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May 22, 2004, 08:58 PM | #1 |
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Great Fun while open carrying
Ok, well. This is my first post here ever... so be nice. I will give the reason I open carry now, before the question gets asked. I open carry because it is my right in Washington State, (if it doesn't get used it will be lost). The next reason I open carry is because I went through 28 years of my life never knowing how many handguns were out there protecting me. I could have easily been ignorant enough to vote for things like the AWB. I never saw a handgun, except the "bad" ones on the news or the "scary" ones on the cops. So, we have hidden the "good" handguns for so many years, ignorant people vote against all guns not realizing they are taking guns out of the lawful citizen's hands, (and only their hands). The next reason I open carry is Washington state does not acknowledge my right to conceal carry, I have to ask permission, be fingerprinted like a criminal and pay for the privledge. The last reason, (which could immediately move to number one with one trigger pull), is defense of life. Self-defense is last on my mind because thanks to all those CCW folks I have lived my life relatively crime-free, thank you!
So, that being answered on with what happened today in Ellensburg, WA. The wife and I walked to the bank to get money for my wife's trip to New Orleans. I was open carrying my handgun as per usual. This was my third time open carrying to this bank, which is inside a Fred Meyer department store. Young teller at the bank decided I was too scary looking after withdrawing money from my account, legally, so he called the police. They caught up with us in Fred Meyer's make-up section. Officer K-9 boy decided to investigate an investigation, (per usual), "this isn't harassment, this is investigating an investigation." No crime being committed he didn't have much to do, so I told him I didn't enjoy his company in the make-up section. He told me to calm down and called out a "code 1." This means all the cops come running for back-up. He had already taken my gun from me. And told me I was making a scene. I asked him, "was a "code 1" really necessary? Five cops coming to harass me is what will make a scene." He told me he only called for one additional unit. Yeah, right. We had 4 more show up, within minutes. They sure are busy these days. So, I am surrounded by officer's giving me their opinion on open carrying, my attitude, and anything else they could come up with. They tried talking with the wife, (who was remaining calm as a cucumber), but didn't get very far, her saying, society has been brainwashed against open carrying. They knew they had nothing on me, but tried to back me into a lie. Asking for a Concealed Weapon permit? I told him I didn't need one for what I was doing. But he asked me again. (Key to that little misdemeanors is if you have a CCW permit and don't tell a cop when he asks for it, then you are breaking a law). I do not have one, so he couldn't get me on that little technicality. (But, he tried). Also, tried to get me on the whole address change crap. "Is this your current address?" Bite me, yes it is. Next was the attempt to get me removed from the store. I knew this was coming too. Congratulations go out to FRED MEYER!!! Cops were trying to get a manager to get me removed from the store for open carrying. Fred Meyer managers wanted none of it, and walked away from the officers. Officer dog boy then went back to the bank to see if he could get the manager there to ban me from open carrying at the bank. He didn't know Washington Mutual corporate policy but made a guess it was against open carrying, (I think the officer encouraged him some on this one). So, they had the bank manager come over and ask me to carry it concealed in his store, (he didn't realize it but he actually said, "you have no right to self-defense in our store.") That being said, officer dog boy gave me my gun back and the army marched out to go protect the donut shop. Citizen's in Washington State don't have a right to carry concealed, we have to ask permission to do that, (although in conversation with one of the other officers he was proud of the fact he was above the law and didn't need a CCW permit, "I'm a police officer, I don't need a CCW when I am off duty." Thank you sir. Would you like me to fetch your slippers for you? This letter is going out to Washington Mutual, although, having already been banned from open carrying at this Washington Mutual, I handed my gun to my wife and went back and closed my account. My wife on the other hand was not banned from open carrying. Hopefully she will get the courage up to open carry when she goes in to close her account as well. Before everyone else does the same, I have sent this letter to Washington Mutual: I want to make sure that this is actually corporate policy instead of made by one of your branch managers. Does Washington Mutual acknowledge the right of customers to Open Carry, in branch offices? Open Carry meaning carrying a handgun unconcealed. I had a manager decide that concealed was ok, but he gave the impression that corporate had policy against open carrying. I live in Washington state where the state acknowledges self-defense, by the right to open carry. Please give me a definitive corp. policy, so I don't jump the gun, (so to speak). Thank you. Sincerely, Jason Hartney UPDATE: Smartly, the Washington Mutual corporate folks already got back to me and said this decision is left up to the branch managers. So, it is only the Ellensburg Branch that I have been banned from open carry. More can be found here |
May 22, 2004, 09:19 PM | #2 |
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Fishorman
I am a life-long resident of Washington State and have been carrying for many years under a CPL. I am very familier with the gun laws in this state. Please direct me to which RCW or WAC allows me to open carry. I hope that you are not relying on the fact that just because there is no wording that actually says "Do not carry openly", that means you are able to. |
May 22, 2004, 09:27 PM | #3 |
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the law
The law does not work that way. You need not have a list of all of the rights for them to be rights. Law doesn't create rights it only takes them away. So, until there is a law that says I cannot carry openly, this state will remain a legal open carry state... Which is exactly what the officer told me today, "it is legal to open carry."
Update: Had the prosecutor relay this information to me as well. Of course, other Washington prosecutors may read from a different law book. So, just go on keeping them hidden, and the public remains ignorant. Last edited by Fishorman; May 22, 2004 at 11:49 PM. |
May 22, 2004, 09:41 PM | #4 |
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Had the same problem in Barnes & Noble in Manchester, NH coming up on two months ago. I posted the details in another thread in this forum.
I got the same condescending BS from five officers, just like you did, and filed a formal complaint with the police department. At least you saw them coming, with me they snuck up on me and grabbed me. The IAD is still looking into it, last me or my attorney heard. Might be time to file a lawsuit, on the 2-month anniversary of the incident. |
May 22, 2004, 10:02 PM | #5 | |
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Quote:
If you don't like the idea of going through the backround check and wish to open carry: more power too ya'! But I think that most WA residents don't consider it an infringement to do so and would consider the constant hassle of open carry to be a pain. I must admit, it's been a long time since I've seen someone open carry. I wasn't even sure that it was still legal. It sure does stir up a fuss though! |
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May 22, 2004, 10:03 PM | #6 |
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Good on ya.
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May 22, 2004, 10:10 PM | #7 |
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Welcome to The Firing Line, Fishorman! I think you'll like it here. You impress me as a Second Amendment "Purist." Our cause needs more good people like you, IMO.
Cactus - I think Jason's point is that if the state issues you a permit to carry concealed, then they have the right to take it away. (Permit comes from the same root word as permission) If it can be taken away, it isn't a right. |
May 22, 2004, 10:13 PM | #8 |
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Fishorman
I do agree with you to some extent on the "You need not have a list of all of the rights for them to be rights. Law doesn't create rights it only takes them away." However, just like the harassment you received, that is what I do not want. I am usually not in the mood to have a confrontation with a group of police let alone one. I do not want to be the test case for Washington State law. I live on the West side and I see the you live on the East. We all know that there are many, many political and social differences between them both. I don't think that I would get too far in Seattle, Tacoma, Lynwood, Everett, etc. openly carrying. The fact that there are no laws that do not specifically allow NOT carrying openly, does not mean there are not laws about, disturbing the peace, inciting a riot, or making treating gestures. Carrying openly around here would get me arrested for one of these types of secondary crimes. Get Dave Workman's book "Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities". He is considered an authority on the laws of this state with reguards to guns. http://www.defensetactics.com/washington_gun_rights.htm Also try looking at Packing.org Washington State is NOT an open carry state. Most websites and authorities I know that address this issue, agree. |
May 22, 2004, 10:32 PM | #9 |
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As has been said many times before.
"A right will remain a right when enough people continue to believe it is a right."
Maybe it is too late for Western Washington. Government will do their best to make it into a disturbing the peace issue. Can't rule over the citizen's if they aren't breaking a law. But someone that wants to be re-elected will have to prosecute that law. Since we are still one state though, we operate by the same set of laws. So setting a precedent for open carrying in Eastern Washington might just help the gun issue with all those "gun banners" living in Western Washington. Besides that open carrying is the right thing to do. 28 years, (my lifetime), of hiding guns has got us where? AWB renewal proposed by a REPUBLICAN president? WT??? Last edited by Fishorman; May 23, 2004 at 06:16 PM. |
May 22, 2004, 10:33 PM | #10 |
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As others have said, when rights are turned into "privileges", they can be easily taken away. Most CCW laws enforce current State rights. Many simple turn those rights into a privilege. Slippery slope there.
Welcome Fishorman. I think we like you. Rich
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May 22, 2004, 11:00 PM | #11 | |
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Cactus you said:
Quote:
Starts to sound less and less like a right and in the eyes of great-great grandfathers wouldn't come close. Besides, how many criminals or mentally incompetent has this "background check", (gun nut register) stopped from conceal carrying? I'm not feeling any safer. Conceal carry is still a right, but it is only a right for the criminals. But then our founding fathers were a bunch of criminals, too. |
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May 22, 2004, 11:09 PM | #12 |
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This requires meditation
You know, whenever I read about guys in Arizona running around with a 1911 on thier hip, it has always made me jealous.
I can see the point of view of those against open carry...don't rock the boat, and also the 'You are giving away your advantage that having a concealed gun gives you' argument. That being said, I have always felt that if more 'normal' people practiced open carry, and non-shooters got used to seeing 'normal' folks with guns on thier hips, then atittudes would change for the better. And by normal, I mean 'their neighbors'. Everyone knows their neighbors are normal. Wachos only live in other towns. But, as a Washington Resident, I guess I have always thought like NINEX19 feels. You know...the laws don't say 'open carry' is okay, so that must mean it's not. Maybe I'll need to rethink that. Some one once told me that open carry in Washington could get you arrested for 'Brandishing'. Perhaps I should contact the Kitsap County Sherrifs Office and try to get their informed opinion of the matter. This is an election year, after all. greg
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May 22, 2004, 11:11 PM | #13 |
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Fishorman
Welcome To TFL !
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May 23, 2004, 01:04 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
The constitution would have to be amended, by a vote of the people, in order for revokation without due cause to happen. Besides, if they could revoke your right to carry concealed at any time, what makes you think they wouldn't revoke the right to open carry as well? The police can also run a records check on you if they see you open carry and give them probable cause, or just stop you and ask you questions as Fishorman discovered. The courts will uphold that every time. Apparently Fishorman doesn't mind the lost time and hassle. Good for him! But I have better things to do with my time and for the cost of a box of ammo every four years, I can avoid the hassle. If someone thinks I'm shredding the constitution, fine; I won't lose any sleep over it. Voting is also a right, so should we not have to register? I've never once heard that arguement. In fact, most conservatives and libertarians I've talked too, think that voters registration should be made MORE stringent, not less. |
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May 23, 2004, 01:25 AM | #15 | ||
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The relevant RCW in this case is 9.41.270:
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May 23, 2004, 01:27 AM | #16 | |
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May 23, 2004, 01:28 AM | #17 | |
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May 23, 2004, 07:09 AM | #18 |
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Fishorman
I do not want to come off sounding rude or unwelcomming. That is not me as a person. We (I) are glad that you are a part of this forum. I am always happy when I see another name from my home state. I would that open carry be acceptable and available to the "average, normal" person as you say it is. It will only bring much wasted time and harassment, neither of which I like. I think that it is great that you are exercising what you think you have as a right. My only fear is that incidents like this through a black cloud over law abiding, pro-gun people and actually makes our cause loose ground. There are correct ways to go about making a change in public perception and laws. Just doing it does not lean well for either. Like I said before. the west side is too far gone to even think about experimenting with this. I am 99% sure I would be arrested for brandishing or something of that line. That would not be a good thing for pro second amendment rights. Most of this side of the Cascades would see the news story as "just another gun wacko" or even know days, possibly even worse. If it is acceptable where you are at, great; go for it. Get other locals there to do it consistantly and it will become the norm. Branch out from there like a rock being thrown in a calm pond. Last edited by NINEX19; May 23, 2004 at 01:16 PM. |
May 23, 2004, 07:38 AM | #19 |
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Open carry is available and acceptable on this side of the mountains, and I intend to keep it that way. I have seen open carrying by more then one persons in recent years. It WAS in Okanogan County, but it also was acceptable. I seem to be welcome enough here in Ellensburg. I have carried across this town about 10 times, and only gotten the third degree twice. If I wasn't the only one doing this, it might be more effective. But if it ends up being only me, so be it. Maybe your town/city doesn't except it, but mine still has a chance. All the more reason this state should be split down the cascades.
By the way, while hiking out in the woods, what law gives me the right to carry openly? NONE. That's right none, cause the right is implied. Take a walk on a dusty horse trail around here and tell me that the right doesn't still exist. more here |
May 23, 2004, 08:25 AM | #20 | |
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Quote:
The Spencer case is also available at my website, fullerzone.net. Might be easier to read there than in this thread. |
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May 23, 2004, 08:31 AM | #21 | |
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Quote:
What class or training course do you have to take to be able to APPLY for the right to vote? Can your right to vote be suspended for voting after a beer or two? Can it be revoked if your wife ACCUSES you of domestic violence? Can the state scrutinize how you vote or if you make others aware of your vote? All voters registration does is prove you are who you say you are and live where you say you liuve, both extremely important aspects of the voting process. All CCW does is attach a condition to a god given right. Would I do what Fishorman has done? Probably no I would most likely wimp out and opt for security and comfort over true freedom and inconvience myself.
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May 23, 2004, 10:35 AM | #22 |
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And imagine how fast state law would get changed if the law prevented everyone subject to a restraining order from voting. It wouldn't last a month. The fact that revocation of the RKBA is permitted without due process (both sides) shows just how marginalized the RKBA has become.
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May 23, 2004, 11:09 AM | #23 |
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Gee, I do that here and all I get is yawned at.
Good for you, sir. Maybe more will follow your example in standing up for their civil rights. No more back of the bus for us! Welcome to TFL!
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May 23, 2004, 12:44 PM | #24 |
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Welcome Jason .... glad to see someone join up with above average cojones!
PA is in same situation .. nothing says it AIN'T possible to open carry but ... as in so many places ..... it won't always avoid the panic buttons being hit by the paranoids when they see it. Local paper had something in it very recently re a guy carrying open and accused of something like ''intimidation'' .... it sure ain't easy these days excercizing rights but ... as so many say - if they are never used the sorta ''melt away''.
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May 23, 2004, 01:25 PM | #25 |
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Well, I am not sure what happened last night/this morning, but I was unable to make it back into the forums for quite awhile. So, I was forced to only post over at my blog... I will now copy that post here. By the way, thanks for all the support/information. Specifically, those not really in favor of me open carrying. Like I said in my original post I still don't think keeping the "good" guns hidden is really helping the cause either. Many people have seen me with my handgun; cashiers, customers, and sadly police. Now, I for one am always very friendly, (well, not with the police so much), and the last thing they usually notice is the gun. I can't imagine that after walking away from those folks, they had a bad impression about guns, (or this gun nut). [The police are another matter. They know handguns are good and legal, but still they want the monoply on them. In that way they have choosen their side.]
Obviously, some of sheep have gotten a bad impression and 911 has been called. But, two 911 calls out of I'm guessing around 50 people seeing a handgun and thinking nothing of it. It still might not be enough to keep up with main stream media, but I am only one person. Here's what I was thinking this morning: RCW 9.41.270 |
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