Dogs and pepper spray

MicroBalrog · June 18, 2004, 03:42 PM

My mother is a mailwoman. She delivers mail in an area with lots of dogs, particularly rottweilers and the like. This results in 2 things:

a)A lot of owners let their dogs (yup, rottweilers) wander around unleashed.

b)Dogs hate me or Mom, so leashed dogs start barking their lungs off whe they smell us approach.

Several people got mauled by these dogs recently in the neigborhood, including one little who died.

I want Mom to get pepperspray. Anybody with suggestions as to brand, method of carry, etc?

IamNOTaNUT · June 18, 2004, 04:30 PM

Let your mom know that pepper spray is not a guarantee that she will not be mauled. Pepper spray works on some dogs, and not on others. It seems to be an inidividual response, on a dog by dog basis. It would seem to me that the local postmaster would be able to suspend mail delivery to the house with the aggressive animal until the dog is contained and unable to hurt the carrier. This happnes inmy neck of the woods once or twice a year. People don't like to have to go to the post office to pick up their mail, so they usually resolve the matter with a dog-pen.

If your state allows, get her a 10% or better concentration of OC and carry it in a belt holster, on the opposite side of her mail pouch so she can access it in an emergency. Note that some states do not allow that strong a concentration. Michigan, for example, forbids a person from carrying more than 2%, which is highly effective against people, but may be lacking against a vicious animal.

Good luck!

MicroBalrog · June 18, 2004, 04:36 PM

IamnotaNUT

You are right, and that is what is done here, however, I worry more about those wandering "unleashed dogs". Also, I've heard that a Rottweiler type thing can sometimes display unexpected aggression.

David Blinder · June 18, 2004, 04:45 PM

Guess I'll have to totally disagree with IamnotaNUT. While nothing should be considered 100%, OC has a very high success rate on dogs. Several years ago, a major police dept issued chemical agents for the 1st time so it was chosen as a test case to see how how effective it was. In over 200 reported dog related events, it worked on all of them. Against humans, it was 93%. On a seperate but related note, the concentration % has nothing to do with effectiveness which is measured by SHU's (Scoville heat units). The higher concentration means that it will take longer for the effects to wear off. I'm certified by five different OC programs but I carry Fox-Labs which is 2% and 5.3 million SHU's.

Quartus · June 18, 2004, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Also, I've heard that a Rottweiler type thing can sometimes display unexpected aggression.

Any dog can.

Fred Hansen · June 18, 2004, 08:24 PM

If you can get pepper spray sent in from the U.S. you might want to get the type designed to deter bears. It is very powerful stuff. www.cabelas.com has some.

Whatever you/she gets, make sure to get two cans and practice with one of them. It will be imperative for the operator of the spray to understand its strengths and weaknesses, and for said operator to ALWAYS be aware of wind direction when employing the spray. If the operator sprays into the wind, and they get hit with their own spray, they will find it very difficult to see/breathe/think which will leave them helpless in front of the attacker two legged or four.

Few dogs are by nature good or bad. But rarely do bad people have good dogs. If the dogs are running loose and undiciplined they should be rounded up, and if no one can rehabilitate them, they should be shot. In front of the owner whenever possible.

As some mother and father found out, dogs can quite easily kill children or even adults. The status quo on unruly dogs in your particular case is completely unacceptable. If the owners/authorities won't do anything, then you and your neighbors should either round up the dogs (and find them suitable homes), or club them in the head with a pick-axe handle (the dogs, not necessarily the owners).

No one loves dogs more than I do, but I cannot abide people who take something designed by God to be such an asset and comfort to humanity, and turn it into a roaming cur that is nothing but a liability.

Get those mutts under cotrol before another human life is destroyed. Do it today. You won't regret it.

TheeBadOne · June 18, 2004, 08:39 PM

USPS employees should be able to get spray from their employer. My mother (retired) use to be issued spray. OC does work pretty well on dogs (environmental factors withstanding, such as wind, terrain).

tcdrennen · June 18, 2004, 09:19 PM

The only time I ever used the pepper I carried while working security at a supermarket strip mall, the dog took a 5 second stream of new police standard issue OC right in the face, mouth, nose and eyes. He stopped, looked at me, licked his chops thoroughly and otherwise took no notice; he seemed to find it tasty!

He was a stray that had wandered into the store and I was trying to herd him out when he flattened his ears, crouched and growled at me. That's when I used the OC.

He calmed down and (using my sidehandle baton to direct him a bit) I managed to get him close enough to the doors that he finally ran out and down the sidewalk.

I must say the complete lack of desired response was dismaying; I have had no confidence in OC since.

TheeBadOne · June 18, 2004, 09:23 PM

Quote:

I must say the complete lack of desired response was dismaying; I have had no confidence in OC since.

He calmed down and (using my sidehandle baton to direct him a bit) I managed to get him close enough to the doors that he finally ran out and down the sidewalk.

Actually, that's the response the spray typically generates. It's like flipping a switch on aggression.

tcdrennen · June 18, 2004, 09:52 PM

Hmmm. He didn't calm down immediately, but he did stop growling long enough to enjoy the flavor, or so it appeared. He was still pretty panicky, but did decide to move away rather than fight, which was all I wanted.

I did expect more of a pain response, actually - in humans, that's supposed to be the effect. I've gotten some on my skin (a cap came off and some leaked through my shirt above my belt one night - NOT pleasant!) I expect had I gotten a faceful I'd have been rolling on the floor whining and rubbing my face, which was what I expected from the dog.

Really, he seemed to be enjoying the flavor, not distressed at all.

TheeBadOne · June 18, 2004, 10:43 PM

I've seen several dogs sprayed. Only one displayed the response you were looking for. The others gave the predicted (by training manual/manufactures info) response, immediate reduction in aggression. One of the first dogs I saw sprayed had it's lips curled back exposing it's teeth and leap to attack. A stream of OC hit it letter perfect in the face. It stopped and it's lips dropped over it's gums and the head hung down. It seemed like someone had just flipped a switch on it's overt aggression. The other dogs I saw sprayed displayed a similar response, loosing interest in attacking.

Dusty Miller · June 19, 2004, 02:49 AM

Back in the days of my youth I was a meter reader for Southern California Edison company. One day I entered a back yard to read the meter and while doing so was approached by a large doberman male. When he got to within about ten feet of me I hit the panic button and nailed him with my OC spray. He stopped immediately, spread his legs, and ****** on the ground. I was later told that dobermans typically approach rather quietly and then really go to work on the unsuspecting victem. I told the home owner and got the hell out of there. Since that time I've rather favored pepper spray!

CastleBravo · June 19, 2004, 09:15 AM

I'd say "ditto" to the suggesting of getting BEAR spray if you can.

Quartus · June 19, 2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

USPS employees should be able to get spray from their employer

Which is relevant to someone in Israel..... How?

MicroBalrog · June 19, 2004, 10:01 AM

Quartus, it is relevant. Israel Postal Authority employees do get issued with pepper spray. So was Mom. But it was half a year past expiration date.

TheeBadOne · June 19, 2004, 06:40 PM

So there!

UnforgivenII · June 19, 2004, 07:25 PM

to the people in mighigan or to where ever else it might be illegal for a civilian to carry higher than 2% spray, I would suggest that you check out Freeze Plus P. It's 1% cs and 1% oc. While this seems awful weak it isn't. The cs plays off the oc and makes it 20 times worse.

Quartus · June 19, 2004, 07:43 PM

<sigh>

Where's the NEENER smiley on this new software, anyway?

19114EVER · June 19, 2004, 09:16 PM

A buddy of mine is PD and he entered an apartment complex only to find himself confronted by the tenant's irate dog. He doused it with OC, it lunched to attack him, but ran off after he drop kicked it across the hall. OC is ok, but a good old fashioned size 12 does the trick every time.

joab · June 19, 2004, 09:38 PM

My only experience with spraying a dog got me 15 stitches in my butt.
I did not use pepper or OC so that may be why.
I used an aerosol pesticide called Orthene 280. I have been sprayed with pepper and spent time in an Army CS chamber, and sprayed in the face with Orthene before.
The peper spray just disoriented me pretty much, the CS burned and I think I coughed up a lung, but the Orthene dropped me to the ground in total pain it felt like somebody had shoved their thumb up to the 3rd knuckle into my eyes.
I would think that a dog would have a similar sensation but I am no expert. Since all it did for me was irritate the holy hell out of an already ****** off Pit/Boxer mix

Quartus · June 20, 2004, 10:45 AM

Quote:

a good old fashioned size 12 does the trick every time.

Only if you connect. Boot placement is everything - size doesn't make much differece. Any boot will do if YOU will!

Fred Hansen · June 20, 2004, 11:20 AM

Are the mongrels rounded up and/or dead yet? That's really the only question I have.

yankytrash · June 20, 2004, 12:20 PM

I realize this sounds comical, but her best bet is a small fire extiguisher and/or an aerosol airhorn. Dumb animals are scared of loud or overly confusing things.

As I sit alone quietly in my basement typing this...

UnforgivenII · June 23, 2004, 04:14 PM

I've heard the oc isn't that bad by itself and the cs is pretty bad on the lungs but trust me, when the two are mixed together in a spray it hurts...I couldn't open my eyes for 30 mins after washing the stuff off..... I also didn't feel the fan that fell on my nose lol.

Quartus · June 23, 2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Dumb animals are scared of loud or overly confusing things.

yankytrash, I think you're on to something! You may have just answered The Big Question!.....

"Why do liberals hate guns?"

June 18, 2004, 03:42 PM	#1
MicroBalrog Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2002 Posts: 1,169	Dogs and pepper spray My mother is a mailwoman. She delivers mail in an area with lots of dogs, particularly rottweilers and the like. This results in 2 things: a)A lot of owners let their dogs (yup, rottweilers) wander around unleashed. b)Dogs hate me or Mom, so leashed dogs start barking their lungs off whe they smell us approach. Several people got mauled by these dogs recently in the neigborhood, including one little who died. I want Mom to get pepperspray. Anybody with suggestions as to brand, method of carry, etc? __________________ NFAOA Repeal 922(o)!

June 18, 2004, 04:30 PM	#2
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	Let your mom know that pepper spray is not a guarantee that she will not be mauled. Pepper spray works on some dogs, and not on others. It seems to be an inidividual response, on a dog by dog basis. It would seem to me that the local postmaster would be able to suspend mail delivery to the house with the aggressive animal until the dog is contained and unable to hurt the carrier. This happnes inmy neck of the woods once or twice a year. People don't like to have to go to the post office to pick up their mail, so they usually resolve the matter with a dog-pen. If your state allows, get her a 10% or better concentration of OC and carry it in a belt holster, on the opposite side of her mail pouch so she can access it in an emergency. Note that some states do not allow that strong a concentration. Michigan, for example, forbids a person from carrying more than 2%, which is highly effective against people, but may be lacking against a vicious animal. Good luck! __________________ IamNOTaNUT I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might. NRA

June 18, 2004, 04:36 PM	#3
MicroBalrog Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2002 Posts: 1,169	IamnotaNUT You are right, and that is what is done here, however, I worry more about those wandering "unleashed dogs". Also, I've heard that a Rottweiler type thing can sometimes display unexpected aggression. __________________ NFAOA Repeal 922(o)!

June 18, 2004, 04:45 PM	#4
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Norcross, GA USA Posts: 325	Guess I'll have to totally disagree with IamnotaNUT. While nothing should be considered 100%, OC has a very high success rate on dogs. Several years ago, a major police dept issued chemical agents for the 1st time so it was chosen as a test case to see how how effective it was. In over 200 reported dog related events, it worked on all of them. Against humans, it was 93%. On a seperate but related note, the concentration % has nothing to do with effectiveness which is measured by SHU's (Scoville heat units). The higher concentration means that it will take longer for the effects to wear off. I'm certified by five different OC programs but I carry Fox-Labs which is 2% and 5.3 million SHU's. __________________ David Blinder www.personaldefensetraining.com

June 18, 2004, 08:24 PM	#6
Fred Hansen Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: The middle of WWIII Posts: 3,340	If you can get pepper spray sent in from the U.S. you might want to get the type designed to deter bears. It is very powerful stuff. www.cabelas.com has some. Whatever you/she gets, make sure to get two cans and practice with one of them. It will be imperative for the operator of the spray to understand its strengths and weaknesses, and for said operator to ALWAYS be aware of wind direction when employing the spray. If the operator sprays into the wind, and they get hit with their own spray, they will find it very difficult to see/breathe/think which will leave them helpless in front of the attacker two legged or four. Few dogs are by nature good or bad. But rarely do bad people have good dogs. If the dogs are running loose and undiciplined they should be rounded up, and if no one can rehabilitate them, they should be shot. In front of the owner whenever possible. As some mother and father found out, dogs can quite easily kill children or even adults. The status quo on unruly dogs in your particular case is completely unacceptable. If the owners/authorities won't do anything, then you and your neighbors should either round up the dogs (and find them suitable homes), or club them in the head with a pick-axe handle (the dogs, not necessarily the owners). No one loves dogs more than I do, but I cannot abide people who take something designed by God to be such an asset and comfort to humanity, and turn it into a roaming cur that is nothing but a liability. Get those mutts under cotrol before another human life is destroyed. Do it today. You won't regret it. __________________ "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" Michael Moore

June 18, 2004, 08:39 PM	#7
TheeBadOne Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,200	USPS employees should be able to get spray from their employer. My mother (retired) use to be issued spray. OC does work pretty well on dogs (environmental factors withstanding, such as wind, terrain).

June 18, 2004, 09:19 PM	#8
tcdrennen Member Join Date: December 17, 2002 Location: Tustin, Orange County, PDR of Kalifornistan Posts: 50	The only time I ever used the pepper I carried while working security at a supermarket strip mall, the dog took a 5 second stream of new police standard issue OC right in the face, mouth, nose and eyes. He stopped, looked at me, licked his chops thoroughly and otherwise took no notice; he seemed to find it tasty! He was a stray that had wandered into the store and I was trying to herd him out when he flattened his ears, crouched and growled at me. That's when I used the OC. He calmed down and (using my sidehandle baton to direct him a bit) I managed to get him close enough to the doors that he finally ran out and down the sidewalk. I must say the complete lack of desired response was dismaying; I have had no confidence in OC since. __________________ An Armed society is a polite society. An Unarmed society is a police state. A Disarmed society is a tyranny.

June 18, 2004, 09:52 PM	#10
tcdrennen Member Join Date: December 17, 2002 Location: Tustin, Orange County, PDR of Kalifornistan Posts: 50	Hmmm. He didn't calm down immediately, but he did stop growling long enough to enjoy the flavor, or so it appeared. He was still pretty panicky, but did decide to move away rather than fight, which was all I wanted. I did expect more of a pain response, actually - in humans, that's supposed to be the effect. I've gotten some on my skin (a cap came off and some leaked through my shirt above my belt one night - NOT pleasant!) I expect had I gotten a faceful I'd have been rolling on the floor whining and rubbing my face, which was what I expected from the dog. Really, he seemed to be enjoying the flavor, not distressed at all. __________________ An Armed society is a polite society. An Unarmed society is a police state. A Disarmed society is a tyranny.

June 18, 2004, 10:43 PM	#11
TheeBadOne Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,200	I've seen several dogs sprayed. Only one displayed the response you were looking for. The others gave the predicted (by training manual/manufactures info) response, immediate reduction in aggression. One of the first dogs I saw sprayed had it's lips curled back exposing it's teeth and leap to attack. A stream of OC hit it letter perfect in the face. It stopped and it's lips dropped over it's gums and the head hung down. It seemed like someone had just flipped a switch on it's overt aggression. The other dogs I saw sprayed displayed a similar response, loosing interest in attacking.

June 19, 2004, 02:49 AM	#12
Dusty Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 262	Back in the days of my youth I was a meter reader for Southern California Edison company. One day I entered a back yard to read the meter and while doing so was approached by a large doberman male. When he got to within about ten feet of me I hit the panic button and nailed him with my OC spray. He stopped immediately, spread his legs, and ****** on the ground. I was later told that dobermans typically approach rather quietly and then really go to work on the unsuspecting victem. I told the home owner and got the hell out of there. Since that time I've rather favored pepper spray!

June 19, 2004, 09:15 AM	#13
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 2,017	I'd say "ditto" to the suggesting of getting BEAR spray if you can. __________________ Sean Smith Visit The Pit for absolutely no good reason! "Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that?" -Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

June 19, 2004, 10:01 AM	#15
MicroBalrog Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2002 Posts: 1,169	Quartus, it is relevant. Israel Postal Authority employees do get issued with pepper spray. So was Mom. But it was half a year past expiration date. __________________ NFAOA Repeal 922(o)!

June 19, 2004, 06:40 PM	#16
TheeBadOne Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,200	So there!

June 19, 2004, 07:25 PM	#17
UnforgivenII Member Join Date: June 3, 2004 Posts: 57	to the people in mighigan or to where ever else it might be illegal for a civilian to carry higher than 2% spray, I would suggest that you check out Freeze Plus P. It's 1% cs and 1% oc. While this seems awful weak it isn't. The cs plays off the oc and makes it 20 times worse.

June 19, 2004, 07:43 PM	#18
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,838	<sigh> Where's the NEENER smiley on this new software, anyway? __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

June 19, 2004, 09:16 PM	#19
19114EVER Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 148	A buddy of mine is PD and he entered an apartment complex only to find himself confronted by the tenant's irate dog. He doused it with OC, it lunched to attack him, but ran off after he drop kicked it across the hall. OC is ok, but a good old fashioned size 12 does the trick every time.

June 19, 2004, 09:38 PM	#20
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	My only experience with spraying a dog got me 15 stitches in my butt. I did not use pepper or OC so that may be why. I used an aerosol pesticide called Orthene 280. I have been sprayed with pepper and spent time in an Army CS chamber, and sprayed in the face with Orthene before. The peper spray just disoriented me pretty much, the CS burned and I think I coughed up a lung, but the Orthene dropped me to the ground in total pain it felt like somebody had shoved their thumb up to the 3rd knuckle into my eyes. I would think that a dog would have a similar sensation but I am no expert. Since all it did for me was irritate the holy hell out of an already ****** off Pit/Boxer mix __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing

June 20, 2004, 11:20 AM	#22
Fred Hansen Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: The middle of WWIII Posts: 3,340	Are the mongrels rounded up and/or dead yet? That's really the only question I have. __________________ "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" Michael Moore

June 20, 2004, 12:20 PM	#23
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,176	I realize this sounds comical, but her best bet is a small fire extiguisher and/or an aerosol airhorn. Dumb animals are scared of loud or overly confusing things. As I sit alone quietly in my basement typing this... __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

June 23, 2004, 04:14 PM	#24
UnforgivenII Member Join Date: June 3, 2004 Posts: 57	I've heard the oc isn't that bad by itself and the cs is pretty bad on the lungs but trust me, when the two are mixed together in a spray it hurts...I couldn't open my eyes for 30 mins after washing the stuff off..... I also didn't feel the fan that fell on my nose lol.