readers might find the following of interest

alan · October 7, 2004, 10:43 PM

ACTION ALERT

October 7, 2004

The U.S. House is debating and will soon vote on H.R. 10, the 9/11 Recommendations Implementation Act. This 542-page bill is so full of "hastily- and ill-conceived anti-gun, anti-freedom provisions" (Larry Pratt, Gun Owners of America) that you would need hours to learn them all. But thanks to an exhaustive analysis done by Gun Owners of America, we know the following critical points:

1. H.R. 10 takes the final step to establish the driver's license as a national ID card.
2. H.R. 10 authorizes the establishment of an enormous database containing personal information on American citizens.

H.R. 10-SECTION 3052 (NATIONAL ID): This section would take the final step toward establishing the driver's license as a national ID card. Attorneys from groups ranging from the conservative Gun Owners of America and the National Taxpayers Union to the liberal American Civil Liberties Union have reached the same conclusion.

As the Washington Times reported today, "More than 30 advocacy, civil liberties and conservative groups sent letters to every senator Sept. 20 predicting that the September 11 commission report would lead to a national ID card and asked that it be rejected." H.R. 10 contains a national ID card provision, section 3052.

H.R. 10-SECTION 2173 (NATIONAL DATABASES): This section would explicitly authorize an enormous national database of private information on American citizens; including financial records and, potentially, medical records. And -- to the very end -- regulators fought to be allowed to maintain this database, not just on suspected terrorists, but on every American.

In addition to creating a national ID card and database:

1. H.R. 10 will seek more integration of our foreign policy with that of the U.N. (Section 4032).
2. H.R. 10 will train U.S. diplomats to be more attuned with the United Nations and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and other anti-democratic globalist organizations (Section 4034). The OSCE will be sending over 100 foreign observers to monitor the U.S. elections on Nov. 2, as reported by the Washington Times today.
3. H.R. 10 will create a new U.S. "ambassador-at-large" to work with U.N. nongovernmental organizations or NGOs. This would set a very dangerous precedent (Section 4035).

We could go on, but won't.

According to Congressman Ron Paul, "The 9-11 Recommendation Implementation bill (HR 10) is yet another attempt to address the threat of terrorism by giving more money and power to the federal bureaucracy. The result of most of the reforms contained in this bill will not likely be a safer America, but will definitely be a less free America."

And as Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America stated, "...this bill is not about 'security' or 'terrorism,' but about political posturing in an election year -- at the expense of individual liberties."

We strongly oppose H.R. 10 and ask you to urge your U.S. representative to vote "no" on final passage of H.R. 10. To send your message, go to http://capwiz.com/liberty/issues/ale...525316&type=CO

Kent Snyder
The Liberty Committee
http://www.thelibertycommittee.org

**tyme** · October 7, 2004, 11:42 PM

Full section listing:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.10:

alan · October 8, 2004, 10:53 PM

Tyme:

Browsed through the proposal listed at the link you provided, and am left with a number of questions, chief amongst which are the following.

What do think the liklehood of any congress critter actually having read the text might be??

The proverbial 4 CHANCES come to mind, they being, SLIM, FAT, LITTLE AND NO.

**tyme** · October 8, 2004, 11:50 PM

Maybe Ron Paul?

Given that it's a relatively important bill, I would think most other senators have read bits of it, those bits selected for attention by the Congressperson's staffers or by lobbyists.

So... 1, maybe? Congresspeople have people to meet and lunches and dinners to attend, and photo-ops and campaigning to do. You can't expect them to read all the legislation they pass, can you?

alan · October 9, 2004, 10:47 PM

Tyme:

You wrote the following: "So... 1, maybe? Congresspeople have people to meet and lunches and dinners to attend, and photo-ops and campaigning to do. You can't expect them to read all the legislation they pass, can you?"

In the past, I had been described as a hard headed S.O.B. among other, less complimentary things, but I'm given to ask the following question. WHAT ARE WE PAYING THESE PEOPLE TO DO ANYHOW???

Also, while these days retired, at one time or another, I had to sign my name to various documents, and I'll note in passing that I was paid a whole lot less than comgressmenwomen and senators are paid, and that I didn't have any sort of "staff" at my beck and call, as do these congress critters. I never signed anything that I hadn't read through, and at least thought that I fully understood.

As it turned out, sometimes I was wrong, but I NEVER complained, having signed something, when things got sticky later on, that "I hadn't known that that (whatever that turned out to be) was there. Perhaps Dr. Paul did read the thing, which I believe might have passed the House (HR 10)

**tyme** · October 10, 2004, 03:41 AM

It passed the House, and the Judiciary Committee has a bit over a month to file a supplementary report, whatever the frell that is. Ron Paul did not vote on it, and it passed 282-134.

Quote:

In the past, I had been described as a hard headed S.O.B. among other, less complimentary things, but I'm given to ask the following question. WHAT ARE WE PAYING THESE PEOPLE TO DO ANYHOW???

We're buying their lives.

October 7, 2004, 10:43 PM	#1
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,284	readers might find the following of interest ACTION ALERT October 7, 2004 The U.S. House is debating and will soon vote on H.R. 10, the 9/11 Recommendations Implementation Act. This 542-page bill is so full of "hastily- and ill-conceived anti-gun, anti-freedom provisions" (Larry Pratt, Gun Owners of America) that you would need hours to learn them all. But thanks to an exhaustive analysis done by Gun Owners of America, we know the following critical points: 1. H.R. 10 takes the final step to establish the driver's license as a national ID card. 2. H.R. 10 authorizes the establishment of an enormous database containing personal information on American citizens. H.R. 10-SECTION 3052 (NATIONAL ID): This section would take the final step toward establishing the driver's license as a national ID card. Attorneys from groups ranging from the conservative Gun Owners of America and the National Taxpayers Union to the liberal American Civil Liberties Union have reached the same conclusion. As the Washington Times reported today, "More than 30 advocacy, civil liberties and conservative groups sent letters to every senator Sept. 20 predicting that the September 11 commission report would lead to a national ID card and asked that it be rejected." H.R. 10 contains a national ID card provision, section 3052. H.R. 10-SECTION 2173 (NATIONAL DATABASES): This section would explicitly authorize an enormous national database of private information on American citizens; including financial records and, potentially, medical records. And -- to the very end -- regulators fought to be allowed to maintain this database, not just on suspected terrorists, but on every American. In addition to creating a national ID card and database: 1. H.R. 10 will seek more integration of our foreign policy with that of the U.N. (Section 4032). 2. H.R. 10 will train U.S. diplomats to be more attuned with the United Nations and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and other anti-democratic globalist organizations (Section 4034). The OSCE will be sending over 100 foreign observers to monitor the U.S. elections on Nov. 2, as reported by the Washington Times today. 3. H.R. 10 will create a new U.S. "ambassador-at-large" to work with U.N. nongovernmental organizations or NGOs. This would set a very dangerous precedent (Section 4035). We could go on, but won't. According to Congressman Ron Paul, "The 9-11 Recommendation Implementation bill (HR 10) is yet another attempt to address the threat of terrorism by giving more money and power to the federal bureaucracy. The result of most of the reforms contained in this bill will not likely be a safer America, but will definitely be a less free America." And as Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America stated, "...this bill is not about 'security' or 'terrorism,' but about political posturing in an election year -- at the expense of individual liberties." We strongly oppose H.R. 10 and ask you to urge your U.S. representative to vote "no" on final passage of H.R. 10. To send your message, go to http://capwiz.com/liberty/issues/ale...525316&type=CO Kent Snyder The Liberty Committee http://www.thelibertycommittee.org

October 7, 2004, 11:42 PM	#2
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Location: Novalis 978-0553586251 Posts: 2,569	Full section listing: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.10: __________________ Support Range Voting. Did you know: Food libel laws prevent open discussion of concerns about food products.

October 8, 2004, 11:50 PM	#4
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Location: Novalis 978-0553586251 Posts: 2,569	Maybe Ron Paul? Given that it's a relatively important bill, I would think most other senators have read bits of it, those bits selected for attention by the Congressperson's staffers or by lobbyists. So... 1, maybe? Congresspeople have people to meet and lunches and dinners to attend, and photo-ops and campaigning to do. You can't expect them to read all the legislation they pass, can you? __________________ Support Range Voting. Did you know: Food libel laws prevent open discussion of concerns about food products.

October 8, 2004, 10:53 PM	#3
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,284	Tyme: Browsed through the proposal listed at the link you provided, and am left with a number of questions, chief amongst which are the following. What do think the liklehood of any congress critter actually having read the text might be?? The proverbial 4 CHANCES come to mind, they being, SLIM, FAT, LITTLE AND NO.

October 9, 2004, 10:47 PM	#5
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,284	Tyme: You wrote the following: "So... 1, maybe? Congresspeople have people to meet and lunches and dinners to attend, and photo-ops and campaigning to do. You can't expect them to read all the legislation they pass, can you?" In the past, I had been described as a hard headed S.O.B. among other, less complimentary things, but I'm given to ask the following question. WHAT ARE WE PAYING THESE PEOPLE TO DO ANYHOW??? Also, while these days retired, at one time or another, I had to sign my name to various documents, and I'll note in passing that I was paid a whole lot less than comgressmenwomen and senators are paid, and that I didn't have any sort of "staff" at my beck and call, as do these congress critters. I never signed anything that I hadn't read through, and at least thought that I fully understood. As it turned out, sometimes I was wrong, but I NEVER complained, having signed something, when things got sticky later on, that "I hadn't known that that (whatever that turned out to be) was there. Perhaps Dr. Paul did read the thing, which I believe might have passed the House (HR 10)