.380acp... myth or reality?

[johndavid400]

C'mon guys... I am kind of having a hard time believing all the hype that the .380acp round is not a sufficient round for self defense. It seems like almost everyone says that the .380 is too small to take care of a possible attacker, and I am sure that someone will reply to this thread with a link to some story about some guy trying to stop a bad guy with a .380... and the bad guy keeps on coming at him. But I will also push those of you who would reply in this manner to look this thread on TFL URL=http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=806]amazing story [/URL], where the guy shot a BG in the right side of his chest with his .45 Colt 1911 and the guy kept coming at him. So if a .45 to the chest can't stop a guy pumped with adrenaline... what can? And if your next argument is 'shot placement', would a well placed .380 not take someone out (say the heart, or head) ??? Furthermore, a .22lr hollowpoint will flare out to almost the size of a dime upon impact (I know this from experience)... if a .22lr had enough power to go through the skull, it would not be a pretty picture for the guy that got shot.

Basically what I am saying is that if you think about it, all this badmouthing of smaller calibers is kind of all theory, is it not? If you are so sure that a .380 wouldnt kill you, then let someone shoot you with one.... exactly. Heck, I wouldn't let you shoot me with a .22lr... not for a million bucks. You hear about Accidental Discharges killing kids and innocent people that improperly handle their .22's. There was even a thread on TFL a week or so ago about an ex-cop in new york that accidentally dropped his .380 and it fired upon impact, killing the clerk at the deli he was eating at.... A.D.!!! HE wasn't even aiming!!
Anyways, I know you guys that feel that the .380acp (and smaller) is inferior, don't mean any harm... it just makes me wonder whether or not there are people on here that decide against buying their gun of choice because they read on TFL that you can unload on a BG with a .380 and he will most definitely still be coming at you.

I am a victim of this hype. I used to carry a Beretta tomcat 3032, but sold it to buy an XD-9 9mm. I sacrificed the most comfortable carry gun I've ever used for more power. I'm not saying that I regret the switch, but now that I think of it, it seemed a little unnecessary. Given a .380 is not as powerful as a 9mm, I'm saying that it is still a very lethal weapon, and is severely under-rated by the people on this forum, IMO.

Forgive me, I just have to explore both sides of the story.

[IM_Lugger]

I think .380 is 'enough' for self defence. I also believe that a .22lr can easily kill someone. I'm not saing that someone shot with a .380 will be thrown back 10 yards, but a .45acp woun't do it eather.

Last week I heard on the news that 21,000 people in USA get injured every year by BB guns. And keap in mind that real guns are 100's of times as powerfull

[Double Naught Spy]

Well johndavid400, it really doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what I think. All that matters is what the bad guy you shoot is thinking or is able to keep thinking. Various shooting report data seem to indicate that folks shot with .380 often manage to keep thinking and keep acting for some time, more often than with larger or more powerful calibers.

Any predictive outcomes for caliber performance are theoretical until applied. You don't know if the person is going to be stopped when you shoot him until after he is shot. That is why we look to historical or actual information to see how things have performed in hopes that they will give an indication of how they are likely to perform in the future. It is not an exact science, but going with a smaller caliber or less powerful caliber does not appear to be the way to increase your odds of stopping your opposition.

Calibers do not care if they are badmouthed. My guess is that if you are being defense about .380 as a good self defense round, then you apparently need to prove something to yourself and you are hoping to do this with this thread. In other words, the fact that you feel the need to make the argument that the caliber is good enough seems to be a real attempt at convincing yourself. The rest of us don't care what you carry.

It is your call. You carry what you want. Remember, bad guys don't read gun rags and don't always know that they are to stop and lay down when they get shot.

[Haycreek]

IMHO, the 380 is a good concealment round---if--- it is carried in the right handgun. A handgun such as the CZ 83 is a very good defensive pistol. I believe that one of the problems with the 380, is that it is often carried in a very small, short barreled pocket pistol, which may not be fired accurately. I sometimes carry the CZ 83 instead of a Glock or 1911. I will be first to agree that the CZ 83 is not as powerful as either the Glock or 1911, but the CZ 83 is just as accurate as either, The CZ fits my hand so good that it is more accurate with two or three rounds, in a shorter time frame than either the Glock or 1911. HITS COUNT ! Fact is, we are more hyped about magnums and 45's here in our country, than folks in other countries. Different handguns for different occasions. A 44 mag is my wild hog hunting handgun. I like them all

[johndavid400]

well maybe thats why I find it hard to believe... I have never heard a story where the bad guy was shot by a .380 and kept attacking. I have nothing to prove, I own a .380, but I carry my 9mm.

I'm just wondering why when a guy is asking advice for a .380 carry gun, there is always about 3 or 4 people telling him not to buy a sissy little .380 because it won't do any good; I mean, think what you want... just don't force your arguable opinions on others, thats all.

Couldn't agree with you more haycreek.

[JohnKSa]

It'll stop someone if you hit them right with the right ammo.

There are failure to stop stories about every common self-defense round.

[Ala Dan]

Not trying to be a wise guy or anything, but a quality* .380
ACP in my trained hands, and a perp is in deep doo doo!

*FootNote: Bersa Thunder, Walther PPK or PPK/S, SIG P230 or P232
Beretta models 84,85, or 86, Mauser Hsc

Best Wishes,

[ampleworks]

I do agree proper training can have a ton to do with whether a 380 would stop someone or not but looking at ballistics data it just looks too much like a 22 to me. However, I can see me packing a Bersa Thunder if it comes down to concealability. Lower magazine capacity and weaker ammunition makes one be quite a bit more careful about shot placement.

380 CCI Blazer 95gr JHP

Muzzle/50yd/100yd
Velocity 980/900/836
Energy 192/162/140
-----
22LR CCI Mini-Mag HP 36gr GLHP

Muzzle/50yd/100yd
Velocity 1260/1118/1035
Energy 127/100/86
-----
9mm CCI Blazer 115gr JHP

Muzzle/50yd/100yd
Velocity 1145/1029/951
Energy 335/271/231

[croyance]

A .45 ACP can't stop a guy if it is put in the wrong place. The thorax is full of places where a guy can temporarily take a bullet. The extra diameter gives you a slightly higher margin of error. The extra weight gives you more penetration, increasing your chances of hitting something vital. The extra velocity does the same and adds to the chances of good expansion.
The added power adds some shock, which, if it hits the right bundle of nerves will give a pain reaction.

There is no magic bullet that does it all. Handguns especially are a compromise. You just have better chances with some than others. Where your minimum performance standard is entirely your choise.

[LAK]

A reservation I have over .380s applies equally to the .38 Special; the ability to defeat tactical barriers. Additionally with the .380, because bullets are on the light side, I would only load them with hardball to ensure adequate penetration in tissue.

[Brick]

In 1904 Thompson and Col. Louis A. LaGarde conducted tests to find the caliber most suited for military handgun ammunition. The tests included firing shots into live cattle at a Chicago slaughterhouse, and into human cadavers obtained from medical schools. The conclusion? Large and slow moving bullets of about .45 caliber were much more destructive than smaller bullets moving at high velocity. With this knowledge in hand, Thompson was instrumental in developing the .45 caliber rimless cartridge, later adopted for use in the Colt Model 1911 pistol designed by John Browning. Eventually this same cartridge would be chambered in Thompson's Submachine gun.

http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/

Maybe. But the problem is that someone hears massive publicity about that guy who kept coming after being hit with a 9mm, then everyone hates the 9mm. But what about those instances where a suspect pulled a .22 on a cop and the round entered on the cop's side and bounced around in his ribcage? And then the cop pulled a .357 Magnum let loose...the bad guy lived.

[Danindetroit]

.380 ACP Hornady 90gr XTP JHP the fbi gave this bullet an optimal rating when shot out of a Beretta 85, 3.8" bbl 10 rd Avg. Velocity: 1013 fps, into denim covered ballistic gelatin to simulate a person wearing clothes. On bare gelatin it was marginal.

Marginal - average bullet penetration is between 9- and 12- inches.
Optimal - average bullet penetration is between 12- and 16-inches.

I saw that this round is still offered by hornady.

Hornady says out of a 3 inch barrel they get 1000 fps.

[Arc Angel]

Let’s see? I don’t think there is any handgun caliber that will guarantee a stop against a, ‘pumped opponent’. I’ve been shot in the ankle with a 22LR. It hurt like the dickens when it hit and knocked me, clean, off my feet. I, also, took a glancing shot to the skull; (I know; it explains a lot!) it definitely took me out of the fight. I once knew a coworker who accidentally shot himself with his own gun at lunchtime. He got hit in the lower abdomen; and I didn’t see a whole lot of fight in him afterwards. I’d have to conclude that an individual’s psychological state-of-mind has a lot to do with being stopped by any bullet; but, particularly, all bullets traveling slower than 1,500/1,600 fps.

Neither am I a great believer in what I like to call the, ‘hollow-point’ myth. Never shot a person with a hollow-point; but I’ve dropped my fair share of game animals; and there have been any number of times when hollow-points have mushroomed beautifully and penetrated very little in the process. Hollow-points seem to work well on soft-skinned targets like people; but, you have to remember things, sometimes, get in the way. (Like Teddy Roosevelt’s speech papers rolled up in his vest pocket!)

Then there’s the large volume of information available about the April 1986 Miami shootout. Early on Michael Platt took a solid hit from a 9mm handgun round. Forensic analysis later concluded that this wound was NOT survivable; but, carrying it, Platt continued to take the fight forward and went on to shoot multiple FBI agents. If a man isn’t willing to, ‘lie down’ your pistol bullet(s) may not be able to convince him, soon enough, that he’s supposed to be, either, dead or out of the fight.

I’ve tried using a 44 magnum in handgun competition. Forget about, ‘Dirty Harry’. Even loaded at 44 Special velocities, the 44 magnum is difficult to control and slow – too slow to post a decent score with. So what do I carry? Well, everything that’s already been mentioned. Usually it’s some combination of 45acp and 32acp. Often it’s a 357 magnum and 32acp. (I like the 357; it hits hard and shoots straight for me; but, in a revolver, it’s also slow on repetitive shots; and I wouldn’t want to have to face more than one opponent at a time with it.) On Sundays I’ll often have a 380 auto under my suit jacket. Many years ago I, occasionally, carried a small 22LR revolver. I stopped after an incident with 4 very large men and a baseball bat. (The guy with the bat was, definitely, better armed than I was.)

Earlier this week I was shooting in an IDPA match. Some of the guys were complaining about one stage where we had to make frequent head shots. The rhythm was two to the torso and one to the head. At another stage, we had to make frequent magazine changes in order to finish the run. Granted this is a, ‘gun game’; but I have to say, in my opinion, it’s a good one. Boredom and creativity aside, during these, ‘gun games’ I’ve picked up any number of subtle little points that, someday, may help me to protect myself. Sure Jeff Cooper’s right: ‘If you need to make a magazine change in a gunfight, you’re already in a world of trouble!’ Nevertheless, we all need to understand the technique and mechanics of magazine changes.

Here’s the way I’ve come to see things: It’s annoying as the dickens to have to suddenly, ‘run dry’ and need to make a magazine switch in a gunfight. Personally my own concentration tends to go to … . Consequently I have long had the tendency to keep, at least, a running pattern of the number of shots I’ve fired. Yeah, I know, you can’t do that in a gunfight; I, also, realize that there’s no accurate way to determine what some people can (and will) do in a fight. During, ‘gun games’ I tend to count my shots; this way it’s easier for me to remember where I am, and what I’m supposed to be doing BEFORE my magazine runs out.

Does this technique always work for me? No, not always; but it does work often enough for me to constantly attempt to use it. The results I get are always better; and, in all honesty, I have never found it to be that hard to keep a running count on 10 rounds fired over a few seconds of time. Now if I had to slow fire each shot, one at a time, that might be tougher; but, heck, one’s, two’s, or three’s consistently going off ain’t that tough to follow.

As for all those head shots, well, personally I like them! As a matter of fact the more I pull the trigger the stronger my tendency is to go for the head. The closer a target is to me, the stronger my tendency is to, again, go for the head. These are some of the reasons, ‘Why’ I travel so far to shoot IDPA. No, it’s NOT the real world; but these, ‘make believe’ gun fighting scenarios introduce just enough stress and confusion to make these training efforts worthwhile for me.

In a practical sense, you get to watch a lot of different people shoot during a, ‘gun game’ match. I find it interesting to note that time is, almost, an irrelevant consideration. Sure time restrictions make for a better match and improve the perception of artificial stress; but, whenever, I watch a decent shooter move down the line, hitting what he’s aiming at, it’s obvious to me that while this person isn’t going to win the match, he would, nonetheless, be a truly dangerous opponent in a real life gunfight. Fact is I wouldn’t want any, ‘consistent hitter’ shooting AT ME – period!

It’s, also, apparent to me that you have to be, ‘comfortable’ with whatever weapon you’re using, and have some sense of appreciation for what it can and cannot be expected to do. I’ve long stressed the concept of, ‘vertical shooting’. Whenever I have a new student, one of the first things I try to get him to do is vertically line up his groups. One of the reasons I do this is because the really vulnerable – highly stoppable – targets on a human being are all centered around the vertical line of the backbone between the groin and the head. Vertical shot disbursement doesn’t bother me; in fact, I prefer it! Horizontal shot disbursement, on the other hand, annoys me because I fully realize, ‘What’ it might represent to my own personal safety in a real gunfight.

If the fight ends up coming straight at you, I think I’d prefer to slow down and hold back for a head shot. At, ‘kissing distance’ I’d even settle for giving the other guy a good dose of muzzle blast in the face or ear. Then I guess everything’s about the reasons, ‘Why’ you spent all those years in a dojo!

Let’s, also, take the time to remember that: Drug dealers love the 25acp! Whether it happens sooner or later in the fight, this little round remains the all time record holder for ultimately killing people! As far as I’m concerned, I’m not particularly bothered by carrying a 32, or a 380, or a 9mm – whatever.

To my mind it’s more important how well the pistol FEELS in my hand, and how easy it is to sight, than what particular caliber I’m using. Are you going to stop a Rottweiler or crazed drug addict with a 32 or a 380? Probably not! You may not stop them with a 9mm or a 45acp - either. Get ‘um in close, shoot straight, and be prepared for a little hand-to-hand. Personally I like moving diagonally or, even, backing up as I shoot; (I shuffle.) and I, always, always, love cover! Under certain circumstances, (You’ll know, ‘When’.) if you hit an opponent and stun him, do exactly the same thing you’d do in a fistfight: (Hell, while I hate the guy, do what Michael Platt did!) Close with your opponent and take your final shots real close in.

Finally, in my opinion, gun fighting is more about FOCUS, and the individual gunman’s personal ability to focus, than it is about caliber – any caliber! There’s too much, ‘socio-political crap’ around today about, ‘shooting-to-stop’. If it’s come down to gun fighting I can’t imagine an experienced gunman who's involved in a real life gunfight, ‘shooting-to-stop’. Out on the street, ‘shooting-to-stop’ means, ‘shooting-to-kill’. Regardless of whatever caliber you’re using, as long as the other guy keeps coming forward, or hangs onto his weapon, my recommendation would be to: FOCUS and, ‘shoot-to-live’ instead. Shoot straight, line up, ‘vertical’ and, ‘shoot vertical’. As the old cops like to say; ‘Freight ‘um down!’

[Brick]

All this gelatin stuff all over again. As if you test your bullets with a 20x20x20 inch block...As if humans are 20x20x20.

Just test it on animals!

If it works well on bear, it'll probably work very well on mutant zombies!

I know. But the perfect bullet isn't out there.

[Danindetroit]

I think jd that you should carry what you feel most comfortable with. I just thought I would post some data that said the .380 can be a decent seld defense round. The FBI and other agencies test there bullets with a medium that can be replicated in any lab all over the world. If you think that the best way is to shoot bears, then start shooting them. I posted for porpose of helping the originator of the thread. I might even put in hollowpoints and fmj bullets alternated in a mag.

[Geoff Timm]

Anything less than a .45-70 out of a rifle has no stopping power!

If it worked for Colonel Custer.... umm... uhhh...

Never mind.

Geoff
Who adapts ancient jokes as needed.

[Majic]

Why do you see so many posts recommending the .380 as too weak?
To many people reading gun mags as if they were the holy scriptures.
To many people looking at statistical analysis when it's known that the data can be made to come out with any solution you want it to.

[Erich]

As others have said, one needs shot placement and adequate penetration. And luck. Expansion is gravy.

I have mentioned the case I presently have in which a 280-lb man with a BAC of .15 was stopped after seven rounds of .380 hardball. Only two of the rounds did serious damage. One of these went through his liver and lung and would have eventually been fatal but did not stop him. The other completely penetrated his torso and upper arm, going through his aorta and putting him down on the way.

The remaining five shots did very little damage.

If you're going to carry a .380, I'd recommend that you carry hot European hardball, since I don't think that you want low-speed/low-mass projectiles slowing down during expansion . . . they might not reach "the good stuff" and they might thereby not work.

I'm often tempted to buy a .380, and I've owned them before . . . but I just can't bring myself to rely on one for protecting myself.

[Double Naught Spy]

The .380 isn't a sissy caliber. If somebody is using such a term, then they probably are clueless. They probably haven't fired a .380 out of one of the little concealment guns either. Shooting a .380 out of a small gun, such as a Colt Pony, the recoil can be pretty darned significant. For comparison, my wife prefers shooting her full-sized 1911 over my Colt Pony.

Majic, a lot of the gun rags and data are in fact factual about the problems associated with smaller calibers. The real error I see being made here by a lot of people is that they the smallest caliber that is good enough and they want it for personal protection. So they are requesting the weakest round that will hopefully work well. That is the wrong end of the scale by which to judge personal protection. That is sort of like trying to buy the smallest fire extinguisher to protect your home against a fire. Sure enough, you might get by with a little kitchen fire extinguisher, might.

The prudent way to look at the situation is to determine the largest caliber you can handle from a platform that is reliable and can be concealed.

[DPris]

The .380 is marginal, period.
In my uniformed years, it wounded more often than it killed.
One case sticks in mind. Ex boyfriend abducted girl at gunpoint, carjacked a vehicle at gunpoint, subsequent police chase ended up rolling the stolen vehicle on a freeway offramp. Boyfriend & girl got out OK, boyfriend stood off surrounding officers from several jurisdictions for some time by using her as a hostage, then shot her in the chest at very close range with his .380 auto once. She ran around the corner of the car, he may have been temporarily diverted from a second shot in astonishment when she didn't go down, but as soon as she was clear enough he was permanently diverted by incoming fire from 9mms & .40s. She survived. He didn't make it to trial.
I was working that day, but not there. We were shown the video at a later briefing. The girl was maybe 110 pounds, about 20 years old. There was absolutely no visible immediate effect on her, she just turned around and ran away.
I have a very nice Walther PPK/S in .380, but I'm fully aware of the old cop joke- if you want to hurt somebody, shoot 'em with a .380, if you want to stop them, use something bigger.
Bullet type & placement are important, but so is caliber (bullet weight, construction, and energy).
If you carry a .380, just be aware that you're at the bottom end in effective defensive calibers.
I know, somebody killed a grizzly with a .22 once. But that was a very lucky shot through the eye into the brain, and it doesn't hardly make the .22 a good grizzly gun.
Denis

[BigG]

I will just say that it makes a big difference whether your target is aware or unaware. A 22 LR in the back of the neck or a 7.62 russian something or other in the same place will do more than a big magnum if the person is scared and running and you just wing him. The 380 is a marginal piece but better than nothing. There are better choices now in the same size pkg. JMHO.

[horge]

How many here have even presented their .40's, .45's and 9's in real life
home or street defense? When it goes down bad on your virgin butt,
maybe it helps to have a piece that is

1. dead-nuts reliable.
2. light enough to be an instant extension of your transitioning arm
3. a natural pointer, since that sighted fire stuff goes out the window
4. an accurate rapidfire piece, its muzzle coming down quick for follow-ups

Placement, placement, placement. Number of holes too.
You don't have all day to shoot, and the BG ain't posing for a picture.

If you can rely on a larger caliber in a CONCEALABLE piece to do that,
then good for you.

I might suspect that nearly all of the people commenting negatively on the .380
have ZERO actual experience defending themselves from BG's on the street
or in their home with ANY firearm. Well? Not everyone is a cop or security
officer whose job it is to look for creeps (and thank God for cops) and have
their firearms in easy access open carry. --others tend to live their different
lives focused on other things, meaning the BG's get the jump on them, their
defense weapons tucked away into reduced accessibility.

We all have a$$es, and like opinions, they are ony worth what we are willing
to defend them with.
Would I choose to defend mine with a .380 pistol? No. No. NO.
I choose to defend mine with my training.


My .380 is just a tool.
A reliable, accurate, high-ROF, extremely pointable tool.
Ditto the Remington Golden Sabers in it.
There are, or ought to be, many other tools in the toolbox,
besides any weapons.

Mabuhay.

[Brick]

Good point horge.

Totally agreed.

Ever hear of the American-180 submachine gun with 280 round drum? It's a .22. If you have the training to get consistent stopping shots, then excellent. Now be prepared to put it to use.

Five accurate head shots with a .22 is just as equal to two .600 Nitro Express SA Revolver shots to the lungs.

[JohnKSa]

it wounded more often than it killed.

I believe that's probably true of virtually any handgun round.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

The only caveat I have for smaller calibers-the smaller the bullet, the more accurate you have to be with it under stress.