Need some diagnostic help...

keko · January 11, 2005, 10:14 PM

I am shooting low and to the left. This is with a bunch of different pistols in a bunch of different calibers. So, it is me, not the guns.

I can reliably hit a BG in the liver every time...LOL.

I shoot right handed (with both hands), triangle stance, both eyes open.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, Keko

**JohnKSa** · January 11, 2005, 10:25 PM

Take some snap caps to the range and intersperse them in the mags with the other rounds. Watch what happens when one comes up...

Sir William · January 11, 2005, 11:12 PM

I agree. It will surprise you. The other thought is, does the firearm suit/fit you? Some items can be replaced/modified to adjust for your grip. Take a friend and have them watch your positioning/grip.

smokin54 · January 11, 2005, 11:21 PM

Take a look at this ,for a right hand shooter . a left hand shooter just uses it backwards . It may also help to keep the right hand thumb high and be sure to use only the end pad of the trigger finger , If you are back at the knuckle then you are using to much finger

http://www.sportshooter.com/improvin...tion_chart.gif

Blue Heeler · January 12, 2005, 04:40 AM

Are you shooting an autoloader or a revolver? It appears to be a trigger control problem and perhaps some flinch - need more info.

Guy B. Meredith · January 12, 2005, 03:09 PM

For a right handed shooter, shooting at 7:00 usually indicates recoil anticipation.

As mentioned above the best diagnostic tool is to load in some dummy rounds in such a way that you will not know when they are in the chamber. Keeping your eye firmly on the front sight as you should be, see whether you maintain that image when pulling the trigger on the dummy or not. This works best with a revolver and is VERY instructive.

Cazach · January 12, 2005, 06:27 PM

Also make sure that you are only using the tip of your finger on the trigger. You should contact the trigger with the pad of your finger and not the first joint.

Dry fire and snap caps will also help to check for a "Flinch".

rkc · January 12, 2005, 07:09 PM

There is a time honored training diagram that illustrates bullet placement and the problems to correct jerked triggers, etc. We all do it and I do it sometimes. Correct measures are indicated. Do a search for Nine Dog targets, they offer targerts with the proper diagram that makes for an excellent training aid. If you cant find Nine Dog let me know I may have some.

basically draw a target. Dead center, ok, and teh target is cut into sections showing likely problems.

keko · January 12, 2005, 07:45 PM

you all

James K · January 12, 2005, 09:10 PM

FWIW, I have been told that a liver hit is about the most painful and instantly disabling injury that can be inflicted.

Jim

osirus101 · January 12, 2005, 09:30 PM

if you are flinching obviously the best thing for you to do would be to teach yourself not to. If you absolutely cant keep from doing it and your very persistant then adjust the sights to make it hit the middle. (wouldnt suggest it unless all other options fail)

LAK · January 13, 2005, 04:47 AM

What JohnKSa said.

And have someone else load the snapcaps for you. Tell them to make sure that the snapcaps are not one of the first few of rounds, and better if they are an experienced shooter or instructor as they will be better prepared to analyse your muzzle behavior when it goes "click".

What Jim Keenan said.

Hmmm, second thoughts, forget the snap caps and leave things just as they are

Para Bellum · January 15, 2005, 12:26 PM

I just had the same problem eliminated by a law enforcement instructor. He made me:

1. Focus the sight, not the target

3. the trigger hand does not hold the gun. the "weak hand" does.

2. steadly and slowly increase the pressure on the trigger until the gun fires "unexpectedly"

Speed on step 2. comes with practice. I now shoot 4cm (<2") groups at 10m (31ft). Sometimes there is one hole for two shots now....

Stay safe and enjoy the improvement. It gave me a real "high"!

ethernectar · February 7, 2005, 04:29 PM

Thanks, have been looking for that chart, may switch it around for lefties and repost it...

m

Goman · February 8, 2005, 10:23 AM

Should also close weak eye.

keko · February 8, 2005, 05:15 PM

you may be on to something...I am right eye dominant and right handed BUT my right eye isn't perfect...my left eye is perfect. I may be switching my eyes subconciously when I try to aim...left eye distance and right close-up. That sure would screw things up.

Besides, it is a more "manly" excuse than anticipating recoil...LOL.

BTW, I recently posted on the revolver forum that I have discovered that I am far more accurate with a revolver than a semi-auto. I have no idea why? I learned to shoot with a revolver way back when, maybe that is why.

My 20 year old son is kicking my butt at the range on a regular basis.

January 11, 2005, 10:14 PM	#1
keko Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2004 Posts: 211	Need some diagnostic help... I am shooting low and to the left. This is with a bunch of different pistols in a bunch of different calibers. So, it is me, not the guns. I can reliably hit a BG in the liver every time...LOL. I shoot right handed (with both hands), triangle stance, both eyes open. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Keko

January 12, 2005, 06:27 PM	#7
Cazach Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Posts: 58	The finger! Also make sure that you are only using the tip of your finger on the trigger. You should contact the trigger with the pad of your finger and not the first joint. Dry fire and snap caps will also help to check for a "Flinch".

January 12, 2005, 07:09 PM	#8
rkc Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: South Posts: 295	There is a time honored training diagram that illustrates bullet placement and the problems to correct jerked triggers, etc. We all do it and I do it sometimes. Correct measures are indicated. Do a search for Nine Dog targets, they offer targerts with the proper diagram that makes for an excellent training aid. If you cant find Nine Dog let me know I may have some. basically draw a target. Dead center, ok, and teh target is cut into sections showing likely problems. __________________ rkc

January 12, 2005, 07:45 PM	#9
keko Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2004 Posts: 211	Thank you all

January 15, 2005, 12:26 PM	#13
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	easy steady pressure increase I just had the same problem eliminated by a law enforcement instructor. He made me: 1. Focus the sight, not the target 3. the trigger hand does not hold the gun. the "weak hand" does. 2. steadly and slowly increase the pressure on the trigger until the gun fires "unexpectedly" Speed on step 2. comes with practice. I now shoot 4cm (<2") groups at 10m (31ft). Sometimes there is one hole for two shots now.... Stay safe and enjoy the improvement. It gave me a real "high"! __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

January 11, 2005, 10:25 PM	#2
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,013	Take some snap caps to the range and intersperse them in the mags with the other rounds. Watch what happens when one comes up...

January 11, 2005, 11:12 PM	#3
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	I agree. It will surprise you. The other thought is, does the firearm suit/fit you? Some items can be replaced/modified to adjust for your grip. Take a friend and have them watch your positioning/grip.

January 11, 2005, 11:21 PM	#4
smokin54 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Posts: 193	Take a look at this ,for a right hand shooter . a left hand shooter just uses it backwards . It may also help to keep the right hand thumb high and be sure to use only the end pad of the trigger finger , If you are back at the knuckle then you are using to much finger http://www.sportshooter.com/improvin...tion_chart.gif

January 12, 2005, 04:40 AM	#5
Blue Heeler Junior member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Queensland Posts: 1,043	Are you shooting an autoloader or a revolver? It appears to be a trigger control problem and perhaps some flinch - need more info.

January 12, 2005, 03:09 PM	#6
Guy B. Meredith Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 1999 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 1,581	For a right handed shooter, shooting at 7:00 usually indicates recoil anticipation. As mentioned above the best diagnostic tool is to load in some dummy rounds in such a way that you will not know when they are in the chamber. Keeping your eye firmly on the front sight as you should be, see whether you maintain that image when pulling the trigger on the dummy or not. This works best with a revolver and is VERY instructive.

January 12, 2005, 09:10 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, I have been told that a liver hit is about the most painful and instantly disabling injury that can be inflicted. Jim

January 12, 2005, 09:30 PM	#11
osirus101 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: alaska Posts: 183	if you are flinching obviously the best thing for you to do would be to teach yourself not to. If you absolutely cant keep from doing it and your very persistant then adjust the sights to make it hit the middle. (wouldnt suggest it unless all other options fail)

January 13, 2005, 04:47 AM	#12
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	What JohnKSa said. And have someone else load the snapcaps for you. Tell them to make sure that the snapcaps are not one of the first few of rounds, and better if they are an experienced shooter or instructor as they will be better prepared to analyse your muzzle behavior when it goes "click". What Jim Keenan said. Hmmm, second thoughts, forget the snap caps and leave things just as they are

February 7, 2005, 04:29 PM	#14
ethernectar Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2004 Location: Central CA Posts: 218	Thanks, have been looking for that chart, may switch it around for lefties and repost it... m

February 8, 2005, 10:23 AM	#15
Goman Junior Member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: Okc, OK Posts: 8	Should also close weak eye.

February 8, 2005, 05:15 PM	#16
keko Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2004 Posts: 211	Goman... you may be on to something...I am right eye dominant and right handed BUT my right eye isn't perfect...my left eye is perfect. I may be switching my eyes subconciously when I try to aim...left eye distance and right close-up. That sure would screw things up. Besides, it is a more "manly" excuse than anticipating recoil...LOL. BTW, I recently posted on the revolver forum that I have discovered that I am far more accurate with a revolver than a semi-auto. I have no idea why? I learned to shoot with a revolver way back when, maybe that is why. My 20 year old son is kicking my butt at the range on a regular basis.