Differences between 870HD and 870P?

STAGE 2 · January 18, 2005, 01:42 PM

After an unsuccessful trip to the gunshop talking to too many who knew too few, I would like to know what are the differences between the 870 HD and the 870 police model, and where would one go to purchase the latter. Thanks.

Dfariswheel · January 18, 2005, 03:26 PM

Here's the actual differences:

The Express Home Defense Model has:
A plastic trigger group with the lockable safety button.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style magazine retention system. (Can't put a magazine extender on without removing the dimples).
A rougher finish inside and outside with burrs left in place.
A rough blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end.
An 18", cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.

The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group with no lockable safety.
The old style magazine retention system. (Takes magazine extensions).
A much smoother finish inside and out, with no burrs.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.

Basically, the HD is just the "Budget" Express with a short barrel.
The Police is a top-of-the-line Wingmaster with a dull finish and some changes to improve durability for harsh condition police use.

The Express and Police use the same forged and milled steel receiver, and the Express is almost as durable as the Police.
The only complaints about the Express HD is there have been a few cases of broken MIM extractors.

Buying the 870 Police is simply a matter of finding a FFL dealer who will special order one for you.

There is a problem with some dealers who will claim that Remington "doesn't sell police guns to civilians".
Some dealers actually believe this, and others use it as an excuse not to be bothered with the trouble of making special orders.

The problem for the dealer is, not all Remington factory authorized wholesalers are LAW ENFORCEMENT wholesalers.
If your dealer doesn't normally do business with a wholesaler that carries LE guns, he has to go to the trouble of finding and dealing with one who does.

Many dealers just don't want the trouble.

If you look around you can find a dealer who will fix you up.
Here's a look at what Remington offers in Police guns:
http://www.remingtonle.com

The 870 Police is the best available, but expensive.

If you don't need rifle sights, and are willing to do a few minutes work removing the dimples in the Express magazine tube, the Express HD is a great shotgun.

STAGE 2 · January 19, 2005, 12:46 PM

What is the price range for an 870P

Dfariswheel · January 19, 2005, 03:12 PM

Depends entirely on which model, and who you get it from.

I "think" the Police models start around $350.00??? LIST PRICE.

I am NOT sure about this.

random_alias · January 20, 2005, 10:48 PM

I've been calling around and the Remington 870P MAX (which is not the standard police model, BTW) goes for between $735 - $780 around here. Once again, don't let this price throw you, the MAX model has a lot of extra stuff, just thought I'd put the info out there. If you are looking at adding things like ghost ring sights or Surefire lights, you may want to consider the MAX. I think that price is tough to beat for what you get. There's no way I could put an Express and add that stuff for that price. Especially when you consider the metal parts, parkerized finish, and thicker barrel/tougher springs. It just depends on what you want.

liliysdad · January 21, 2005, 11:30 AM

You can get the Express without the dimples, if you order the version with the factory mag extension.

Me, Im a Wingmaster guy...I like the blued guns. The Police is identical to the Wingmaster, save the finish, and availability of options. I would go for the Police/ Wingmaster over the Express anyday, but Id choose an Express over any non-Remington pumpgun.

I carry a circa 1957 Wingmaster Police with the factory 18" tube. marvelous shotgun. Ive added the Flex-tab, Scattergun Tech +2 mag extension, Speedfeed 12.5" LOP stock, and Mossberg Ghost Ring sights. Couldnt ask for a better shotgun.

Nimitz87 · February 1, 2005, 12:15 AM

very nice thread...wish i saw it earlier.

springfieldmaniac · February 26, 2005, 05:21 PM

I just wanted to ressurrect this fairly recent thread.Actually I would like to correct a few pieces of information posted here, so people can make a sound judgment.
The Express Home defense model has no magazine tube dimples as stated.In fact it has a factory magazine extension installed.
The Receiver is in fact the same as the Police models just without the fine metal finishing and parkerized finish.There was another thread in which a poster claimed that Remington was not telling the truth about the receivers being different.When in fact they are identical except for some finishing differences.

Remington has been using MIM parts in increasing amounts since around the 1970's.They pioneered this process and make parts and tools for other companies like "Snap-on"
The Bolt/extractor and trigger group assembly on the Police Models are in fact MIM/aka-powdered metal injection.I just installed a factory Police trigger group on my Express HD model just recently in fact,and it is a MIM part as plain as day.This isn't neccessarily a bad thing as it saves time.money,and is supposed to be just as durable.After all Ruger firearms have been casting their gun parts for a long time.Never heard anyone say a Ruger was cheaply made or not durable.
In any case the bottom line is cost wise,if you like the Police model options better than the express.It will be alot easier and cheaper to spend the extra doe in the beginning and start with the Police model.I did it the hard and expensive way,building from the HD express model,and after you put on the Trak-lok sights upgrade the stocks,the finish,and the other parts,you have one expensive gun.

nin1974 · October 7, 2005, 01:03 AM

so you think the 870 Max is worth $750?
that's how much i can get it for...

mathman · October 29, 2005, 02:34 AM

I don't mean to bring up an old thread, but didn't really see the point in starting a new one...so here goes...

It was stated earlier in this thread that...

Quote:

The 870 Police has:
.
.
.
A one piece barrel.

...what is meant by this? Do you mean that the barrel and the ring that slips over the magazine tube is one piece?

In case people can't tell, I have been overly curious about 870s of late...hope you all don't mind.

K80Geoff · October 29, 2005, 10:09 AM

I am also curious about the "Two piece barrel"?

Does this mean the barrel was formed from two halves like the mossberg barrels? If so Remington must be sourcing out the barrels.

I visited the factory in 1995 and was given a grand tour of the plant in Ilion by a Vice President of Remington. I was able to watch the robotic shotgun barrel fabricating process. It was indeed impressive to watch barrels formed from short tubes of ordinance steel pounded around a mandrel.

I was informed the barrels being made at that time were being produced for Mossberg. Remington does a lot of contract work for other companies.

If the Express is being delivered with a two piece barrel they must be outsourcing the barrels strictly for a lower price. This would be in line with my observations re remington cheapening the express models to compete with Mossberg and Norinco. Mossberg 500 barrels have been made in Mexico and are formed from two pieces, so is Remington now buying parts in Mexico?

PS: I mean no disrespect here, just am curious as to what is going on. Will have to go look at some express models to check them out.

Has anyone seen or even purchased an Express with a two piece barrel?

Where IS my tin foil hat???

radom · October 31, 2005, 01:39 AM

They look like a one peice tube to me. Only differance I can tell is the sandblast type finish.

Dfariswheel · October 31, 2005, 02:14 PM

The Wingmaster and Police models have "one piece" barrels with the support ring brazed on.

The Express "Seems" to have a barrel made from a rear chamber and extension section, with a barrel tube brazed into the rear section.

On later Express guns, I can see what appears to be a joint, just in front of the chamber, on the outside of the barrel.

This is the same system that's used to make some 1911 barrels, where the rear of the barrel with the locking lugs and the link section is brazed onto a barrel tube.

I'm NOT 100% sure about the Express having a two-piece barrel, but I do see what appears to be a joint, and since this type of barrel is much cheaper to make than the Wingmaster and Police one-piece, this would fall in line with the Express's status as a "budget gun".

If you have a newer Express, take a look at the barrel, and see if there is a faint joint line visible, or if I need to get new glasses.

mathman · October 31, 2005, 05:46 PM

Well, I took the plunge and bought an 870P today (sight unseen). It is the 18" bbl with the bead sight, parkerized finish and the Speedfeed stocks (without the built-in shell tube)...I will give an update of my impressions as well as the differences between it and the 870 express HD SG that I have.

Cheers

narrowneck · October 31, 2005, 06:37 PM

I bought an 870HD a few weeks back. The barrel is at the gunsmith at the moment but it looked like one piece (I will have to double check when I get it back).
Compare to my Police and Wingmaster models the finish was not up to the same standard. It did have the plastic looking extractor.
I have replaced the plastic trigger and the bolt with a wingmaster one.
The one thing that was interesting was the action bars from the wingmaster would not fit the locking slide of the express and vice versa.

Dfariswheel · October 31, 2005, 08:10 PM

mathman:

When you get your Police model, you'll need to remove the cosmoline coating and spray on a coat of Rem-Oil or CLP Breakfree.

Remington recommends this to remove the cosmoline and to impregnate the parkerized finish with Teflon.

If you don't remove the cosmoline, the metal can rust.

See the FAQ's on Remington's LE web site for full details:
http://www.remingtonle.com

mathman · November 1, 2005, 01:12 AM

Thanks Dfariswheel...you seem to be an authority on these boards when it comes to the 870...I certainly will take your advice and follow your suggestion. I have some CLP Breakfree in the aresol can...is this OK? I am looking forward to getting the Police gun as it seems to be a much better gun than the Express...I hope that they have not 'cheapened' it lately and I hope that I am not disappointed.

Thank you again.

Dfariswheel · November 1, 2005, 03:52 PM

No, the Police is still the Cadillac of pump guns.
You're going to LIKE it.

I prefer to use CLP Breakfree on my Police.

When I first got it, I disassembled it per the manual and sprayed it dripping wet, inside and out.

I let it soak for 30 minutes to dissolve the cosmoline and stood the trigger group up to drain.

Then I wiped it off with clean cloths, made sure the excess CLP had drained out from behind the shell releases, and put it in service.

Every time is use it, before putting it away I apply a thin coat of more CLP.

This seems to build up a permanent layer of Teflon, and I've had zero problems with any rust.

mathman · November 1, 2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

No, the Police is still the Cadillac of pump guns.
You're going to LIKE it.

Man, I can't wait for the 10 days to be up...

I'll use CLP Breakfree...it is my favorite lube as well...thanks again...I can't wait!

DPris · November 1, 2005, 10:17 PM

D,
Picking up a loaner PMax later this week.
You think I oughta keep it when I'm done? It'd have to be Vanged if I did, and I'm not sure I want to go back to a pistolgrip stock. But, then again, wouldn't hurt to get another one before the plastic barrels come out, eh what?

Denis

mathman · November 1, 2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

But, then again, wouldn't hurt to get another one before the plastic barrels come out, eh what?

yeah...no kidding...if this 870P is all that I think it is, I might buy another one and just store it to show my grandkids what a gun with a metal barrel looked like

Dfariswheel · November 1, 2005, 11:38 PM

"Plastic" barrels are already out.

Remington once briefly sold shotgun barrels that were steel tubes wound with glass fiber thread and the old Armalite AR-17 shotgun had an aluminum barrel.

Super light, but didn't sell.

What's old is new again.

DPris · November 2, 2005, 12:15 AM

So...You think I oughta keep it?
Denis

Wingbone · November 2, 2005, 11:20 AM

I thought I would ask this here instead of starting a new thread. I have an 870 police magnum, 18" bbl, pistol grip, and a "For Law Enforcemtnt Only" folding stock.(its legal, I checked) Is it worth anything in this configuration? I was thinking of changing it to a more standard looking shotgun. Then I think since I have quite a few other "standard looking shotguns", why bother? Anyway, just something else to chat about. Any opinions? Thanks,
Ken

Dfariswheel · November 2, 2005, 03:11 PM

It's worth the extra price of a used Remington factory folding stock.

These show up on Ebay fairly often, and usually bring prices under $75.00???

Since you already have standard guns, I guess you could keep it as a conversation piece, or to demonstrate to new shotgunners with the "accessory fever" WHY folding stocks aren't a good idea.

First, have them shoot a few full-power buckshot loads, and if they still want to shoot it, have them try a real shotgun course to show them how difficult it is to hit "real world" targets with it.

Of course, you could fund something else by selling the stock to someone with Accessory Fever.

January 18, 2005, 01:42 PM	#1
STAGE 2 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2002 Posts: 2,676	Differences between 870HD and 870P? After an unsuccessful trip to the gunshop talking to too many who knew too few, I would like to know what are the differences between the 870 HD and the 870 police model, and where would one go to purchase the latter. Thanks.

October 29, 2005, 10:09 AM	#11
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	I am also curious about the "Two piece barrel"? Does this mean the barrel was formed from two halves like the mossberg barrels? If so Remington must be sourcing out the barrels. I visited the factory in 1995 and was given a grand tour of the plant in Ilion by a Vice President of Remington. I was able to watch the robotic shotgun barrel fabricating process. It was indeed impressive to watch barrels formed from short tubes of ordinance steel pounded around a mandrel. I was informed the barrels being made at that time were being produced for Mossberg. Remington does a lot of contract work for other companies. If the Express is being delivered with a two piece barrel they must be outsourcing the barrels strictly for a lower price. This would be in line with my observations re remington cheapening the express models to compete with Mossberg and Norinco. Mossberg 500 barrels have been made in Mexico and are formed from two pieces, so is Remington now buying parts in Mexico? PS: I mean no disrespect here, just am curious as to what is going on. Will have to go look at some express models to check them out. Has anyone seen or even purchased an Express with a two piece barrel? Where IS my tin foil hat??? __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!

October 31, 2005, 05:46 PM	#14
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	Well, I took the plunge and bought an 870P today (sight unseen). It is the 18" bbl with the bead sight, parkerized finish and the Speedfeed stocks (without the built-in shell tube)...I will give an update of my impressions as well as the differences between it and the 870 express HD SG that I have. Cheers __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

November 1, 2005, 01:12 AM	#17
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	Thanks Dfariswheel...you seem to be an authority on these boards when it comes to the 870...I certainly will take your advice and follow your suggestion. I have some CLP Breakfree in the aresol can...is this OK? I am looking forward to getting the Police gun as it seems to be a much better gun than the Express...I hope that they have not 'cheapened' it lately and I hope that I am not disappointed. Thank you again. __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

January 18, 2005, 03:26 PM	#2
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Here's the actual differences: The Express Home Defense Model has: A plastic trigger group with the lockable safety button. The dimples in the mag tube and the new style magazine retention system. (Can't put a magazine extender on without removing the dimples). A rougher finish inside and outside with burrs left in place. A rough blue job. A less polished bore. A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this) Synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end. An 18", cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight. Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor. The 870 Police has: An aluminum trigger group with no lockable safety. The old style magazine retention system. (Takes magazine extensions). A much smoother finish inside and out, with no burrs. A military-grade parkerized finish. A polished bore. A one piece barrel. Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end. Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others. 18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous. Heavy-duty magazine spring. Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring. Sling swivel mounts. No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled. Basically, the HD is just the "Budget" Express with a short barrel. The Police is a top-of-the-line Wingmaster with a dull finish and some changes to improve durability for harsh condition police use. The Express and Police use the same forged and milled steel receiver, and the Express is almost as durable as the Police. The only complaints about the Express HD is there have been a few cases of broken MIM extractors. Buying the 870 Police is simply a matter of finding a FFL dealer who will special order one for you. There is a problem with some dealers who will claim that Remington "doesn't sell police guns to civilians". Some dealers actually believe this, and others use it as an excuse not to be bothered with the trouble of making special orders. The problem for the dealer is, not all Remington factory authorized wholesalers are LAW ENFORCEMENT wholesalers. If your dealer doesn't normally do business with a wholesaler that carries LE guns, he has to go to the trouble of finding and dealing with one who does. Many dealers just don't want the trouble. If you look around you can find a dealer who will fix you up. Here's a look at what Remington offers in Police guns: http://www.remingtonle.com The 870 Police is the best available, but expensive. If you don't need rifle sights, and are willing to do a few minutes work removing the dimples in the Express magazine tube, the Express HD is a great shotgun.

January 19, 2005, 12:46 PM	#3
STAGE 2 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2002 Posts: 2,676	What is the price range for an 870P

January 19, 2005, 03:12 PM	#4
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Depends entirely on which model, and who you get it from. I "think" the Police models start around $350.00??? LIST PRICE. I am NOT sure about this.

January 20, 2005, 10:48 PM	#5
random_alias Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Posts: 30	I've been calling around and the Remington 870P MAX (which is not the standard police model, BTW) goes for between $735 - $780 around here. Once again, don't let this price throw you, the MAX model has a lot of extra stuff, just thought I'd put the info out there. If you are looking at adding things like ghost ring sights or Surefire lights, you may want to consider the MAX. I think that price is tough to beat for what you get. There's no way I could put an Express and add that stuff for that price. Especially when you consider the metal parts, parkerized finish, and thicker barrel/tougher springs. It just depends on what you want.

January 21, 2005, 11:30 AM	#6
liliysdad Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Posts: 1,145	You can get the Express without the dimples, if you order the version with the factory mag extension. Me, Im a Wingmaster guy...I like the blued guns. The Police is identical to the Wingmaster, save the finish, and availability of options. I would go for the Police/ Wingmaster over the Express anyday, but Id choose an Express over any non-Remington pumpgun. I carry a circa 1957 Wingmaster Police with the factory 18" tube. marvelous shotgun. Ive added the Flex-tab, Scattergun Tech +2 mag extension, Speedfeed 12.5" LOP stock, and Mossberg Ghost Ring sights. Couldnt ask for a better shotgun.

February 26, 2005, 05:21 PM	#8
springfieldmaniac Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Posts: 68	I just wanted to ressurrect this fairly recent thread.Actually I would like to correct a few pieces of information posted here, so people can make a sound judgment. The Express Home defense model has no magazine tube dimples as stated.In fact it has a factory magazine extension installed. The Receiver is in fact the same as the Police models just without the fine metal finishing and parkerized finish.There was another thread in which a poster claimed that Remington was not telling the truth about the receivers being different.When in fact they are identical except for some finishing differences. Remington has been using MIM parts in increasing amounts since around the 1970's.They pioneered this process and make parts and tools for other companies like "Snap-on" The Bolt/extractor and trigger group assembly on the Police Models are in fact MIM/aka-powdered metal injection.I just installed a factory Police trigger group on my Express HD model just recently in fact,and it is a MIM part as plain as day.This isn't neccessarily a bad thing as it saves time.money,and is supposed to be just as durable.After all Ruger firearms have been casting their gun parts for a long time.Never heard anyone say a Ruger was cheaply made or not durable. In any case the bottom line is cost wise,if you like the Police model options better than the express.It will be alot easier and cheaper to spend the extra doe in the beginning and start with the Police model.I did it the hard and expensive way,building from the HD express model,and after you put on the Trak-lok sights upgrade the stocks,the finish,and the other parts,you have one expensive gun.

October 7, 2005, 01:03 AM	#9
nin1974 Member Join Date: September 22, 2005 Posts: 48	so you think the 870 Max is worth $750? that's how much i can get it for...

October 31, 2005, 01:39 AM	#12
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,358	They look like a one peice tube to me. Only differance I can tell is the sandblast type finish.

October 31, 2005, 02:14 PM	#13
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The Wingmaster and Police models have "one piece" barrels with the support ring brazed on. The Express "Seems" to have a barrel made from a rear chamber and extension section, with a barrel tube brazed into the rear section. On later Express guns, I can see what appears to be a joint, just in front of the chamber, on the outside of the barrel. This is the same system that's used to make some 1911 barrels, where the rear of the barrel with the locking lugs and the link section is brazed onto a barrel tube. I'm NOT 100% sure about the Express having a two-piece barrel, but I do see what appears to be a joint, and since this type of barrel is much cheaper to make than the Wingmaster and Police one-piece, this would fall in line with the Express's status as a "budget gun". If you have a newer Express, take a look at the barrel, and see if there is a faint joint line visible, or if I need to get new glasses.

October 31, 2005, 06:37 PM	#15
narrowneck Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2005 Location: AKL, NZ Posts: 14	I bought an 870HD a few weeks back. The barrel is at the gunsmith at the moment but it looked like one piece (I will have to double check when I get it back). Compare to my Police and Wingmaster models the finish was not up to the same standard. It did have the plastic looking extractor. I have replaced the plastic trigger and the bolt with a wingmaster one. The one thing that was interesting was the action bars from the wingmaster would not fit the locking slide of the express and vice versa.

October 31, 2005, 08:10 PM	#16
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	mathman: When you get your Police model, you'll need to remove the cosmoline coating and spray on a coat of Rem-Oil or CLP Breakfree. Remington recommends this to remove the cosmoline and to impregnate the parkerized finish with Teflon. If you don't remove the cosmoline, the metal can rust. See the FAQ's on Remington's LE web site for full details: http://www.remingtonle.com

November 1, 2005, 03:52 PM	#18
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	No, the Police is still the Cadillac of pump guns. You're going to LIKE it. I prefer to use CLP Breakfree on my Police. When I first got it, I disassembled it per the manual and sprayed it dripping wet, inside and out. I let it soak for 30 minutes to dissolve the cosmoline and stood the trigger group up to drain. Then I wiped it off with clean cloths, made sure the excess CLP had drained out from behind the shell releases, and put it in service. Every time is use it, before putting it away I apply a thin coat of more CLP. This seems to build up a permanent layer of Teflon, and I've had zero problems with any rust.

November 1, 2005, 10:17 PM	#20
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	D, Picking up a loaner PMax later this week. You think I oughta keep it when I'm done? It'd have to be Vanged if I did, and I'm not sure I want to go back to a pistolgrip stock. But, then again, wouldn't hurt to get another one before the plastic barrels come out, eh what? Denis

November 1, 2005, 11:38 PM	#22
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	"Plastic" barrels are already out. Remington once briefly sold shotgun barrels that were steel tubes wound with glass fiber thread and the old Armalite AR-17 shotgun had an aluminum barrel. Super light, but didn't sell. What's old is new again.

November 2, 2005, 12:15 AM	#23
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	So...You think I oughta keep it? Denis

November 2, 2005, 11:20 AM	#24
Wingbone Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2005 Posts: 136	I thought I would ask this here instead of starting a new thread. I have an 870 police magnum, 18" bbl, pistol grip, and a "For Law Enforcemtnt Only" folding stock.(its legal, I checked) Is it worth anything in this configuration? I was thinking of changing it to a more standard looking shotgun. Then I think since I have quite a few other "standard looking shotguns", why bother? Anyway, just something else to chat about. Any opinions? Thanks, Ken

November 2, 2005, 03:11 PM	#25
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	It's worth the extra price of a used Remington factory folding stock. These show up on Ebay fairly often, and usually bring prices under $75.00??? Since you already have standard guns, I guess you could keep it as a conversation piece, or to demonstrate to new shotgunners with the "accessory fever" WHY folding stocks aren't a good idea. First, have them shoot a few full-power buckshot loads, and if they still want to shoot it, have them try a real shotgun course to show them how difficult it is to hit "real world" targets with it. Of course, you could fund something else by selling the stock to someone with Accessory Fever.