Miami Shootout 1986 - 9mm lack firepower

[tom650604]

The Miami Shootout 1986 - 2 agents dead and several wounded. Lack of firepower.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

If this incident changes the mind of FBI agents to start carrying .40sw due to the lack of firepower with the .38 special and 9mm. Why are there still people out there carry .38acp or smaller rounds? This is an event that already proved the 9mm and .38 special lack the firepower.

[Handy]

"Proved"?

Read the incident more carefully. Many of those "underpowered" 9mm rounds performed as well as any handgun round can. 10mm is better, but it is still and handgun round.

[BatmanX]

Although new to the thread, I have read many arguments around here already about this.

This one is almost easier.

1. 1986 does not equal 2005. - Technology on ammo is far greater and more powerful than during the time of that shootout. (I am speculating. I have no idea, someone should be able to help out in this area.)

2. My finace' and I are chosing to carry for the purpose of protection, not law enforcement. Therefore we are going to carry what is comfortable. If there is someone between me and my family, I will shoot. If there is a way to fire a round or two and high tail it outta there, I would rather do that. (I would rather run and not fire at all personally)

3. If we are going to be attacked, it is going to be close range, I am sure we will get a few rounds on their person.

Law enforcement caliber is a different decision IMO than personal caliber decision.

So I am not sure why you are posing the question.

Just a fellow Minnesotan waiting for the CCW ban to be reversed so more law abiding citizens are able to arm and protect themselves.

[Mike Irwin]

Lack of firepower?

No.

Lack of realistic tactics by the FBI?

Yes.

The 9mm that hit Platt or Mattix (can never remember which one) performed exactly as it was supposed to -- penetrating and mushrooming. It was a fatal shot, but the only problem was, the guy didn't know he was dead.

Ah, here we go...

"Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death."

As can be expected from FBI, though, they (and just about everyone else in the firearms community) glossed over the fact that their agents walked into a ****storm completely unprepared and instead decided to blame the handguns and cartridges they were using.

Here's an ugly truth.

Had those agents been armed with .40s or .45s, the outcome would likely have been EXACTLY the same.

They took handguns to a rifle fight, for Christ's sake.

[dolanp]

I guess those .357 mags and that 12-ga shotgun were underpowered too. Why would anyone bring this up again anyways, except to be a troll.

[Al Thompson]

I agree with Mike. The damage to the agents was done with a Mini-14 (.223), so - no, the 12 ga and the .357s (or any caliber used) is irrelevant.

It ain't the arrow, it's the indian.

[tom650604]

I mean, this is an actual event that happened, not just all talk. How many agents do we need to fall in that incident before we'll admit that what they used was inferior. We don't know when we are going to get into a gun fight so better prepare ourselves with a better cal. or be sorry.

All I'm saying is the feds are the pros and they go through extensive experiments not just talk or "I think this or that". If they are changing there cal then in reality, most cases you'll be better off with a .40sw cal than a 9mm or less.

I own a 9mm, 40sw and a .45acp. After shooting 200 rounds on the 40sw and going back to shoot the 9mm, there is a big difference in recoil. I can feel the lack of power in the 9mm. I mean, I also would preferred the 40sw in gun fight situations.

[Erich]

Tom, "firepower" refers to the relative ability to put a number of rounds on target. A 1911 .45 doesn't have the firepower of a 10/22 with a 30-round mag, get it?

Perhaps you ought to at least familiarize yourself with the terminology before you start making sweeping statements. I know that as soon as I personally saw you misused this fairly rudimentary term, I dismissed your opinion as uninformed.

The feebies fired quite a few rounds, Tom . . . firepower was not the problem.

Keep reading Shawn Dodson's site, and learn.

[Mike Irwin]

"How many agents do we need to fall in that incident before we'll admit that what they used was inferior."

You're right. As I said, they took inferior PLANNING and inferior TACTICS to a rifle fight.

What PROOF do you have, absolute verifiable PROOF, that the results of this encounter would have been any different had the agents been armed with .40s, 10mms, or .45s?

Supposition on your part, and the FBI's and firearms community's lack of focus on the true problems with the Miami incident do not constitute PROOF.

In essence, what you're really trying to say is that carrying a bigger handgun will always make up for poor planning and poor tactics.

That's just stupid.

"All I'm saying is the feds are the pros..."

Yes, the agents certainly proved themselves to be the pros, alright. Hell, one of the agents had his handgun lying on the seat beside him and LOST it in the car crash. He never fired a single round because he couldn't find it.

But, of course, that's not the agent's fault, after all, he was a pro. That's a FIREPOWER fault, given that his lost handgun was a wimpy 9mm, right?

[Duxman]

I am going to have to agree with Mr. Irwin's statements here.

First of all going up against 2 armed BG's who have assualt type weapons vs handguns (although one of the FBI agents had a shotgun), is definately a losing scenario.

Regardless of the handgun caliber. I think this will be true (see the latest incident in TX, where a CCW holder with a .45 went up against an AK type weapon) in 80% of the cases.

Handguns are not designed to go toe to toe vs Rifles and shotguns. Regardless of caliber. Unless you get really lucky.....which is probably few and far between.

[Mike Irwin]

"I own a 9mm, 40sw and a .45acp. After shooting 200 rounds on the 40sw and going back to shoot the 9mm, there is a big difference in recoil."

Ah, lord.

Here we go again.

You're more than welcome to try shooting my old 20 gauge some day. It has such a ferocious kick that I'm sure you'll think that it's the most powerful firearm on the face of the earth. You can FEEL the POWER!

[tom650604]

Erich,

Should we go with "knock down power" or "didn't do the job" or maybe "wasn't powerful enough"

Whatever that will help others readers who still wonders understand what the questions was stating.


Al,

It ain't the arrow, it's the indian.

LOL, that was the funniest qoute I've heard all month.

[Dakota Law Dog]

Being a "pro" doesn't necessarily make you a superman. I have worked with all kinds of "pros" who don't know their head from a hole in the ground when it comes to guns or tactics. And these are "pros" who have been on the job for many years.

Caliber is moot when the BG doesn't know he's dead or supposed to be.

[Al Thompson]

Wasn't meant to be funny. That's exactly what most of the folks here are trying to tell you. Out of the 50 plus rounds fired, only one hit (the 9mm).

Explain again about the "lack" of firepower?

Try doing some reading.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

[mtnbkr]

Caliber is moot when the BG doesn't know he's dead or supposed to be

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

The only surefire way is to shutdown the CNS. A perfect COM hit isn't 100% regardless of caliber. Mindset is the key (if you're the one shot). I've seen animals, who don't know they're supposed to drop after being shot, run off with textbook perfect hits.

BTW, weren't these guys wearing body armor?

Chris

[tom650604]

If the BG was hit with a bigger cal you think he would have fall sooner?

[P-990]

Mike Irwin and the others write words of great wisdom, pay heed to them.

I don't believe that Matix and Platt had armor, but I could be mistaken.

Take a look at the North Hollywood shootout. The robbers had body armor and full-autos. I believe the PD men and women scored hits on the attackers with their handguns, but they weren't able to immediate stop the hostilities. In this situation, the 9mm is a better choice than a .45 or .40 because of its greater penetration power. Moot point though, as only having a handgun in this scenario leaves you on the losing end. Fortunately the PD was able to hold out until SWAT and other officers arrived with highpowered rifles, which ended the fight.

The truth of the matter is, NO handgun is a truly powerful weapon. You want/need power, get a rifle. You want to drop somebody on the spot? Hit the CNS with your rounds or clobber him over the skull with a heavy, hard object. Actually, score the CNS hit, because not everybody will drop to a severe blow to the head. (Don't ask how I know the severe blow to the head part.)

[Mike Irwin]

"If the BG was hit with a bigger cal you think he would have fall sooner?"

That seems to be your supposition, but we're still waiting for your proof that this incident would have been resolved with a heavier caliber.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that either a 9mm or a .38 caliber bullet knocked Matix out of the fight early on.

"Matix’s head and upper torso were still rotated to the left when McNeill’s bullet hit him, producing head wound F. The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain) and Dr. Anderson believes it most probably knocked Matix instantly unconscious."


Matix got off a single shot in the entire encounter, which apparently had little effect. Obviously, the 9mm or .38 that hit him was more than enough firepower, neh?

[mtnbkr]

Take a look at the North Hollywood shootout

That's the one I was thinking about when I made the bodyarmor comment.

If the BG was hit with a bigger cal you think he would have fall sooner?

Maybe. If the shot placement was the same as the actual 9mm shot, then a more rapid blood loss might accelerate what the 9mm did. That's assuming the larger bullet performed as well as the 9mm. A 9mm that expands to .6" does more damage than the 45acp that doesn't expand at all. You're still ignoring the fact that these guys were determined. A shot that doesn't destroy the CNS isn't going to stop them quickly enough to avoid casualties.

It's all about mindset. These guys were not intimidated by pain or the sight of their own blood. I doubt a little more of each would've mattered.

Chris

[Mike Irwin]

"Maybe. If the shot placement was the same as the actual 9mm shot, then a more rapid blood loss might accelerate what the 9mm did."

Extremely doubtful in this situation. The gunfight lasted for approximately 4 minutes. It's likely that Platt received this wound roughly 10 to 15 seconds into the fight, if I'm reading the progression of events properly.

The given the type of wound that Platt sustained, it would have taken considerably longer than 3 minutes and 45 seconds for him to bleed out. Upwards 7 to 10 minutes is more likely. A larger caliber slug would probably have accelerated that slightly, but certainly nothing inside the time frame in which Platt did all of the damage to the FBI agents.

End result with a larger caliber handgun?

The same.

[tulsamal]

The FBI never said "the 9mm lacked firepower." At best you are using the wrong term. The FBI DID decide that they wanted more _penetration_ after this event. And that led to the 10mm. Which led to the .40 S&W. Which a lot of people load with lighter bullets and then don't get the penetration the FBI _thought_ they needed.

I agree with some earlier people. The FBI issued requirements for deeper and more consistent penetration after Miami. Several new "premium" rounds were introduced to do what the FBI wanted. XTP, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc. These bullets are MUCH better than what we had twenty years ago. Now it is true, it might NOT have made a difference in the Miami shootout. But I tend to carry that type of ammunition today for my CCW. The bullets are just too good. I heard some gun scribe theorize that today's bullets essentially "moved up" a caliber by "one spot" compared to twenty years ago. So a premium 9mm today is as good as 10mm or .40 S&W back in 86. I don't look down my nose at today's 9mm at all. If the gun I wanted to carry was a 9mm, that would be fine with me. I would just make sure I had some XTP's or Pro Loads with Gold Dots and move out. (FMJ in a miliary context is a whole 'nuther animal.)

Gregg

[xXStarScreamXx]

What PROOF do you have, absolute verifiable PROOF, that the results of this encounter would have been any different had the agents been armed with .40s, 10mms, or .45s?

the fact that the 1911 is a .45. They are able to supercede physics as we know it and deliver 100% accuarate COM shots through body armor around cars, or through an Abrahms tank.

[mtnbkr]

That's why I used the word "might".

Anyway, a larger bullet wouldn't be "Thor's Hammer". Better shooting and steadier nerves are the deciding factor.

Chris

[BatmanX]

I don't think anyone has gotten to the answer of the original question that I tried to answer.

So I will make it a little more obvious.
Do you think while you are at the mall, coffee shop, grocery store, etc, that you will need to take down multiple people with full body armour? If you do, you aren't going to be carrying enough ammo regardless. Your ccw with 1 maybe up to 3 clips on your person isn't going to do squat.

So why pose the question of why not carry .45 etc, if it doesn't fit to the article originally listed? I am having a hard time justifying carrying a 40 or 45 when it just isn't needed for my purposes.

Some how it went off on a crazy tangent. Maybe I just am reading the question wrong?

/edit: And how does this ONE incident (if you add North Hollywood you have 2) PROVE anything? Police respond to these types of calls a lot differntly now. Almost every major city and metro has SWAT. Here is Minneapolis, any call about a gun will bring on multiple squads and SWAT. Even an old guy holed up in his own house.

[Hkmp5sd]

tom650604,

You ever go bow hunting? Ever seen a deer hit through the chest with one of these and still live long enough to run a few hundred yards?


The deciding factor in Miami was the FBI agents thought they would flash their badges and the two BGs would give up. There is a long list of mistakes they made and that is what cost them. One agent went through the entire fight without a gun. One agent went through the fight blind as a bat because he lost his glasses in the initial crash. Only one agent started the fight with a vest and it was only pistol rated, yet they knew Platt and Matix used long guns. And on, and on, and on....