I know what women want, but what do handgunners want?

[jjericho]

I've been at this handgun thing for about a year, gobbling up every piece of info I can and asking lots of stupid questions like, "Why doesn't every handgun have an "off" switch?"

(Thank you. You guys have been great at filling in the gaps. I now know what my index finger is for.)

But it seems to me that unless you are the Jack Russell Terrier of web surfing, there is still a gaping hole for handgunners that is not filled by the NRA or the glossy gun mags (some of which seem to have an incestuous relationship with the gun manufacturers.)

So if you were going to dream up the perfect newsletter for handgunners, what would you want to read about while waiting for your jockey shorts to dry at the local laundry mat?

My buddy, who owns a local gun shop, gave me a couple of suggestions. "Handguns Used In Pershing's Punitive Raid to Catch Pancho Villa." Another was, "Exactly How Well Trained Are the Police With Their Handguns?

I know what women want. I know what my dog wants. But what do handgunners want?

Hmmm. Come to think of it. I still wouldn't mind knowing why every handgun doesn't have an "off" switch?

[Double Naught Spy]

Welcome.

I hate to start off this way, but I know you are lying. Nobody knows what women want.

If you have identified a gaping hole not filled by the NRA, then what is it? You are claiming knowledge of such a beast, but then ask us what we want to read about while washing our jockey shorts. You claim there is a gap, but you don't identify it.

So you are wanting to do a newsletter for the lazy handgunners? Is that right? It is to be a newsletter to provide information that handgunners would be able to find if they took the time to do real searches of their own?

As for your other questions, I go commando so I don't get to read while washing my shorts. Guns don't have OFF switches because they don't have ON per se. Come on, man, that is just a no-brainer! The one ON-like switch they do have is the trigger. Guns remain in the OFF condition until which time the trigger turns them ON and then they run for a very brief amount of time and automatically turn OFF again.

[smokin54]

Is this a anti thats fishing ? I hope I am wrong .

[jjericho]

Woops. Maybe I better explain before I get into deeper hot water.

First, I own three handguns. A Taurus snubby. A Beretta Vertec with Laser Grips. And a Walther P99 compact. I've also got three kids -- 3, 14, and 19 (one heading to Navy). My journey to handguns started when some friends were brutally murdered about ten minutes from where I live -- on a similar, quiet dirt road. Once I decided to arm myself to protect the fam, I also made the decision to make sure I did so safely. No point in accidentally blasting your kids in an attempt to keep them from harm. That led to the Big Learning Curve.

The gun guys around here got me started, and this forum filled in a lot of the blanks. But everyone who has been at this for some time that I spoke with universally had some dissatisfaction with the major glossy gun periodicals. They said they stopped reading them because they all seemed to be parrots for the gun industry. Okay, I thought. Then where do you get your information? Maybe I was talking to the wrong guys, but it wasn't online forums. It seemed like they were waiting for something else to fall out of the sky. There are a lot of handguns in America, but not everyone is online. So where are they getting their info? That led me to think perhaps there is a gap.

And perhaps my initial question was confusing. Or has two parts. One is why aren't ALL guns designed to be shut off? (I realize this is complex with shades of Clinton's Smart Guns, but it's still ligit to ask.) The other is where does the handgunner go for easily accessible information to help you make smart choices that you can trust?

Hope that clarifies ...

[BillCA]

Amusing. Women don't even know what women want.
But if the original poster will tell us what women want, then I think we could tell the poster what WE want.

The poster comments about an "Off switch" for guns, then hints about their index finger but doesn't follow through. Double-Naught-Spy hits it pretty good, but doesn't remind the poster that the primary "on switch" for firearms is the gray-matter between their ears.

The problem with a "perfect" newsletter is that the diversity of interest for gun owners is probably so broad that you couldn't make it perfect without publishing a fairly thick magazine.

[Shorts]

Guns don't need an off switch other than it's user because they aren't powered by anything other than a user.

[jonathon]

The off switch.. is called your index finger Off is fully extended and resting on somewhere that isn't on the trigger.. on is with the finger on the trigger


//EDIT

And women.. just realize one simple fact of life.. a guy won't know what a woman wants.. 'cause we are way to simple :P

[Edward429451]

The other is where does the handgunner go for easily accessible information to help you make smart choices that you can trust?

I can answer this. There's only so much anyone can learn by reading and talking, so the answer to this is "The Range".

The range will fill in the gaps for you, and inspire better questions.

[marshall2]

This is an odd thread!
But I know what women want. Every woman wants a manly man. Every man wants a womanly woman.
Men, let's be men, physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, every way. Our society doesn't train boys to act like real men, but it can be learned.

[Mal H]

I was just about to say pretty much what Edward said, in slightly different words.

jjericho, I think the 'gap' you are looking for is real life experience. As Edward said, you find it at the range, you find it working with guns, working on guns, reloading for guns, talking to others more knowledgeable than you about guns, reading books (not magazines) about guns and their various uses, etc., etc.

What we have here at TFL is a fairly large group of folks who really know the subject of guns. It's hard to say with any certainty, but I would make an educated guess that the cumulative real-life hands-on experience with guns of all types (handguns/rifles/shotguns/cannons/machine guns, etc.) would total well over 100,000 years! There's your gap.

About that "off switch". There is no off switch on most guns because it isn't necessary. Ignoring firearms such as miniguns and the like, not only is there nothing to turn off, it would be about as useless as an off switch on a knife or a sword. Any switch can be turned "on" very easily - it would solve nothing. If you're talking about a lock, that's a different matter and there are locks on many firearms as I'm sure you know. Any firearm can be locked whether the lock is integral or not.


And a note for everyone - Please leave the "what do women want" discussion out of your posts from now on.

[jjericho]

Thanks Mal and the rest of you for your patience as I struggle to articulate my thoughts. Indeed, I appreciate that I'm talking to 100,000 years of experience, but ... I still humbly ask the question, "Why hasn't someone figured out a way to render handguns utterly useless when necessary?"

Call it an off switch, a safety, finger or voice recognition, a built-in Master combination lock like on your locker in high school ... seems to me there are times (like now when I've got kids crawling all over my house) that I want my Walther to go into sleep mode. And, yes, power back up again when I need it.

Get a gun safe, you say. Got three of them, I retort.
Use them, you say. I do, I reply.
But ...

When you're carrying a concealed firearm and you've got a three-year-old climbing all over you, how do you keep yourself and your family safe?
For instance, should you have a round in the chamber? (May as well carry around a hammer, if you don't, many here will say.) Should I only use my Beretta (which has a safety) and not my Walther (which just has a decocker)?

How am I supposed to know what to do? Who will tell me? Where do I go for this information? I live in a rural state that is the envy of handgunners everywhere. No permits are required. No licenses. No tests, exams, or physicals. Nada.

First day out with my new Beretta, I hiked in the snow about half a mile up to the outdoor range. No one was there. Practiced shooting at an old paper target that was full of holes. I had no idea if I hit anything, and thought this was a waste of time. Then I tried shooting at the metal stand with the swinging arms. Boink! Hit the first one. Boink! Hit the second. Boink! Hit the third. I was hooked.

And very stupid. No business being out there alone and clueless.

Which is why I'm here. Asking how to turn this Walther off when you want it off (very light trigger once there's a round in the chamber) AND where do you go for information if you don't know it all? Where do you guys go for your info?

(Mal, why read gun books and not magazines?)

[Mal H]

"Mal, why read gun books and not magazines?"
Several reasons and I'm talking about all books and magazines - the author ususally goes into more depth and detail on a particular topic than do the authors writing the short general articles for the masses; the author of a book has spent the time and energy and has done the research necessary to write a book on his subject, so generally you will find more provable facts and good information in them than you will in a fluff article written for a magazine; and lastly because it is rare to find a book with ads in it. The observation you yourself stated above when discussing magazines is a valid point:

some of which seem to have an incestuous relationship with the gun manufacturers.

Now having said all that, there are a few magazines I subscribe to that are a cut above the norm. One of them, a gun magazine, sort-of sponsors this website - SWAT Magazine. The authors, for the most part, are very knowledgable and have BTDT. They have the credentials to write what they do. The other magazines aren't gun magazines (Nature, Sci. Am., etc.) so no need to discuss them. In short there is only one firearms and related topics magazine that I have seen that didn't have an overt agenda.

*******************************************************

As to the question, "Why hasn't someone figured out a way to render handguns utterly useless when necessary?"

They have, don't keep any ammunition in them. A gun is useless for its intented purpose without ammo. That, of course, means you should have the ammo readily available on your person if you carry a pistol for protection. And it means you're going to waste many valuable seconds loading it (if you have those seconds available to you when needed), but it won't go off without your wanting it to - that's for sure. I would never advise that course of action, but it is the only method I can think of to satisfy your desired condition for a gun.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

But what do handgunners want? - Women

The problem with lots of gun rags is that they are driven by advertising. I once talked to Jan Libourel - a fellow Ph.D and he said that he would like to do in depth articles about shooting and guns but the market was calling for self-defense ninja articles (my words but his gist).

I would like to see a techy type journal about guns - a scholarly one but the economics aren't there.

A referred journal of gun studies would be nice but I don't see it happening. Kopel tried it but it hasn't gone anywhere. The price would be about $100 a year or even more, that's what I pay for a professional journal. Libaries get charged $1000 a year for the same professional journal.

[Ozzieman]

As far as an OFF switch, I am sure if the lawyers working for gun companies got there way there would be an off switch, but being an engineer one thing I know about desighns.
I know you have heard it before but its the KISS principal
Keep It Simple Stupid!
More moving parts, more chance of breaking.
Me the only OFF switch a gun needs is the one behind my eyes.



[Post edited. Please see the bottom of post #10 - Mal H]

[roscoe]

Virtually all the information you seek about guns is here and at thehighroad.org.

[threefivesevenmag]

I liked the a previous post that mentioned a scholarly journal. That would be pretty interesting. I would buy it up, but as stated before, most people want "ninja-action" defense articles and what not.

If a group of people got together and each wrote a relevant journal article of their own interest involving firearms, an underground journal could actually happen.

But I suppose a lot of people have personal websites and can post reviews, ideas, and theories at much less a cost.

Just treat a gun magazine as something fun to read, rather than always being the "be all know all." As stated in other posts, talking with people, practicing, and maintaining the idea that we must all keep searching for information rather than have it just handed to us will make learning more valuable and productive.

Also, an off switch is a bad idea. I think people should carry what they feel comfortable with, what fits their hands best, and what the situation calls for. I don't have kids, but when I do, they will learn how to responsibly treat all firearms and respect what they can do. Don't be afraid of it going off. If it is on your person, the only way it is going off is if you holstered wrong (bad idea) or have a terrible holster (another bad idea). Invest in good leather / kydex and carry the gun to the situation. Keep your finger away from the trigger until you surely have to fire. Keep what you don't need at a moments notice in the safe.

Just be concious and use your mind and judgement. Trust yourself and your skills with the gun and if not, get training. If you feel treat it right, it won't do anything it's not supposed to do (trigger wise).

Just my .02

[S.E.R.T.SGT]

I would second several very important tidbits given in this thread. First, there is absolutely ZERO substitute for practice. Practice, practice, and then practice some more. (Did I say practice.) Secondly, I would say that Mal is correct on the books. They are able to go into greater depth and breadth than a 2-3 page article can in a magazine. (Some videos out there are pretty good as well, but you gotta be careful on some of these.) I personally subscribe to a couple of magazines, but quite honestly the one that I get the most real life/pertinent information from is S.W.A.T. magazine. Has a lot of very valuable informtion. Welcome to the world of hanguns and TFL, happy shooting...

[jjericho]

We've gone the long way around the barn, but it does get back to my original (albeit confusing) question. Is there a gaping hole of information for handgunners?

Mal, you've identified one gun periodical you respect -- S.W.A.T. Rosco puts in a vote for thehighroad.org. And obviously there is TFL. But ... is that it? (Oh, yeah. There's books.)

I'm not a marketing genius, but it seems to me there is room for Something Else that doesn't accept advertising that tells it like it is by people who know what they're talking about and ... doesn't have a Ninja Turtle on the cover.

If Such a Something (now I sound like Dr. Zeus) existed, what do handgunners want ... to see in it?

See. It wasn't such a crazy question after all.

[payne]

you say you want to feel safe with your kids crawling over you? Like mal said, carry ammo on you in different area. I might think to carry the Beretta safety on and not one in the pipe. That will give you the safety of it not being loaded (at that time), but faster than say keeping the mag in a mag pouch elsewhere. the whole thing about the "smart gun" is that if it had some kinda electronical start up or voice recognition it would probably not work when you really need it to because of some malfunction. Murphy's Law and all that ya know!

[Garand Illusion]

I also have a kid and I am a freak about gun safety. That doesn't mean I don't have my weapons accessible and ready, it just means I set up safety protocols and then follow them -- just like we do on a busy range.

When I first started shooting it seemed silly ot have rules like "don't touch the gun until told it's OK" and etc., but then with experience I realized just how important it was to have strict protocols when you have a diverse group of strangers handling deadly weapons in a limited space.

The real question her is how to be safest.

Around the house we have a zero tolerance policy for unsecured fire arms. They are either locked up in a safe or in my direct possession.

To make them accessible I have 2 small safes in different places in the house with quickly openable electronic locks -- cost less than $100 apiece.

In general I CCW a revolver with the first chamber empty (not the one under the hammer, the first one in line) or an automatic with an external safety (a properly locked and cocked 1911 is fine, but I prefer a weapon with a hammer block) but one in the chamber. Sounds silly to some, and flame if you want, but I can "double tap" the revolver VERY quickly to get a round off, but with the auto successfully racking the weapon takes two hands and you sure would feel silly if you got a misfeed on the rack -- if I were even freakier, I would consider carrying my auto with the pipe empty, but in that case I'd rather go with the revolver and first chamber empty).

[Waitone]

I'll say it. First, welcome to TFL. We pride ourselves on expert and civil discussion that will get pointed. That said, you are in perhaps the best place to ask questions. No question is inapproriate. You might run a search first and if you can't find what you want, ask away.

Secondly, since you are a noobie with questions I would suggest putting your self in the hands of a certified NRA instructor. You start shooting only once. Do it right and you come up to speed much faster than those of us (me, me) who had to unlearn bad habits. Courses are not expensive and you'll develop friends for the future.

You are evidently concerned about safety of loved ones. Correct priority. You also perceive the demands of safety seem to conflict with the demands of self protection. You are using your noodle. That conflict is dealt with in a variety of NRA courses. Any number of THR regulars are been through that drill.

In short, talk to an NRA instructor and put your feet up around the THR crackerbarrel.

[shield20]

If you want an 'all in one' place - try the current Gun Digest Book of Handgunning. I was so bored with the gun mags while traveling I bought that - and it is filled with ALOT of good stuff (and just about the only gun book Barnes & Noble carries in stock.) Also read In The Gravest Extreme by Ayoob for more general carry vs. use info. On Combat is supposed to be good on dealing with using deadly force, but mine got delivered to the wrong place and I won't get it till next week. I used to like Combat Handguns magazine for tactics and such - bi-monthly though and hard to find sometimes. For 'how to shoot' try some tactical combat books - ones by Gabriel Suarez seem Ok - look on amazon for other recommended titles. I think the thing is to read as much as possible (& take courses if possible), and pick out and practice what works for you. Seems most of the better 'experts' agree on most of the basics.

[Gonzo_308]

jjerico, I kinda breezed through everything after your question about making a gun inop when not needed.

When is that exactly? If I could only know when I'd need a gun I'd sacrifice everything you know about what women want. really I would.

Here's the truth. anything can be broken. A stick has only one part but can be broken, the next most complicated weapon is a sword and they can be broken. A yew Bow can be broken and we've only moved up to two parts!

Guns are complicated enough as it is. There's nothing worse than having the most important piece of equipment you own malfunction because it couldn't read your voice, fingerprint, because your lip was split or your hands were covered with blood, mud, whatever, a combination lock?

There's a video out there with an Ohio State Trooper with years of experience that couldn't get a gun out of a holster under stress. He’s not the first and won't be the last. You want to complicate things even more?

The off switch is in you and what you teach your kids.

Take away the mystery and they won't be so curious.

Ask yourself, why don't more kids steal mom and dads car? The keys are usually right there in the open? There’s no mystery there. Cars are just an ordinary fact of life. Guns should be too. Train them, teach them and then let them know that whenever they want, as long as you're there they can help clean them, practice their trigger pull with a snap cap and after following the basic safety rules.

Beat the safety rules into their heads so even if they have a friend talk them into sneaking behind your back they know what to do before they do anything else.

There's you’re safety/off switch/voice recognition...

[20cows]

Most guns already have an "off" switch. It's called a "safety". Keep in mind that guns are not "power tools" that run on electric current and therefor don't "run" when they're turned "on".

What's the difference between the on/off switch on the pair of clippers I used yesterday to cut my son's hair and the safety switch on my shotgun. In what they do relative the tools they're attached to, nothing. The difference is in the potential consequences of one on the shotgun not working properly versus the consequences of a pair of clippers coming on when the switch is bumped accidentally.

You're not asking why guns don't have "off" switches, you're asking why guns can't just disapear or not be guns until we need them.

In my shop there are many tools that, if not used properly, could cause great harm. Their use requires knowledge, respect and careful dilegence. They all have switches, but you still have to be careful around them, they have teeth.

A gun is no different.

[FirstFreedom]

Tables, charts, & graphs! Statistics. Just the facts...

Comparing any and all modern handguns. Huge, extensive, fact-filled, side-by-side statistical comparisons & databases of every conceivable feature under the sun a handgun could possibly have, primarily objective criteria, but also some subjective regarding verified test results about reliability, etc. But the objective categories would include for starters:

-Length
-Height with mag in
-Width measure in the grip
-Width measured at the slide
-Weight with loaded mag in
-Weight with unloaded mag in
-Caliber
-Mag capacity
-Action type (locked breech, etc., and linkless, linked, what?)
-Other construction characteristics, like frame rails inside or outside slide, etc.
-Slide & barrel material / manuf. process details
-Frame material / manuf. process details
-Cylinder material / manuf. process details
-Parts material / manuf. process details
-Magazine material & contruction details
-Trigger / Carry modes type or types available on the gun (DAO, DA/SA, SAO, pre-sprung DAO)
-Trigger weight of each type
-Trigger length of pull on each type
-Trigger length to reach, measured from backstrap, for each type
-Firing pin type - striker or external hammer
-Decocker - yes or no
-Decocker type (simple drop with pin blocker, thumb-pressure-opposed letdown like Sig & CZ, or what?)
-Manual safety - yes or no
-Internal or passive safety(s) - yes or no, how many, and what specific types
-Mag disconnect safety - yes or no
-Manual safety location - slide or frame
-Manual safety direction - regular or back-assward
-Manual safety 'weight' - pressure need to engage & disengage.
-Manual safety - positive click or just 'mushy'
-Slide release length to reach, as measured from a standard point, say the most-forward point on the backstrap, to simulate thumb length needed to operate
-Mag release distance of movement before disengagement
-Mag release pressure need to move, in pounds
-Decocker length to reach, measured the same way
-Controls ambi or not
-Grip angle, measured in degrees.
-Grip thickness, back to front, thickness left to right, and thus total girth as well
-Chamber loaded indicator, yes or no
-Striker cocked indicator (or exposed hammer), yes or no
-Other interesting features like changeable backstraps, variable user-selected triggers (Walther & Daewoo), etc.
-Stock front sight, specific type and construction
-Stock rear sight, specific type, adjustability, & construction
-Stock Recoil spring - type, materials, etc.
-Recoil spring weight, stock
-Detailed, category by category information about aftermarket parts & holsters available, either as replacements for stock, or as enhancements, and lists and contact info, web, phone, & snail mail for each of those aftermarket manufacturers, updated regularly.
-Trigger guard type, squared or not, serrated or not
-Other stippling/checkering/serration enhancements, yes or no, frontstrap, backstrap, under trigger guard
-Several other categories that will be revolver-specific
-Cocking serrations description and location(s)
-Country of origin of manufacturer.
-Country where gun actually made and/or assembled
-Warranty information
-MSRP of gun and extra factory mags
-Dates of manufacture, for discontinued models
-Any guarantees that may be made by the manufacturer regarding accuracy, whatever, or lack thereof
-Any known, verifiable LEOA or military usage of the specific make and model under consideration, both past and present
-Specific results of scientific, controlled studies about reliability & accuracy with various ammo, etc., to the extent that it may be available.

One massive chart is what I want, updated regularly as new models are forthcoming.

P.S. If you know what women want, then you're the first in history, and should thus become rich beyond your wildest dreams with possession of this valuable esoteric knowledge.