Any one ever seen Sig kb or other problems?

[camaroman]

I cant recall ever seeing or hearing of a complaint of a Sig other than minor rusting. I was wondering if anyone else had seen kbs, cracked frames or slides etc.

[juliet charley]

The biggest complaint about SIGs is their rust-prone finish. If you want a weapon with real character (well worn) after a week's use, SIG is for you.

There have been some minor (and few and far between) problems with frame cracks in the earliest P226. As near as I can tell, it's non-problem with current production.

I'll probably stir up some flak with this, but the P220 in .45 ACP can be rough on small parts if shot a lot.

A lot of people complain about their relative high bore axis.

[Handy]

There was a short rash of cracked 229 slides. Some earlier black stainless guns tended to scour away the outside of barrels. Slide to frame fit is pretty variable, and increases with age. High round count guns eventually develop frame rail cracks.

"KB" is kind of an abused term. Guns detonate on occasion for a wide variety of reasons, including Sigs. The manner that Glocks do, which caused the term to be coined, is almost unheard of.

[ATW525]

Never personally had a problem other my P220 that wouldn't feed hollowpoints and the aforementioned rusting (which really isn't a problem if you maintain it).

That said, however, frames do crack, breech block pins crack, even forged slides have cracked. No pistol is perfect (Shhhh... don't tell the Cult of Gaston that), and no pistol is invincable. They all break sometime.

[camaroman]

Handy- if you would, be more specific about " The manner that Glocks do" and what is your overall opinion of Sig firearms.

Kb is well over used term thats for sure, I have seen detonations due to various ammo problems in XD's, 1911's, Glocks, and HK's.


juliet charley- I havent seen you shy away from flak yet Do you have any Sigs.


I have shot several and really like the Sig 229 in any caliber. But I have noticed triggers seem to vary alot. Some are awesome and others are blah.


edited to add

ATW- very true. I have several Glocks and havent ever had problems of any type( none of which are 40 though). But the G19 problems that NYPD is having is very puzzleing.

[juliet charley]

I've gone through several. I'm just not fond of decockers. I'll probably have to try a DAK trigger one of these days pretty soon.

I'm surprised this has stayed as level-headed as it has so far. Usually, there's few SIG-fanatics around that can put the Glock-fanatics to shame.

BTW, Dean Speir at one time had some shots of a current production P229 with a cracked slide on his site. You might want to see if you can find it and see what he said. He's not one to mince words.

[camaroman]

I havent had a chance to try the DAK trigger yet. I did try the HK DAO ( or whatever fancy name the have for it) and was not impressed. Hopefuly it will remain level headed around here

[OBIWAN]

I have heard of some longevity issues in departments that issued the 220

Mostly due to higher round counts than the average PD

I knew a guy with some nasty scars on one hand from a 226 that "broke"

Much like Glock, they sort of retrofitted a 9mm to handle 45 and had some issues

[P95Carry]

The way I sweat - stainless is only way to go (tho base of mag can rust if I am not careful!!)

[jonathon]

Every SIG kaboom I've read about seems as over blown as the few that have happened with Glocks, and each time it appeared to have been factory or personal reloads.

Reloads kill. Use only your own reloads.

[45 Fu]

So, I caught you! I knew it would happen at some point. So, everyone send me a case of any of the following ammo and I'll keep my mouth shut towards my fellow Gastonites. I'll accept the following:

.40, 9 mm, 7.62x39 mm

You may send .22 LR, but that will take five cases.


I thank you for your generosity.

[jonathon]

Caught who?

I've only read about Sigs. I bought a Glock

[camaroman]

What you dont want any .45 ammo? MR. 45


besides I have only shot a few Sigs. I usualy do that to make my Glocks jealous so they shoot better. Now if the trigger reach was a bit shorter, capacity a bit higher, and that darn decocker out of the way of my wrong trigger finger.... it might be diferent story

[Handy]

Cam,

"KB" is a term that best describes a case head failure where the pressure of the case exits around the breech and into the magwell. They behave suspiciously like the gun unlocked early.


Sigs 22Xs are very good guns, and one of the surest bets if you want an accurate and reliable combat gun. Much ado is made of their quality, but really the 220 was a testament to inexpensive 1970s production techniques. Paired with first rate QC, the guns came out just terrific. From that standpoint they were very similar to HK, but with much more conventional designs. They also feature among the best DA triggers of production DA/SA guns. And they employ an excellent and robust safety/fire control system for a duty type weapon.

I had a 225. It was a very good gun, but not as good as some of my slightly more outlandish Euro 9s, so I let it go. One thing I did NOT like was the placement of the slide release. It's in a strange spot compared to any other gun, and is really poor for left hand use.

With Sig you'll get a boringly wonderful performer that will last about as long as most other alloy framed guns.

[Morgan]

SIGs seem to be spring sensitive - keep the mag springs and recoil spring fresh, and they run well.

I've heard of slide cracks and such, but never seen it myself.

[N.H. Yankee]

I am a self proclaimed Sig addict, I feel that if you are looking for quality, reliability, and a sound track record Sig is at the top of names. The P220 was redesigned slightly a few years ago due to longterm metal fatigue and parts failure. The frame was beefed up and there were a few minor cosmetic changes, I have had exceptional service from their parts and support team. This is not to say Sigs are perfect and other guns are substandard, we all have our favorite manufacturer's. Sig has had some guns outside of the P22x series that really didnt impress me, but the P22x series and Sigpro are my favorite guns.

[Tamara]

I've seen cracked frames, cracked slides, cracked breechblocks, blown-up guns, and walking roll pins.

I have seen this because SIGs are guns, and all guns break.

I think SIGs break at a much lower frequency than the industry average. I have had the pleasure of owning several, and never had a lick of trouble with any of my personal SIGs.

[kgpcr]

Glocks in .40 are known for kabooms

[Ala Dan]

As you might imagine, I own several SIG's and have owned other several
others; with NO problems from any ot them. These include the .45/P220,
9mm/P226, 9mm/P228, and .40S&W/P229.

[Tamara]

Glocks in .40 are known for kabooms

I'll take "Complete non sequitirs" for $500, Alex.

[OBIWAN]

Some more recent feedback...from a LEO on another board

In the spring period of 2004 we transitioned to the P220R series of pistols, with the intent to furnish officers with rail mounted lights as funding became available. We also moved to the SIG factory 8 round magazine (which is a 7 round mag with one extra observation hole, a new baseplate & follower & a new spring I have come to find out.) No problems were noted during the initial transition phase.

Six months after our transition (about 1500 rounds through the weapon) I noticed the begining of a mushroom-shaped piece of wear and associated small crack at the rear of the breach block where it engages the hammer upon cocking. No similar wear was noted on the hammer, and no other points of contact were noted that would correspond. Additionally, the general wear of both the finish and the pistol was observed to be somewhat more than that of other weapons both personally and professionally used in my history. This was brought to the attention of our armorers & we observed it for another month; with the condition worsening the pistol was returned to SIG who replaced the breach block but provided no other statement or explanation.

During spring qualifications we began observing an abnormally large number of problems with both the weapons and the magazines. In terms of the weapons, again, the general wear of both finish and metal was FAR beyond anything in anyone's experience. Examples include grooves being worn into the slide rails, takedown lever holes being worn to almost twice the initial diameter, trigger pivot pins breaking in supported regions etc. Magazines were causing countless phase I and phase II stoppages with shooters of all ability levels (mine personally failed 5 times during a 50 round night fire course alone). Examination of magazines showed numerous cases of the springs displaying loss of tension and elasticity. One pistol with a documented 370 round count on it showed more overall wear than an "initial generation" department P220 SWAT pistol with over 15000 rounds documented. Please also bear in mind, probably 80% of officers don't fire more than 1000 rounds a year through their sidearms, so these are not high use weapons.

SIG was contacted in the early stages of the issues and had a factory rep respond, as well as countless phone calls. Having spoken with the department firearms coordinator, I have kept close track of this throughout. Long and short of all the explanations have boiled down to "We don't know why." Metalurgy, heat treatments, coatings and pretty much everything else they can think of have been checked with no definitive answers.

Lest we think this problem is limited to the P220 series, we have also been in contact with numerous other agencies using the SIG. The general consensus seems to be that for those agencies which have purchased newer weapons within the past couple of years, issues are cropping up far far faster than ever seen before. It does not seem to be limited to caliber, style or anything else - SIGs aren't lasting like they used to, and armorers are repairing a lot of them.

Repairs don't seem to be fixing the problem either - my breach block is starting to show the same signs of wear as the last one, and again at an "early" round count. Several other weapons are also showing the same.

Fortunately my department has addressed this issue proactively, a wise step considering the potential liability issues involved. A replacement has been identified and awaits final approval and budgeting for holsters. All officers have been given a 7 round magazine to replace the 8 round in the weapon, so at least our initial load SHOULD function as designed. They also have tried to inform as many other departments as possible throughout of the problems we are experiencing, so that others can be prepared if needed.

[P95Carry]

This is uncomfortably recent - and concerning.... and is the most concentrated neg feedback I have heard about.!

[Handy]

Wow, that's disturbing.

[OBIWAN]

MORE- Same Source

To provide a bit more information; our department is just under 600 sworn officrs and all P220s were replaced with P220R series in the Feb - May 04 time frame. The general problems did not begin cropping up until the same time period one year later, with scattered individual instances before and after (i.e. my breach block & others who have had isolated problems.) BUT, of note, it did seem to be a sudden, massive issue of magazine and pistol problems appearing at roughly one year after issue.

My information regarding issues with the P220R is first hand experience, or direct conversation with shooters, armorers, and regular beat cops. My information regarding general SIG problems in the recent series of weapons is annecdotal through our staff officer who is dealing with this issue. The best summation he gave me last night is that SIGs as a whole, PARTICULARLY the "recent" generation require far more maintenance and upkeep than similar weapons from other major manufacturers. To wit: our weapons as discussed all receive an annual armorer breakdown (as discussed in first post) with replacement of springs, roll pins, etc. Additionally, a portion of weapons in any year will require maintenance/repair due to other issues (unfortunately I don't have a number to associate with this). On the other hand, our local sheriff's department issues the Glock 22 and has for almost the same length of time we have the SIG - and in that time they have had to replace FIVE total parts due to repair issues - not 5 per weapon, but 5 out of probably 250... Hell, my own P220R beats that total in 2 months, much less 10 years... As for the anecdotal statements, it seems that everywhere we turn departments have become accustomed to replacing springs and minor parts on the SIGs - things that the agencies using some other weapons don't seem to do. And, before anyone starts on the "I must be expecting perfection" bandwagon - I am a very pro-maintenance individual, and I know that anything made by man will fail at some point. But to stretch my car analogy again - there is a difference between planning on replacing your oil filter every 3000 miles and in getting a car and planning a transmission rebuild on 10% of them every year. I have been unable to get a list or idea of if it is only the P22x series affected or SIGs in general from other departments, or if it is caliber specific - so as always YMMV.

Question was raised regarding ammunition use - we carry Speer Gold Dot +P 200 grain JHP, and use +P Speer Gold Dot TMJ for training.

In terms of SIGs response and what I can say; yes, we have been in close contact with the LEO sales rep, the engineers, and everyone up to the highest possible levels within the company. In terms of the engineering level the honest response has been a "they don't know" - and I have no doubt that they have examined things I would have never considered in terms of potential causes. I will partially rephrase my earlier statement in terms of the management response - they have expressed a willingness to replace any weapons we have an issue with. My concern, that of other officers, and the liability issue is - that doesn't solve the root problem. No one has established what is causing this weapon failure, no one has a fix, we can't get the old ones back, etc. Sure, if I'm a competition/recreational shooter & my gun breaks and they replace it all is golden. On the other hand, if I go on a call tonight, am called upon to use the weapon, and it fails due to these issues... sending a new one to my widow won't solve the problem I assure you. Furthermore, when you examine a political liability for a state/city/county in this issue, HUGE doors are opened that their legal reps hate - because now you have the potential accusation of a death/injury caused by a weapon that they knew was potentially faulty. For any who haven't dealt with lawyers in a case like this, visit your local piranha acquarium during feeding time...

[P95Carry]

I'm starting to get the jitters!