Seat Belt Laws: At Any Cost

[Rich Lucibella]

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/l...s/12429062.htm

DALLAS - A Peruvian man living in North Texas died Friday, two weeks after police used pepper spray on him when he reportedly resisted arrest.

Edgar Vera, 45, had been on life support in a hospital, said family attorney Steve Salazar. The attorney said he would decide after seeing the autopsy results whether to recommend a lawsuit.

"We want to make sure we get all the information so we can understand what happened," he said.

The two officers involved are on paid administrative leave, and the Allen Police Department, the FBI and the Texas Rangers are investigating, said Capt. Robert Flores.

Vera, a father of two, had been living and working in Arlington, about 15 miles west of Dallas. His relatives say he was legally in the country.

On Aug. 4, he was waiting outside another family member's house when Allen Police, responding to a call about a suspicious person, arrived and discovered that Vera had an outstanding warrant for a seat belt violation. The officers used pepper spray when he reported resisted arrest.

"He was mistreated," said a cousin, Luis Pacchioni.

The case has sparked outrage in Peru. Eduardo Rivoldi, Peru's Houston-based general consul, visited family and authorities in Texas last week, and plans to return Sunday.

"What we are asking all Peruvians is to share our pain and also our petition for justice for Edgar," his aunt, Amparo Morante, told CPN radio.

The U.S. Embassy in Lima issued a statement offering condolences to Vera's family.

Moral of the story? This father of two would still be alive today if we didn't insist that our LEO's enforce every single minor infraction thought up by every pinhead bureaucrat.
Rich

[BerettaCougar]

I agree with you 100% Rich.

OUTSTANDING WARRANT FOR SEATBELT VIOLATION!!!

I mean come on, whats next? warrants for j-walking?

[Ptown Beretta]

So, was he here legally? I wonder.

[Rich Lucibella]

So, was he here legally?

Not certain Ptown. If he were an illegal alien, would that make the action and his death more palatable to you? If not, then why ask the question?
Rich

[Ptown Beretta]

Because often the Newspapers gloss over that people are here illegaly.

And yes, if they were where they were supposed to be, I doubt they would be harrassed for a seatbelt violation.

[BerettaCougar]

And even if he was here illegaly.... if the police abused this guy then they should be punished..

But the article isnt clear as to what kind of resistance this guy put up, so we can't jump to conclusions.

[Wildcard]

I mean come on, whats next? warrants for j-walking?

I am sure its already here, we just have not heard about it yet.


If you really want to get you blood pressure up there, read this thread I came across at THR. I am still shaking my head.

I will copy and post it in a new thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153430

[Rich Lucibella]

And yes, if they were where they were supposed to be, I doubt they would be harrassed for a seatbelt violation.

And yes, if you come here illegally and .gov kills you for a seat belt violation, it's your fault.

Hmmm, we could apply that to Gun Owners next.
Rich

[ATW525]

Moral of the story... wear your seatbelt... it could save your life in more ways than you could ever imagine.

[Ptown Beretta]

It is not permitted for illegal aliens to own guns legally. I doubt that would be an issue.

[BerettaCougar]

Well Rich, he was killed because he resisted..the kind of resistance isnt listed... what if he pulled a weapon?

[OJ]

There has always been no shortage of fanatics who would "save us from ourselves" - hence the widespread "seat belt use laws". I was using seat belts before they were vevn very available (scavenged some airplane belts during my second of active duty for the Korean War) while I was in my surgical residency training at the county hospital in Detroit in the mid 50s and am a firm believer in the benefits. At the very least, it prevents ejection from the car and, in those ejected, 50% are dead at the scene - not counting those who die later in the hospital. However, I feel if a person is legally an adult, they should be responsible for their own decisions regarding safety issues like seat belt use. Really, the only risk they provide for others is, if they were belted, in case of accident, they are more likely to remain in position to control the car. Otherwise, they only risk their own safety.

A couple of years ago while I was still in surgical practice, a fellow surgeon who was fanatically promoting passage of a law requiring seat belt use gave me one of those "Buckle Up" stickers and made me promise to put it on my dash. When he later folllowed up, I assured him the sticker was on my dash. He never asked to see it and I suspect, knowing his opinion of motorcycles, he might have had a stroke if he had seen his sticker on the dash of my motorcycle.

[IMG][/IMG]

[sendec]

Oh come on. He apparently didnt pay his ticket, thus a warrant was issued. You'd rather we let people decide what fines they'll pay and which they wont? What difference does it make what the violation was? He had a chance at making his case in front of a court and decided not to. Then he resists and gets sprayed, what else is OC for?

And how could this have been avoided?: wear the damn belt, pay the freakin ticket, and dont pick a fight with the cops. But that would be too simple.

[QuickTrig]

And how could this have been avoided?: wear the damn belt, pay the freakin ticket, and dont pick a fight with the cops. But that would be too simple.

Amen, but thats to simple for TFL....we must make EVERYTHING a GIANT POLITICAL DISPUTE, we MUST, we HAVE to.

So I will leave it at this...

"Here we go again"

[Rich Lucibella]

Well Rich, he was killed because he resisted..the kind of resistance isnt listed... what if he pulled a weapon?

In the first place, whether he "resisted" is under investigation. In the second, please note what I wrote as the "moral" of the story:
"This father of two would still be alive today if we didn't insist that our LEO's enforce every single minor infraction thought up by every pinhead bureaucrat."

No LEO bashing in that statement; no conclusions as to whether he was resisting or not; simple observation that he'd be alive today if we weren't willing to haul people off to jail for failure to comply with laws that permeate every moment of our lives.

Sendec-
No need to put words in my mouth....I've a fair vocabulary, thanks:
In NC it's against the law not to pay your property taxes. Failure to do so: You can't renew your registration or license. Simple. Effective. Not one person has died in the enforcement action at DMV yet.
Rich

[BerettaCougar]

Rich I agree with you 100% when it comes to seatbelt laws...remember my seatbelt thread.

[Sarge]

Moral of the story? This father of two would still be alive today if we didn't insist that our LEO's enforce every single minor infraction thought up by every pinhead bureaucrat.
Rich

Close, but no cigar. We cops have got to have enough nads to say "No, that's an unconstitutional/dumb-assed/etc. law, and I am going to exercise my discretion and NOT write citations for it. That's all it takes. Back before you could "legally" carry a gun in your car in MO, I was ignoring these "violations" so long as the subject in question wasn't causing problems, and had no criminal history. Yes, it ****** some of my contemporaries off. I can still look in the mirror every morning, without looking away in disgust.

Cops need to grow some fur, and stop allowing the nanny state to use them for the "automaton enforcement unit."

[Wildcard]

Close, but no cigar. We cops have got to have enough nads to say "No, that's an unconstitutional/dumb-assed/etc. law, and I am going to exercise my discretion and NOT write citations for it. That's all it takes. Back before you could "legally" carry a gun in your car in MO, I was ignoring these "violations" so long as the subject in question wasn't causing problems, and had no criminal history. Yes, it ****** some of my contemporaries off. I can still look in the mirror every morning, without looking away in disgust.

I salute you sir, that is the best reply that I have read that gives a solution to the us vs them problem. Thank you for the common sense approach.

[shootinstudent]

No LEO bashing in that statement; no conclusions as to whether he was resisting or not; simple observation that he'd be alive today if we weren't willing to haul people off to jail for failure to comply with laws that permeate every moment of our lives.

I couldn't agree more. More Nanny-state regulations that require this kind of contact with the authorities means more opportunities for bad things to happen.

I sympathize with the family of this man and the police officers involved.

[Russ538]

Strangely ironic that a law designed to save his life in the event of a crash ended up leading to the cause of his death. I am not against seatbelts, but am against seatbelt laws.

My point is that this man ended up dead because of a law that not only interferes with his rights to make simple, basic daily life decisions, but a law that forces safety upon him in an attempt to save him from his own poor seatbelt decisions.

If the unnecessary law had not been in place in the first place, there would have been no problem with the police and he would still be alive.



BerettaCougar,

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in reading that seatbelt thread if you wouldn't mind posting a link.

[BerettaCougar]

It was closed... because I made a Nazi correlation. (current seatbelt laws and nazi control)

But another one was opened shortly without the correlation...

Mine.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=177217

[sendec]

"If the unnecessary law had not been in place in the first place, there would have been no problem with the police and he would still be alive."

And if his parents hadnt had sex he never would have been born, so it'd be moot.

He made a series of bad decisions - Whatever happened to personal responsibility? He made a series of decisions, he is responsible for their outcome.

And am I the only one who finds it ironic that Peru is complaining? It wasnt that long ago their police had death squads

[stephen426]

That article lacks some serious details. Like how the hell did he end up dying from getting pepper sprayed? What behaviour led to his being pepper sprayed? Was he asthmatic and did he have a reaction to the pepper spray? We are making some huge assumptions here. Regardless, I think issuing a warrent for a seatbelt violation is bogus. The nex step should have been a suspended license for not paying the fine. The if he was caught for driving with a suspended license, you can arrest him.

[Rich Lucibella]

He made a series of bad decisions - Whatever happened to personal responsibility? He made a series of decisions, he is responsible for their outcome.

Ummmmm, he made a decision not to timely pay for a seat belt violation. I hardly consider that worthy of death by asphyxiation, regardless of the circumstances.
Rich

[mark8252]

Like many here I am against any law that tries to tell me what to do when i am the only one effected.
I have no problem with say.......a law requiring glasses, goggles, or a windshield on a motorcycle for instance. If that driver is blinded he can cause anothers death.
If I am in an accident I am the only one hurt if i am not wearing a seat belt.
People need to mind their own business.