Unintentional discharges

BlueTrain · September 28, 2005, 08:56 AM

I mean from a gun, of course. Sooner or later, hopefully later, anyone who fools around with guns will have one go off at an unscheduled time and place. One man told me the hunting cabin he used share with friends had a lot of holes in the ceiling, for instance. I have had my share.

The funny thing is, they were with revolvers. You know, those things that are so easy to check to see if they are loaded or not. A surefire way, believe me, is to pull the trigger enough times. Fortunately, in my case, a concrete wall was all that got in the way. Both events took place in my basement with .38 specials and both times my wife was upstairs. She didn't get that upset and jus said, "Well, be more careful." Her forgiving attitude may have something to do with having a father who would pull something out of his closet to show me that I had never seen before and in some cases, never even heard of. Ever heard of a "Gamegetter?"

Another unintentional shot fired took place with a .22 rifle that would go off when you chambered a round. That took place when I was still rather young but I remember it quite clearly. In that case everyone was outside shooting various guns. This was in a place where everyone generally had a number of guns around, though not always the very best money could buy (more like all their money could buy). That and a couple of other things (like shipping a loaded rifle through UPS) made me wonder if people who are really familiar with guns are any safer in handling them than anyone else.

In any event, it is a little embarassing to admit doing dumb things but I have and they didn't all have to do with selling a nice gun, either.

HS · September 28, 2005, 10:27 AM

Damn..... and I thought this was going to be "interesting" LOL

I like to point out that if a FINGER is involved it is a NEGLIGENT discharge but if the weapon/rig is faulty in some way, then it is "accidental" BUT if you know the gun is UNSAFE then..... yer a person with a short life span

Trip20 · September 28, 2005, 11:02 AM

Just learn from your experiences/mistakes. Use them as a reminder of the "4 rules" importance.

BlueTrain · September 28, 2005, 11:14 AM

HS, were you ever in a negligent with your car? Besides, how do you discover that--oh, never mind.

I have learned a few things as I went along, sometimes after three or four lessons at that. One thing I learned is not to always take at face value things that great, learned men had to say. Elmer Keith thought it was safer if your guns were always loaded. I have decided otherwise, at least for myself.

On the other hand, I have never known another person who ever told me of having an unintentional discharge, other than the man telling about his hunting cabin. But then he was talking about other people.

Likewise, I have no personal knowledge of anyone being harmed by the accidental, unintentional or otherwise incidental discharge of a firearm or of anyone harmed by a "stray bullet," which appear to be common accross the river in D.C. I have personally known, however, six men and women who died from gunshot wounds, plus one more killed with a razor for good measure. I have only known personally one person who died in a car accident (or negligent).

hkg3 · September 28, 2005, 11:27 AM

I personally have never had a negligent discharge. However one of my friends accidentally shot his 1911 in the house thinking it was empty. He said he never really heard the shot. The bullet went through a few walls, and embedded in the tile in the shower.

Another buddy of mine shot himself in the foot with a .22.

elmrich · September 28, 2005, 11:47 AM

Check out this accidental discharge

http://www.filecabi.net/host/file/fe...icerdhoots/wmv

Rob P. · September 28, 2005, 11:50 AM

I actually have had 1 accidental discharge. I was working on an ancient .25 automatic that had a sticking slide. I had some dummy rounds to load the mag with and somehow stuck a live round (where it came from I have NO idea since there aren't any live rounds allowed in the room) in there instead. Racked the weapon, pulled the trigger and shot my glass fireplace screen to smithereens.

Funny thing was, the gun was on safe at the time too. Turns out there were some worn parts in there that I hadn't known about since I hadn't disassembled the weapon far enough due to the slide problem.

Rule #1 - never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot. Oh well, the fireplace started it.

BlueTrain · September 28, 2005, 11:52 AM

I might add that in both cases where I managed to unexpectedly fire a revolver in the basement, .38 special both times, that the report just sounded like a mild pop, although I assure you they were normal loads. But it is an interesting phenomenom nevertheless. Both times the bullet hit the concrete wall and just chipped the surface a little bit, which was also interesting. I don't recall where the bullets ended up but fortunately no other damage resulted.

It used to be normal in charts of pistol cartridges to give penetration in pine boards but that no longer appears to be so common.

Rojoe67 · September 28, 2005, 12:11 PM

You did what? more than once? Wow, get rid of that evil spirit in your basement or the 38 or both....... Or get better trained with your firearms. Glad I don't live near you. Not to be unkind but to be honest I just don't see making that ?mistake two times....... let alone once? Sorry....

BlueTrain · September 28, 2005, 12:58 PM

I apologize for having lived so long as to make the same mistake twice. It may be a good thing you don't live near me. However, I cannot document when these incidents occurred but I've lived in the same house for 18 years.
During that same period my car has been rammed twice sitting on the street in front of my house. Unintentionally, accidently and negligently.

Evil spirits, sun spots and the signs all wrong.

Dog Confetti · September 28, 2005, 09:04 PM

Gun are not bikes...gunowners are not destined to have an ND (and I do mean ND...I don't buy the whole AD line).

459 · September 28, 2005, 09:11 PM

perhaps a NRA safety course? Dont mean to be rude, but picking up a firearm and checking to see if its loaded by pulling the trigger multiple times makes me wonder whether you should own them. Dude if you forget post a safety poster in the area where you keep and or clean them..once is bad..twice is not acceptable..you couldve blasted your wife!!! and its a wheel gun to!!

blackmind · September 28, 2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Train

I mean from a gun, of course. Sooner or later, hopefully later, anyone who fools around with guns will have one go off at an unscheduled time and place. One man told me the hunting cabin he used share with friends had a lot of holes in the ceiling, for instance. I have had my share.

The funny thing is, they were with revolvers. You know, those things that are so easy to check to see if they are loaded or not. A surefire way, believe me, is to pull the trigger enough times. Fortunately, in my case, a concrete wall was all that got in the way.

Sorry, but this post sickens me.

For one thing, NO, not everyone who "fools around with guns" will have a NEGLIGENT discharge. Only people who use their guns irresponsibly will do so -- that includes people being cavalier or letting their attention lapse, of course.

It was not "fortunate" that a concrete wall was what got in the way. It should have been by design. If you had an ND and were "fortunate" that you shot only a concrete wall, it sounds to me like you:
- didn't keep your finger off the trigger
- didn't assure that the gun was unloaded
- were not even deliberately keeping the muzzle trained in a harmless directon (it just happened to be, "fortunately")

How many BASIC, RUDIMENTARY gun safety rules do you break in any given instance of gun handling??

You say you have had your "share"?! Geez, if I had even ONE ND, I'd be reexamining what I am doing owning guns. TWO, and I'd probably give them up. "MY SHARE"?! I'd probably ask someone to put a bullet in my own brain for me ('cause with "my share" of gun mishaps, chances are I'd screw that up if I did attempt it on my own).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Train

That and a couple of other things (like shipping a loaded rifle through UPS) made me wonder if people who are really familiar with guns are any safer in handling them than anyone else.

Oh, YOU screw up -- repeatedly -- with something as serious as guns, and now you want to project that everyone else must be as negligent as you are?

Get real.

Being "really familiar with guns" is not tantamount to being a responsible person, who will handle guns responsibly and with due care.

-blackmind

AndrewTB · September 28, 2005, 10:29 PM

I just got back from my class

.

INstructor said that a misfires or unintentional discharge isnt an accident nor a mistake. If you know the 4 rules its pure negligance.

Now having an actual mechanical error is a different thing.

HS · September 28, 2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

HS, were you ever in a negligent with your car?
Besides, how do you discover that--oh, never mind.

1.Yes I've had two minor a/d's with the car in my 25 years of driving - Both minor and avoidable

2.And how do you discover that....

Well I did say that "if you know" the gun is faulty= As in forwarned....

Now, I'm not purposely giveing you a HARD TIME, was just pointing out that finger off the trigger is the best safety available

HS · September 28, 2005, 11:29 PM

Ok, here's the best description of an ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE
Happened maybe 6 years ago, Police Officer (C.E.R.T. - Like SWAT)
here in Oz was testing a new thigh holster with his Glock.

As he drew the weapon the thumb break flap caught the trigger and BOOM !
Entered his leg travelled DOWN his femur and exited via his KNEE CAP

So this wasn't his normal carry rig, it was a TEST RIG, so I really don't think we could blame him too much for what happened.....

blackmind · September 29, 2005, 12:09 AM

He couldn't have TESTED the new rig WITHOUT AMMO IN THE GUN?

I motion that this be termed yet another NEGLIGENT discharge.

If he was not certain how the gun/holster combo would function together, and had never put the one into the other, he had no business doing so for the first time with LIVE AMMO.

In fact, it doesn't matter what the discipline is; the first time (or first few times, if not more) you use new gear, you do so cautiously, and you don't push it to the edge of the envelope.

The first time I used my skydive rig after I bought it, do you suppose I just threw it into high-performance hook-turn landings?

The people who do that, on new gear that they have not felt out thoroughly, get themselves killed.

(or kneecapped)

-blackmind

blackmind · September 29, 2005, 12:11 AM

How would the thumb break flap actuate the trigger on the DRAW?

Isn't it common to have such accidents occur when a gun is being replaced into its holster, since anything that gets caught in the trigger guard (thumb break flaps, perhaps?) PUSHES AGAINST the trigger, in a relative sense, as the gun is pushed forward?

-blackmind

HS · September 29, 2005, 01:39 AM

Ok, ya got me on semantics....

He may well have been holstering, he may have
had the holster as a test rig for weeks.
Geez it was a long time ago to remember specifics...LOL

Thought it was pertinent to the thread.

BlueTrain · September 29, 2005, 06:18 AM

Me again.
I never said that I shipped a loaded gun. The man who married my stepbrother's daughter was from Washington or Oregon sent his rifle to my stepbrother. I happened to be visiting there when it arrived and it happened to be loaded. No one else there knew how to unload the rifle without working the bolt (it was a bolt action).

Now, on to AndrewTB: your instructor groups misfires and unintentional discharges together?

I am also sorry this thread sickens anyone. It was intended to get to a basic issue with firearms (safety with a dangerous object). But don't be so hard on yourself and don't expect absolute perfection from people. You won't get it. People do learn from their mistakes, most of them anyway. And if it makes anyone happy, I don't do much shooting anymore. I am almost 60 and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, if it ever was. I now understand what my father was talking about when he complained about not being able to shoot. Then, too, they were just an interest. I know there is a first time for everything but so far I've never had an occasion when having a firearm would have been a good idea. That comment ought to get people talking, too.

I suppose all of you who have ever cut your self with a knife no longer "fool with" knives either. By they way, none of you are the sort that would pin down the grip safety on your 1911, are you?

Rob P. · September 29, 2005, 12:10 PM

Sorry Blackmind, but I disagree with you when you say:

Quote:

For one thing, NO, not everyone who "fools around with guns" will have a NEGLIGENT discharge...

For one thing, the odds are against you in ANY endeavor. No one can be safe always. Eventually the odds will catch up to you and a "mistake" will happen. You'll get a ticket in your car no matter how careful you are, you will slip on an icy sidewalk at some point, your ankle holster fails and you kick your gun across the floor at the post office, blink at the wrong moment, etc.

All you can do is try to be as safe as you can so that when the odds DO catch up to you the incident is minimized. In 30 years of shooting I have had ONE accidental/negligent discharge. Where the live round came from I don't know since I didn't have ANY .25 cal rounds at all except the 3 dummy rounds which I had made by pulling the bullets, dumping the powder and firing the caps one at a time in the gun. Other than those 3 rounds there WERE NO OTHER ROUNDS IN THE BUILDING for that weapon. I had also fully cycled the weapon several times previously with no problems or discharges using those same 3 rounds. As the hammer is not exposed and the safety does not cause the hammer to fall to a safe position (it only locks the hammer in a cocked position), the only way to return the weapon to neutral battery is to pull the trigger. I did so and a dummy round fired. So, what happened? I have no idea except to say that Fate stuck her magic fingers into my life and the result was a dead fireplace screen.

Was this negligence on my part? Certainly. Exactly what I did incorrectly is a mystery. All I can say is that it happened, I am not ashamed of it and I learned something from the experience - I practice safety even when working on "unloaded" guns because even a gun that I have personally unloaded can still kill or injure if pointed at someone.

Here's my thought for the day (I was told this once and find it to be true): You may be THE BEST THERE IS OR EVER WAS in everything possible. Numero Uno Par Excellante. Great for you, however, that means that the "best" that anyone else could possibly be is Second Best. Being Second Best means that you make at least one mistake at some point. I am not perfect, are you?

BlueTrain · September 29, 2005, 01:10 PM

I don't want to belabor the point but there are other embarassing things that can happen, too. For one thing, I would suggest not going to the range to shoot your .45 LC and your .44 Magnum the same day.

I don't know where you go to shoot (remember, I've just about given that up, but something is in my blood, lead, I guess) but the one I visit has a nice collection of exploded handguns, all old revolvers. I never asked about the circumstances of any of them but someone made a mistake along the way. Not necessarily the first one or the last one.

Now I will freely admit to having done stupid things now and then and lived to tell about it. But the world I live in isn't that safe to begin with and I manage. I did avoid shooting the cat or the plate glass door and I learned a lesson. I am sure I have other lessons to be learned, too, not necessarily having to do with unintentional discharges but with guns all the same. Some are cheap, some are costly, none particularly dangerous. Like for instance, do you realize how easy it is to bend the spring on the slide stop of a Colt .380? Or how sharp the edges are on extended safeties on a .45 Auto?

Does anyone remember the fast draw craze with single actions in the 1950's? There were lots of accidents then but at the moment I can't think of a similar shooting action sport that was nearly so dangerous, at least when real ammuntion or even wax bullets are used.

Here's another case. At one time the accepted practice, meaning the official US Army manual practice, was to carry a .45 auto with the hammer down on a chambered round. It is completely safe to carry it that way but getting it into that condition is tricky, to say the least. It might also help to only use military issue ammuntion (harder primers) but I wonder when they changed their practice? That was when they were still carrying only five rounds in revolvers.

Accidents happen and they are all unfortunate. Safety practices can always be improved up to a point, meaning the point at which it is decided that firearms are just too dangerous to have around under any circumstances. So don't fall into that trap. I believe people have the right (not SHOULD have the right) to own firearms unconditionally.

MikeOrick · September 29, 2005, 02:13 PM

By now most of us have seen the DEA agents ND w his Glock (hit leg) in front of an audience...

Another DEA agent had an ND w his Glock stuffing it in his waistband prior to cuffing a suspect (hit butt)...

A US Marshal had an ND w his Glock aboard a commercial aircraft (holstering; hit leg)...

Numerous FBI agents have had NDs w Glocks in the FBI academy range cleaning room. The FBI director's driver shot himself in the hand w his Glock...

A LE trainee in GA was shot and killed by a LE instructor w his Glock...

A LE trainee here shot herself in the leg w her Glock...

I'm not picking on Glocks, there are just so many of them out there now...

Wait! There's more!

A USAF guard shot the wing (3 round burst) of the fully fueled tanker aircraft he was guarding...

A US Army troop shot a round of HE from his M203 grenade launcher through the roof of the van he was in; the unexploded round landed on top of the armory...

Two USAF guards were quick drawing on each other, and one shot the other...

An A-10 aircraft shot a 30mm round through both sides of the maint van parked in front of it, and the round hit a power substation near the flightline...

If it can happen, it will, sooner or later?

BlueTrain · September 29, 2005, 02:49 PM

You should read Skeeter Skelton's story of when he was practicing fast draw in front of a mirror when he was, I believe, a Border Patrolman. And the lengths he went to cover up the incident. He did admit, however, not being any faster than the guy in the mirrow.

AndrewTB · September 29, 2005, 04:23 PM

No my instructor didnt group them together. But to have a misfire not once but twice on the same gun from the sounds of it is pure negligence.

What I meant is if you have a discharge due to a mechanical failure I dont blame you for being negligent but the gun doesn't seem to be in safe condition if its happend more then once.

September 28, 2005, 10:27 AM	#2
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Damn..... and I thought this was going to be "interesting" LOL I like to point out that if a FINGER is involved it is a NEGLIGENT discharge but if the weapon/rig is faulty in some way, then it is "accidental" BUT if you know the gun is UNSAFE then..... yer a person with a short life span __________________ *Some* people are like Slinkies ... Not really good for anything...... But they still bring a smile to your face when you *push* them down a flight of stairs. *Unfortunately* everyone has an opinion [q] ME [/q] "The Gun from Down Under !" Gordon Cross Brisbane Australia ge_cross@hotmail.com ICQ # 68806935

September 28, 2005, 11:27 AM	#5
hkg3 Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1999 Location: Kalifornia, on my way to Arizona Posts: 1,149	I personally have never had a negligent discharge. However one of my friends accidentally shot his 1911 in the house thinking it was empty. He said he never really heard the shot. The bullet went through a few walls, and embedded in the tile in the shower. Another buddy of mine shot himself in the foot with a .22. __________________ "The next time I shoot somebody I could be arrested." - Lt. Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

September 28, 2005, 12:11 PM	#9
Rojoe67 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: Wolverine State Posts: 768	Blue You did what? more than once? Wow, get rid of that evil spirit in your basement or the 38 or both....... Or get better trained with your firearms. Glad I don't live near you. Not to be unkind but to be honest I just don't see making that ?mistake two times....... let alone once? Sorry....

September 28, 2005, 11:29 PM	#16
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Ok, here's the best description of an ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE Happened maybe 6 years ago, Police Officer (C.E.R.T. - Like SWAT) here in Oz was testing a new thigh holster with his Glock. As he drew the weapon the thumb break flap caught the trigger and BOOM ! Entered his leg travelled DOWN his femur and exited via his KNEE CAP So this wasn't his normal carry rig, it was a TEST RIG, so I really don't think we could blame him too much for what happened..... __________________ *Some* people are like Slinkies ... Not really good for anything...... But they still bring a smile to your face when you *push* them down a flight of stairs. *Unfortunately* everyone has an opinion [q] ME [/q] "The Gun from Down Under !" Gordon Cross Brisbane Australia ge_cross@hotmail.com ICQ # 68806935

September 29, 2005, 01:39 AM	#19
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Ok, ya got me on semantics.... He may well have been holstering, he may have had the holster as a test rig for weeks. Geez it was a long time ago to remember specifics...LOL Thought it was pertinent to the thread. __________________ *Some* people are like Slinkies ... Not really good for anything...... But they still bring a smile to your face when you *push* them down a flight of stairs. *Unfortunately* everyone has an opinion [q] ME [/q] "The Gun from Down Under !" Gordon Cross Brisbane Australia ge_cross@hotmail.com ICQ # 68806935

September 28, 2005, 08:56 AM	#1
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	Unintentional discharges I mean from a gun, of course. Sooner or later, hopefully later, anyone who fools around with guns will have one go off at an unscheduled time and place. One man told me the hunting cabin he used share with friends had a lot of holes in the ceiling, for instance. I have had my share. The funny thing is, they were with revolvers. You know, those things that are so easy to check to see if they are loaded or not. A surefire way, believe me, is to pull the trigger enough times. Fortunately, in my case, a concrete wall was all that got in the way. Both events took place in my basement with .38 specials and both times my wife was upstairs. She didn't get that upset and jus said, "Well, be more careful." Her forgiving attitude may have something to do with having a father who would pull something out of his closet to show me that I had never seen before and in some cases, never even heard of. Ever heard of a "Gamegetter?" Another unintentional shot fired took place with a .22 rifle that would go off when you chambered a round. That took place when I was still rather young but I remember it quite clearly. In that case everyone was outside shooting various guns. This was in a place where everyone generally had a number of guns around, though not always the very best money could buy (more like all their money could buy). That and a couple of other things (like shipping a loaded rifle through UPS) made me wonder if people who are really familiar with guns are any safer in handling them than anyone else. In any event, it is a little embarassing to admit doing dumb things but I have and they didn't all have to do with selling a nice gun, either.

September 28, 2005, 11:02 AM	#3
Trip20 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: WI Posts: 2,181	Just learn from your experiences/mistakes. Use them as a reminder of the "4 rules" importance.

September 28, 2005, 11:14 AM	#4
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	HS, were you ever in a negligent with your car? Besides, how do you discover that--oh, never mind. I have learned a few things as I went along, sometimes after three or four lessons at that. One thing I learned is not to always take at face value things that great, learned men had to say. Elmer Keith thought it was safer if your guns were always loaded. I have decided otherwise, at least for myself. On the other hand, I have never known another person who ever told me of having an unintentional discharge, other than the man telling about his hunting cabin. But then he was talking about other people. Likewise, I have no personal knowledge of anyone being harmed by the accidental, unintentional or otherwise incidental discharge of a firearm or of anyone harmed by a "stray bullet," which appear to be common accross the river in D.C. I have personally known, however, six men and women who died from gunshot wounds, plus one more killed with a razor for good measure. I have only known personally one person who died in a car accident (or negligent).

September 28, 2005, 11:47 AM	#6
elmrich Member Join Date: April 28, 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 62	Check out this accidental discharge http://www.filecabi.net/host/file/fe...icerdhoots/wmv

September 28, 2005, 11:50 AM	#7
Rob P. Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2005 Posts: 469	I actually have had 1 accidental discharge. I was working on an ancient .25 automatic that had a sticking slide. I had some dummy rounds to load the mag with and somehow stuck a live round (where it came from I have NO idea since there aren't any live rounds allowed in the room) in there instead. Racked the weapon, pulled the trigger and shot my glass fireplace screen to smithereens. Funny thing was, the gun was on safe at the time too. Turns out there were some worn parts in there that I hadn't known about since I hadn't disassembled the weapon far enough due to the slide problem. Rule #1 - never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot. Oh well, the fireplace started it.

September 28, 2005, 11:52 AM	#8
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	I might add that in both cases where I managed to unexpectedly fire a revolver in the basement, .38 special both times, that the report just sounded like a mild pop, although I assure you they were normal loads. But it is an interesting phenomenom nevertheless. Both times the bullet hit the concrete wall and just chipped the surface a little bit, which was also interesting. I don't recall where the bullets ended up but fortunately no other damage resulted. It used to be normal in charts of pistol cartridges to give penetration in pine boards but that no longer appears to be so common.

September 28, 2005, 12:58 PM	#10
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	I apologize for having lived so long as to make the same mistake twice. It may be a good thing you don't live near me. However, I cannot document when these incidents occurred but I've lived in the same house for 18 years. During that same period my car has been rammed twice sitting on the street in front of my house. Unintentionally, accidently and negligently. Evil spirits, sun spots and the signs all wrong.

September 28, 2005, 09:04 PM	#11
Dog Confetti Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 213	Gun are not bikes...gunowners are not destined to have an ND (and I do mean ND...I don't buy the whole AD line).

September 28, 2005, 09:11 PM	#12
459 Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2005 Posts: 290	perhaps a NRA safety course? Dont mean to be rude, but picking up a firearm and checking to see if its loaded by pulling the trigger multiple times makes me wonder whether you should own them. Dude if you forget post a safety poster in the area where you keep and or clean them..once is bad..twice is not acceptable..you couldve blasted your wife!!! and its a wheel gun to!!

September 28, 2005, 10:29 PM	#14
AndrewTB Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2005 Posts: 677	I just got back from my class . INstructor said that a misfires or unintentional discharge isnt an accident nor a mistake. If you know the 4 rules its pure negligance. Now having an actual mechanical error is a different thing.

September 29, 2005, 12:09 AM	#17
blackmind Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	He couldn't have TESTED the new rig WITHOUT AMMO IN THE GUN? I motion that this be termed yet another NEGLIGENT discharge. If he was not certain how the gun/holster combo would function together, and had never put the one into the other, he had no business doing so for the first time with LIVE AMMO. In fact, it doesn't matter what the discipline is; the first time (or first few times, if not more) you use new gear, you do so cautiously, and you don't push it to the edge of the envelope. The first time I used my skydive rig after I bought it, do you suppose I just threw it into high-performance hook-turn landings? The people who do that, on new gear that they have not felt out thoroughly, get themselves killed. (or kneecapped) -blackmind

September 29, 2005, 12:11 AM	#18
blackmind Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	How would the thumb break flap actuate the trigger on the DRAW? Isn't it common to have such accidents occur when a gun is being replaced into its holster, since anything that gets caught in the trigger guard (thumb break flaps, perhaps?) PUSHES AGAINST the trigger, in a relative sense, as the gun is pushed forward? -blackmind

September 29, 2005, 06:18 AM	#20
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	Me again. I never said that I shipped a loaded gun. The man who married my stepbrother's daughter was from Washington or Oregon sent his rifle to my stepbrother. I happened to be visiting there when it arrived and it happened to be loaded. No one else there knew how to unload the rifle without working the bolt (it was a bolt action). Now, on to AndrewTB: your instructor groups misfires and unintentional discharges together? I am also sorry this thread sickens anyone. It was intended to get to a basic issue with firearms (safety with a dangerous object). But don't be so hard on yourself and don't expect absolute perfection from people. You won't get it. People do learn from their mistakes, most of them anyway. And if it makes anyone happy, I don't do much shooting anymore. I am almost 60 and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, if it ever was. I now understand what my father was talking about when he complained about not being able to shoot. Then, too, they were just an interest. I know there is a first time for everything but so far I've never had an occasion when having a firearm would have been a good idea. That comment ought to get people talking, too. I suppose all of you who have ever cut your self with a knife no longer "fool with" knives either. By they way, none of you are the sort that would pin down the grip safety on your 1911, are you?

September 29, 2005, 01:10 PM	#22
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	I don't want to belabor the point but there are other embarassing things that can happen, too. For one thing, I would suggest not going to the range to shoot your .45 LC and your .44 Magnum the same day. I don't know where you go to shoot (remember, I've just about given that up, but something is in my blood, lead, I guess) but the one I visit has a nice collection of exploded handguns, all old revolvers. I never asked about the circumstances of any of them but someone made a mistake along the way. Not necessarily the first one or the last one. Now I will freely admit to having done stupid things now and then and lived to tell about it. But the world I live in isn't that safe to begin with and I manage. I did avoid shooting the cat or the plate glass door and I learned a lesson. I am sure I have other lessons to be learned, too, not necessarily having to do with unintentional discharges but with guns all the same. Some are cheap, some are costly, none particularly dangerous. Like for instance, do you realize how easy it is to bend the spring on the slide stop of a Colt .380? Or how sharp the edges are on extended safeties on a .45 Auto? Does anyone remember the fast draw craze with single actions in the 1950's? There were lots of accidents then but at the moment I can't think of a similar shooting action sport that was nearly so dangerous, at least when real ammuntion or even wax bullets are used. Here's another case. At one time the accepted practice, meaning the official US Army manual practice, was to carry a .45 auto with the hammer down on a chambered round. It is completely safe to carry it that way but getting it into that condition is tricky, to say the least. It might also help to only use military issue ammuntion (harder primers) but I wonder when they changed their practice? That was when they were still carrying only five rounds in revolvers. Accidents happen and they are all unfortunate. Safety practices can always be improved up to a point, meaning the point at which it is decided that firearms are just too dangerous to have around under any circumstances. So don't fall into that trap. I believe people have the right (not SHOULD have the right) to own firearms unconditionally.

September 29, 2005, 02:13 PM	#23
MikeOrick Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2005 Posts: 144	By now most of us have seen the DEA agents ND w his Glock (hit leg) in front of an audience... Another DEA agent had an ND w his Glock stuffing it in his waistband prior to cuffing a suspect (hit butt)... A US Marshal had an ND w his Glock aboard a commercial aircraft (holstering; hit leg)... Numerous FBI agents have had NDs w Glocks in the FBI academy range cleaning room. The FBI director's driver shot himself in the hand w his Glock... A LE trainee in GA was shot and killed by a LE instructor w his Glock... A LE trainee here shot herself in the leg w her Glock... I'm not picking on Glocks, there are just so many of them out there now... Wait! There's more! A USAF guard shot the wing (3 round burst) of the fully fueled tanker aircraft he was guarding... A US Army troop shot a round of HE from his M203 grenade launcher through the roof of the van he was in; the unexploded round landed on top of the armory... Two USAF guards were quick drawing on each other, and one shot the other... An A-10 aircraft shot a 30mm round through both sides of the maint van parked in front of it, and the round hit a power substation near the flightline... If it can happen, it will, sooner or later?

September 29, 2005, 02:49 PM	#24
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,010	You should read Skeeter Skelton's story of when he was practicing fast draw in front of a mirror when he was, I believe, a Border Patrolman. And the lengths he went to cover up the incident. He did admit, however, not being any faster than the guy in the mirrow.

September 29, 2005, 04:23 PM	#25
AndrewTB Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2005 Posts: 677	No my instructor didnt group them together. But to have a misfire not once but twice on the same gun from the sounds of it is pure negligence. What I meant is if you have a discharge due to a mechanical failure I dont blame you for being negligent but the gun doesn't seem to be in safe condition if its happend more then once.