Waco: a look back

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Learning Lessons from Waco: When the Parties Bring Their Gods to the Negotiation Table (Religion and Politics) by Jayne Seminare Docherty (Paperback - December 2001)


This is it, Lee. Found it on amazon.

[Number 6]

"'Waco: The Rules of Engagement'
If you see it for rent anywhere, it's well worth watching."

I've seen it on tv, open cable, numerous times in two vastly separated states. Check your listings.

[Ultima-Ratio]

So long ago, I recall the family listening to AM radio from Denver and reports of shotsfired into the church just before the fire.
It turns out that West Point grad Lon Horiouchi did some shooting from a sniper nest across the way.
Lon is living comfortably at quantico and suposedly chief sniper instructor.

[Master Blaster]

[Number 6]

The Hero of Ruby Ridge? He who shot a mother's jaw off while she held an infant in one arm and the door open for men under fire with the other? Wow - a regular Carlos Hathcock..........

"It turns out that West Point grad Lon Horiouchi did some shooting from a sniper nest across the way."

[butch50]

What is different now, in my mind, from back then, is that I have more and more disgust for both the FBI and ATF. As the years pass they still have not admitted their fault in the killing of innocent and helpless children.

At some point they should both admit that they were wrong, admit that they made grievous mistakes and killed those babies for no reason, proclaim that they have learned from their mistakes, punish the evil actors among them that perpetrated the Waco mass murder atrocity, and move forward.

The longer it takes them to do that the more disgusted I get.

[Redondo]

"What happened"? It is pretty obvious isn't it? A guy who thought he was Jesus, was about to take over the whole damn country. Of course our government needed to kill him, some kids around him, and snuff it out pronto! We can't have stuff like that going on, especially in Texas. The whole thing coulda got out of control. Besides, Janet Reno said there was child abuse going on!! We put a stop to that too!! Not one of those burned up kids were ever abused, not once, after our government stepped in!!! All in all, a very successfull operation.

[BerettaCougar]

Redondo.
I hope youre being sarcastic.

[Redondo]

BerettaCougar, you weren't one of those Floridians that tripped over those hanging chads, were you?

[sendec]

Wow, I didnt know you could hold hostages and then get the gummint blamed when as a direct result of your failure to surrender they die.

[Number 6]

"Wow, I didnt know you could hold hostages and then get the gummint blamed when as a direct result of your failure to surrender they die."

Wow, I didn't know that a "Hostage Rescue Team" that:

Refuses to negotiate;

Uses military weapons systems (tanks) against civilians on US soil;

Drives said tanks through structures the alleged "hostages" are in;

Deploys incendiary tear gas munitions in a structure known to have fuel lanterns in use;

Burns/suffocates the woman and children that are supposed to be rescued; and

Pours automatic weapons fire into the burning structure, pinning down anyone trying to escape the blaze the "rescuers" created;

qualifies as even remotely competent, never mind a "rescue" unit....

[Dave B]

I expect that any public employee (police, military, federal leos, etc) given orders that were morally and/or legally wrong would refuse to carry out those orders.

I don't care who issues the orders.

db

[SIGSHR]

Waco was a Federal version of the confrontation that Phildelphia had with
the MOVE group back in 1985. In that case, the liberal authorities, to show
how tough they were, used excessive force, they dropped a bomb on the house that MOVE was holed up in, ended up burning down the entire block. And of course they didn't apologize. Remember that a fundamental tenet of modern liberalism is that "the government can do no wrong".

[Double Naught Spy]

Not to worry Number 6, the women and children did not suffocate or burn to death. They were shot. They were dead long before the fire got them.

[Mr. James]

Wow, I didnt know you could hold hostages and then get the gummint blamed when as a direct result of your failure to surrender they die.

Wow, I didn't know such tendentious statements would appear on TFL...

+1, Number 6.

[Number 6]

"Not to worry Number 6, the women and children did not suffocate or burn to death. They were shot. They were dead long before the fire got them."

Autopsy reports on those found in the "bunker" - the buried bus under the compound - indicated otherwise from what I've seen. COD was given as smoke inhalation and burning, depending upon where the body was in the layers of the dead.

We're supposed to believe Challenger's crew died in the initial explosion, too......

[butch50]

Wow, I didnt know you could hold hostages and then get the gummint blamed when as a direct result of your failure to surrender they die.

Before the feds took an interest the children were healthy and in no danger. After the feds left the children were dead. Before feds live children, after feds dead children. Before live, after dead. I don't think I can boil it down any more than that.

[molonlabe]

And you know, I still remember the day that I walked into the break room where I worked and everybody sat in awe of the drama unfolding before them. I got in front of the room and said "Does this bother anyone" The ALL replied with the mantra "But he was abusing kids".

You know psycops is a fascinating thing. You can use emotional hot button issues to justify and get the masses to condone all sorts of evil things. I replied that that was not the job of the BATF or the FBI then they said “Well they had machine guns” All of which has never been proven in the aftermath. Reno and staff played the public like a fine fiddle. And they watched it like a hollywierd movie.

[butch50]

Very few people seem to be able to think for themselves. Seems that most people would rather take the word of "authority" than to analyze the facts and reach their own conclusions.

IIRC there was a famous experiment where total strangers on a street were bossed around by someone wearing a white lab coat and holding a clip board, and they found that nearly everyone they gave orders to followed them without question. The white lab coat and clipboard imbuing the experimenter with an aura of authority.

[Redondo]

I'm always amazed when this comes up, the responses to it, and the Ruby Ridge fiasco. To this day, I don't understand how you can kill a woman, standing with a baby in her arms, and end up a hero to some folks. How government actions can end up in burned kids, and some think the actions justified. Both Koresh and Weaver could have did things differently, and helped avert the terrible results. How that somehow clears our government, and it's "jack booted thugs", is beyond me!!!!!!!

[biere]

Some of the original c-span footage of the investigation afterwards makes me sick. I believe schumer, chucky is in some of the footage and as always he is such a stand up character.

Some research into the "trial" the survivors received afterwards is also a bit eye opening. Though with today's terrorist laws and what not it pales in comparison a bit.

There is a fair amount of footage out there if you wish to take some time and go read some books and track down some videos. And the footage shows that the 5 o'clock news version is not true. It may have some shades of truth in it but when you start looking and start finding some credable info to back up more credable info from credable witnesses, you might just change what you think.

[deanf]

Wow, I didnt know you could hold hostages and then get the gummint blamed when as a direct result of your failure to surrender they die.

Who said anything about hostages?

As far as my research (reading texts of interviews with Waco victims) shows, everyone was free to leave at any time.

[progunner1957]

Do you hold the same opinion today as you did back then?

Yes, I do. IMHO, Reichmarshall Reno was looking for a fight from the beginning. She was out to show that she was in charge.

When the operation went to... "feces," Federal troops were fired upon and the Davidians holed up and refused to come out. After weeks of being made to look impotent and incompetent, "The Government" threw a gigantic tantrum and burned alive the adults in the compound as well as the children they were supposedly there to "save."

The children were allegedly being molested, according to Reno and her lackeys. This after SEVEN seperate surprise visits by Texas child welfare workers that found the children to be well fed, well dressed, clean and apparently happy with NO EVIDENCE of molestation or mistreatment.

I'm sure the children are much better off, having been burned alive by Reno and her troops; after all, it was for their own good.

[Hugh Damright]

I expect that any public employee (police, military, federal leos, etc) given orders that were morally and/or legally wrong would refuse to carry out those orders. I don't care who issues the orders.

I keep wondering how in the world can anyone make such a statement? As a Southerner, I know damn well that the government can order people to attack my State and they will do so. And just a few weeks ago the NG was going door to door in New Orleans confiscating weapons ... was that moral or legal ... did the NG refuse to carry out their orders?

And this thread is about Waco, where there was no moral or legal reason to storm the Church, yet I don't remember the ATF agents saying "no, we will not storm a church for a publicity stunt".

[Bravo25]

I expect that any public employee (police, military, federal leos, etc) given orders that were morally and/or legally wrong would refuse to carry out those orders.

I don't care who issues the orders.

db

Ruby Ridge, Waco, an administration that sold a whole country on a war based on WMD's that still haven't shown up, NOLA, and now the talk of using the military for quarentine, and you can still believe this? what about the soldier who stood up, and questioned Rumsfield on the promised supplies? Why do you think the government has an Ad compaign, press staff, and advisors?