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Old November 30, 2005, 05:12 PM   #1
Chuckstar
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Best EOTWAWKI Gun - NYC (no CCW, 10-rd mags)

OK, I know questions like this have been asked tons of times, but I feel like I have a unique twist on it. I'm looking for a handgun that will satisfy two criteria.

First, it should be fun to shoot.

Second, it will be my SHTF gun in case of really bad stuff happening in New York. (Bird flu looting, terrorist attack, gasoline riots, whatever)

What makes this different than other questions is that we still have the 10-round magazine law in NYC and there's no CCW, so I don't have to worry about concealment.

Without the mag limit, I think I would have gone with HK USP or SigP226. But I wasn't sure if I could get pre-ban mags for those. Even if I could get pre-ban mags, wasn't sure if mags that old would generally be reliable. If I can't get pre-ban mags then it doesn't make sense to get a double-column gun, so it might make sense to get something else.

I'm thinking of an automatic because (for me) it fits the "fun to shoot" criteria better -- which is the primary reason for buying it. Additionally, I was thinking of a SA because of the fun factor, but I am still debating it because DA seems to be simpler for the end-of-the-world-fight-my-way-out-of-NYC situation.

As far as caliber, I've seen way too many caliber debates, so that's not the point of this question.

Also, interested in everyone's thoughts about a holster. Since I can't CCW, a holster would only be used (outside of the range) for the really worst-case scenario where the city's gone to hell but I can't just stay in my apartment (for whatever reason). It should be concealable, since I still wouldn't be open carrying, but it wouldn't be something I'd be concealing every day, just for that end-of-the-world scenario where I could easily just wear a big jacket or something. So, easy to draw from, and plenty of magazine storage.
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Old November 30, 2005, 05:18 PM   #2
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You can't shoot the archangel Gabriel

...when he blows the trumpet, so when the world ends, I'm thinking this isn't going to be a concern

Sorry, couldn't resist. I think that in case of utter civil breakdown (which is what I expect you meant) I'd want a room full of ammo for my .243. Doesn't make the biggest holes, but it makes some doggone accurate ones. I love that rifle. And I could play all day if I had enough ammo for it.

So when the Martians come marching down Cypresswood Drive, give me about a hundred cases of .243 and room on the roof. Oh, yes, and lots of Diet Cherry Coke (must stay awake to shoot Martians... must stay awake to shoot Martians)

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Old November 30, 2005, 07:44 PM   #3
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Chuck... since you said EOTWAWKI gun, not handgun, I'd use the soon-to-be-mine ArmaLite AR-10A2 carbine and about a billion rounds of ammo (or as many as I could carry on my person/car/post-nuclear brachiosaurus/whatever).

Mom - I agree that you can't shoot the archangel Gabriel when he blows his trumpet. But you could always ask Miles Davis to come back to the land of the living and show Gabe how that particular instrument is meant to be played. If there's a point to that. I dunno. I'm bored.
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Old November 30, 2005, 07:54 PM   #4
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Concealable but big enough to actually hold on to when shooting.

Find out what NYPD is packing. If it's a glock 22 (.40 full size) get the glock semi-compact that will use that ammo and those magazines.

Match your ammo and mags to the police weapons if possible. They may be your best source for reloads.

Or beretta 92 in 9mm. You know the army boys will have that.

Or a good ole 1911. Probably 25% of the remaining guns out there will have matching magazines...
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Old November 30, 2005, 08:42 PM   #5
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Errr AAAAHH I have been convinced and I know this isn't an illusion That the 22 short mini revolver is just the ticket for the eotwawki. This dragon slayer is state of the art and gives you the abilty to slay five different targets at any range before having to remove the cylinder and punch out the spent cases with the cylinder pin just before you make you speedy reload.

Body armour? no problemo, as the accuracy is so good you can hit an eye socket any time you can see an eye. Power? More than enough to send the most harden criminal to an intant grave. Better yet you can carry 5 of these for the price of one of those inferior 1911s.

25
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Old November 30, 2005, 10:17 PM   #6
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Any gun? I'd want an armored bus, lots of gasoline, several crates of 7.62x39, an AK47, and the "Welcome to NYC" sign receding quickly in my rearview mirror.

Has to be a handgun? I'd go revolver, .357 Magnum, 6" barrel, either a stainless Ruger GP100 or S&W 686 Plus.
  • 6" barrel provides better sight radius, and shouldn't be a problem since the SHTF and I don't have to conceal it
  • Better ballistics at longer ranges than many other handgun cartridges, such as 9x19 or .45ACP
  • Plenty deadly at self defense ranges
  • Ammunition should be plentiful as it is very common
  • Will shoot 110gr standard pressure .38's, 180gr .357's, and everything in between
  • No worries about FTF or FTE issues; just about any bullet type will do, standard to exotic
  • Should you run across another .357/.38 revolver (also common) you'll already be packing ammo for it
  • Easier to shoot than a .44 Magnum (at least for me)
  • I don't know, but I bet either gun is already legal in NY state, and maybe NYC
My GP100 is very fun to shoot, too. YMMV.

jmm
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Old November 30, 2005, 11:22 PM   #7
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Hmm -- I would feel better with 2 guns in that situation, but keep in mind that either one of the ones I'm suggesting would do the job by itself.

First, I'd opt for a good pump 12 gauge SD shotgun, a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 come to mind. Get some nice 00 Buckshot and some slugs for it. After all, concealment isn't an issue, it is the EOTWAWKI.

Second, I'd be packing my 4" S&W 686 on my hip, OWB -- again, no point bothering about concealment. Any number of other .357 Mag revolvers would do just as well. Reasoning? See grimjaw's post above, that pretty well covers it. I'd opt for the 4" barrel just because it is more "nimble", and besides that, it is what I already have.

That said, I'd be comfortable with any one of a number of rifles/carbines/service handguns that might be available in a pinch and as might be suggested by others on this thread.
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Old November 30, 2005, 11:50 PM   #8
281 Quad Cam
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Well... Glock 26?

The NYPD uses the 19 I believe, so the area ought to be loaded with Hi-cap 9mm Glock magazines which will fit the 26. The 26 is good in the respect that it is small, light, concealable, tough, and interestingly - takes 3 or more magazine sizes. The smaller Glocks will use the mags of anything larger than it. 10, 12, 15, 17, and 33 rounders.

Or whatever you like best.
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Old December 1, 2005, 01:28 AM   #9
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EOTWAWKI handgun

If it truly is straight out of an REM song, then you need lots of effective ammo and you need to move fast.

I have reconsidered.

The hell with what NYPD or anyone else has. You can pick up the stray guns with the stray mags, if any can be found.

Not sure if anyone makes one or not, but a .22magnum autoloader. If not, then a Taurus model 941 with a 5" barrel in .22magnum. A pocket full of 200 rounds of .22mag will weigh less than a pocket full of 50 9mm rounds. In a pinch, if it must, the Taurus revolver will shoot the .22LR cartridges too, although extraction later will be an issue and accuracy would only be suitable to COM at under 25feet.

If a rifle is allowable and we assume that NYC has banned sale of all autoloader rifles, then a .357/.38 lever gun. Otherwise, the 941 Taurus.
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Old December 1, 2005, 01:39 PM   #10
Bo Hunter
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Pre-Ban?

You might want to re-check the state law on magazine capacity. I talked to the pistol clerk the other day, and was told magazine capacity is based on the date of purchase of THE GUN, not the magazines. In otherwords, if you register a handgun tomorrow you are allowed to have ONLY 10 round magazines for it no matter WHEN they were made.

Obviously, in a full civil breakdown it doesn't really matter, but until Armageddon, it might be important.

I may be wrong, she may be wrong, or there may have been a communication breakdown, but that is how I understood what she told me....
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Old December 1, 2005, 02:13 PM   #11
Chuckstar
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Thanks for the thoughts.

Even though I said EOTWAWKI, I'm not really expecting such a breakdown in police forces that I would feel comfortable toting a rifle/shotgun around. I'm thinking more NOLA-style breakdown of civil society where I may have to defend the apartment and/or walk out of the city, but there are a lot of bad dudes around. I have a feeling walking around NOLA carrying a shotgun would have been a good way to get shot by the cops.

Interesting idea about the Glock. Hadn't really thought about picking up ammo along the way. Could the same argument be made about P226? I thought that was also an approved NYPD service weapon. (Could be wrong, though.)

What about pre-ban magazines? I still see them available on-line some places (probably for guys like me where we still need pre-ban stuff). Any reason not to trust a pre-ban magazine? Age?
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Old December 1, 2005, 05:38 PM   #12
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Any reason not to trust a pre-ban magazine? Age?

Nope, no reason. Might need to change the spring, worst case scenario.

Interesting sidenote:

New, ban-expired glock mags have no manufacture date on them. Go to a gunshow in a neighboring state, stick one in your luggage and go back home! Just don't get one stamped for "LEO". Those were made between 1994 and 2004.
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Old December 2, 2005, 12:27 AM   #13
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A 4" .357 and a compact lever gun with a 16" barrel in the same caliber. Get some hot ammo and you will be set. Those little rifles can also be concealed in luggage pretty easily. If you feel like you need a higher capacity handgun, get an 8-shot revolver. Put the revolver in a Safepacker and it is easily concealed and carried, even in plain sight.
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Old December 2, 2005, 11:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
I have a feeling walking around NOLA carrying a shotgun would have been a good way to get shot by the cops.
Not from what I heard. Not when it was really out of control, anyway. I saw ample cases where citizens' patrols formed up and at least attempted (in some cases they did pretty well) to take control of their neighborhoods and businesses, and those patrols were openly armed with rifles and shotguns. I saw the same sort of thing in the Rita aftermath, too. It is, after all, a big part of the idea of the citizens' militia and as such is a big reason for the existence of the 2nd Amendment in the first place.

Quote:
A 4" .357 and a compact lever gun with a 16" barrel in the same caliber.
Not a bad combo, not a bad idea at all. In more open country, that lever carbine would rank right up there at the top of my long gun list. I only leaned towards the shotgun because it was an urban environment. Here in suburbia, it would be a toss-up between the 2.
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Old December 2, 2005, 11:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a feeling walking around NOLA carrying a shotgun would have been a good way to get shot by the cops.


Not from what I heard. Not when it was really out of control, anyway. I saw ample cases where citizens' patrols formed up and at least attempted (in some cases they did pretty well) to take control of their neighborhoods and businesses, and those patrols were openly armed with rifles and shotguns.
Until the police and military disarmed them at gun point...

It wasn't until the SAF and NRA jumped in that this stopped, but many people lost their weapons before that point.
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Old December 2, 2005, 11:28 AM   #16
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New, ban-expired glock mags have no manufacture date on them. Go to a gunshow in a neighboring state, stick one in your luggage and go back home! Just don't get one stamped for "LEO". Those were made between 1994 and 2004.
Be wary of this advice. I was at a shop in NY recently where a LEO was picking up a new Glock. It appears the pre ban Glock mags were not metal lined. When full they would "swell" and prevent them from dropping clear when the mag release was pressed. New mags have a metal inner sleeve I believe. This prevents the swelling and allows a full or partially full mag to drop free when the release is pressed. By checking to see if the inner sleave is present the NY authorities could easily determine if it is a pre or post ban magazine.

God, I hate this state. Luckily I have an interview in Northern VA on Monday! Free at last, thank God we're free at last!
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Old December 2, 2005, 01:52 PM   #17
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Until the police and military disarmed them at gun point...

It wasn't until the SAF and NRA jumped in that this stopped, but many people lost their weapons before that point.
There shoulda been mass firings and prosecutions over that -- those people were sworn to uphold the consititution. Unfortunately, it seems that the local law enforcement as well as the feds that were there became a big part of the problem. It was still the EOTWAWKI, but what happened was a pretty quick transition from anarchy to overly heavy-handed martial law which failed to properly discriminate between friends (the citizens' militias) and foes (the gangsta thugs). It got ugly, and then it got even uglier. Confiscating law-abiding peoples' guns was worse than inexcusable, it was despicable -- they were robbing the very people who they were supposed to be protecting of the most effective means for their protection.

But with that in mind, it seems to me that in a similar EOTWAWKI situation, one would be better off armed with something effective and yet CHEAP -- I mean, if the government thugs make a weapons sweep, you would be better off losing a cheap gun rather than an expensive gun. Maybe a HiPoint carbine or an SKS might be the best choice -- effective yet cheap. And then get something like a Makarov or a used revolver as a sidearm -- again, cheap but effective. And hide all the rest of your guns until order is restored.
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Old December 2, 2005, 02:09 PM   #18
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Am I the only one who doesn't get it.
I figured it out up to End of the world and WKI?
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Old December 2, 2005, 02:15 PM   #19
model 25
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And hide all the rest of your guns until order is restored.

I wish this site had a survival forum to talk about issues like this. Most people are studying what to put in their BOB (bug out bag) and what guns they will carry and don't even look at history as to what happens in major events.

In an end of the world event when society is at it's worst would you want to leave behind your best chance to survive in hopes society will be restored?

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Old December 2, 2005, 02:26 PM   #20
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Eotwawki

End Of The World As We Know It.

My EOTWAWKI guns are an M1a and a sidearm that has mags that match whoever I'm bugging out with.

An M1a is about $1500-$2000 once it has a quality scope mount and optics attached, but 2 guys with M1a's or Garands or AR's can saw thru a mob of 20-30 idiots in seconds.

I guess an SKS or KelTec SU16 could too, but who knows what's gonna break on a 30 year old communist-built gun or a plastic rifle? Mag changes on an SKS are no fun. That huge pivot point is annoying.

I want the finest equipment I can carry, afford and shoot accurately. My laws in AZ allow me to own what I've got and I've got a good bug-out plan with the people I care about. We came up with it for the Bird Flu. If that really gets bad where people are flat-out dying at a significant percentage (25% or more fatality rate) we will wait it out in the mountains, away from everybody else. It's unlikely, but it also translates well if terrorists blow up hoover dam, or use a dirty bomb in phoenix, or hit palo verde nuclear plant.
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Old December 2, 2005, 02:38 PM   #21
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An M1a is about $1500-$2000 once it has a quality scope mount and optics attached, but 2 guys with M1a's or Garands or AR's can saw thru a mob of 20-30 idiots in seconds.

Now don't take this wrong as it is only discussion. Do you remember Blawkhawk Down. Two heros went into a mob situation to save downed crew members. They ran out of ammo and died. Larger groups of troops lived, small groups are picked off. This is mob mentality.

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Old December 2, 2005, 02:42 PM   #22
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Okay, so now I've posted 3 different opinions on this thread...

For me in my current environment, the M1a and sidearm-to-match-my-group are my bug-out kit.

If I wanted one handgun to "escape from new york" with Kurt Russell, it would be a .22magnum since I could carry hundreds of rounds with no ill effect. That, and zombies require face shots and I can do that repeatedly with a .22magnum at 50 yards.
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Old December 2, 2005, 02:50 PM   #23
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Now don't take this wrong as it is only discussion. Do you remember Blawkhawk Down. Two heros went into a mob situation to save downed crew members. They ran out of ammo and died. Larger groups of troops lived, small groups are picked off. This is mob mentality.
Yeah, that is true.

Except that was a semi-organized ethnic militia. They communicated with cell phones or runners to move troops.

We're talking about opportunistic riotous mobs. If 25 guys are coming down your neighborhood arterial street with torches and shotguns, two guys with cover and 20rd mags at their feet can stop them in their tracks, no problem.
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Old December 2, 2005, 02:53 PM   #24
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New, ban-expired glock mags have no manufacture date on them. Go to a gunshow in a neighboring state, stick one in your luggage and go back home! Just don't get one stamped for "LEO". Those were made between 1994 and 2004.


Be wary of this advice. I was at a shop in NY recently where a LEO was picking up a new Glock. It appears the pre ban Glock mags were not metal lined. When full they would "swell" and prevent them from dropping clear when the mag release was pressed. New mags have a metal inner sleeve I believe. This prevents the swelling and allows a full or partially full mag to drop free when the release is pressed. By checking to see if the inner sleave is present the NY authorities could easily determine if it is a pre or post ban magazine.

Not completely true Musketeer.

First Gen Glock mags are Not Fully Metal Lined (NFML) or as some say non-drop free. Then Glock made Full Metal Lined (FML) or as some say drop free. Both can be found in Pre-Ban(9/94) years. Some NFML mags Will drop free and some FML mags won't drop free.

I agree that I would not buy new current mags and bring them into the State. Current post-post ban(9/04) mags have a slightly different shape to them and could be easily spotted by a LEO that knew what he was looking for. Question: does NY have a replacement clause in their laws? If so, you could get some old beat up crap mags and rebuild them into functioning mags.

As far as the original question, in no particular order.
Glock 19: I believe NYPD uses this...So plenty of ammo/mags around if needed.
Beretta 92: .gov uses the M9 so again plenty of ammo/mags around.
Sig 226: plenty of LEOs use Sigs.
1911: single stack mags can be purchased freely and.45 ammo is everywhere.

Stick to 9mm or .45 IMHO ammo is easy to find/store.

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Old December 2, 2005, 03:15 PM   #25
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But with that in mind, it seems to me that in a similar EOTWAWKI situation, one would be better off armed with something effective and yet CHEAP -- I mean, if the government thugs make a weapons sweep, you would be better off losing a cheap gun rather than an expensive gun. Maybe a HiPoint carbine or an SKS might be the best choice -- effective yet cheap. And then get something like a Makarov or a used revolver as a sidearm -- again, cheap but effective. And hide all the rest of your guns until order is restored.
That will work as long as they do not have a list of guns owned by citizens... They have that for all legal handguns in NY.
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