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Old January 3, 2006, 08:59 PM   #1
Jkwas
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The inherrent superiority of the revolver

Now that I've been playing around with semi-autos and revolvers for the last year or so, I have come to believe that as a super reliable, save your bacon, will always work self defense weapon, the revolver is it. I like my autos, but I have more faith in my revolver, with it's simplicity and reliability.
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Old January 3, 2006, 09:01 PM   #2
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Ok...................?
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Old January 3, 2006, 09:17 PM   #3
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In a nutshell. I agree.
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Old January 3, 2006, 10:07 PM   #4
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My signature says my feelings of autos.
I've owned several and they are fun to shoot at the range.
A very big untold story is the law enforcement injuries from Glocks.
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Old January 3, 2006, 10:43 PM   #5
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A very big untold story is the law enforcement injuries from Glocks.
What story is that?
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Old January 4, 2006, 08:07 AM   #6
Handy
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I guess we all just go on experience. Revolvers should be a little more reliable, but two of the guns I've seen at tournaments that were completely out of commision were S&W revolvers with some sort of internal binding in the hammer/trigger mech.

On the otherhand, I have some autos that have never even hiccuped.
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Old January 4, 2006, 08:47 AM   #7
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Can I agree and disagree at the same time??

I like both. Honest.

My consideration factors:

1. Yes Glocks have been in a list of accidents involving accidental discharges, and on the same note is the "untold stories" about accidental discharges from the good old revolver. Hard to believe isn't it?? No it can't be true! Revolvers are safer than semi-autos...to an extent.
What people tend to lose the concept of is the fact being that a lot of injuries are caused by negligence and outright mistakes. It happens.

2. 6 rounds versus 15 rounds + (Who wins that one?)
Yeah yeah.... I hear the "if you can't hit the target with 6 rounds you shouldn't be carrying". Hrmm.... if only those good old gun fights would be limited to 6 rounds per person....

3. Safety Safety Safety. My friend the revolver is a pleasure to handle because it is safe to unload, due to the fact being that the contact with the barrel from the rounds point of view, is broken when you open the cylinder. The semi-auto requires a little more care and attention as that last round needs some gentle assistance to leave the firearm in the proper manner. A revolver with an open cylinder on the bench screams "I'M EMPTY!". An open slide on a semi-auto demands another check just to be sure.

4. Weight: Some people like something with a bit of bulk on their hip, instead of a weight that makes you constantly think the thing has fallen out of your holster. This thought is not always a disadvantage. Firearm retension awareness is a positive habit to have.
With a whole heap of other things that you have to cart around on your duty belt, a light pistol is peace of mind.

5. Public perception: Now this is probably not an issue in the US, but in Australia and other related countries, the exposure of a firearm in a public place is a serious issue. Our laws prevent us from carrying a firearm exposed in a public place (must be retained in the holster of course!) if it is against the public interest and is going to cause fear in a public place. I know.. bunch of whimps you say... well unfortunately Australia is not accustomed to the constant view of firearms. A nice big shiny silver revolver draws attention like flies to a dead animal. Its an open invitation to an array of questions like: "is it loaded?", "Is it real?", "would you ever shoot anyone with it?". The semi-autos however, are in a different league. A flat black shape attracts attention, but you're gone before they have a chance to double take on what they thought they saw.

So... my moral to the story: You carry what you want to carry

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Old January 4, 2006, 09:50 AM   #8
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My take is that while some may feel the revolver has inherent superiority, it does so only for the more skilled shooter. As such, there are several reasons why revolvers are no long standard issue sidearms for most law enforcement agencies and militaries.

Some folks do very well with revolvers, but long DA trigger pulls are difficult for less experienced revolver shooters to effect smoothly enough to maintain accuracy at distances beyond very close and the reload process is more complicated and seems to give some a lot of trouble.

The so-called inherent superiority means nada if you can't hit your opposition and can't reload quick enough to protect yourself.

In reality, there is nothing inherently superior about a revolver or semi-auto. They are both just inanimate tools that don't do a darned thing without a person that provides the external and additional forces to make them function. Whether or not a gun design is superior depends on the person running it.

I have seen revolver shooters beat semi-auto shooters in matches, but not too many. The semis do offer some nice mechanical compensations for training shortcomings in many cases, such as SA triggers, higher capacityies, ease of reloading.

Regardless of the product, so-called superior designs often lose appeal when they can't be manipulated effectivily by the general public using said products.
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Old January 4, 2006, 10:09 AM   #9
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No smokestacks, jams, safeties, flying slides or dropped magazines.
Just make the wheel turn.
You forgot, no chasing brass, no chance of magazine spring weakening thus messing you up, and misfires won't get you in trouble.
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Old January 4, 2006, 10:30 AM   #10
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When Washinton, DC, switched to Glocks back in the late 80s/early the rate of accidental/negligent discharges SKYROCKETED.

The problem wasn't the Glocks per se, but the piteous lack of training that officers received on their new firearms.
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Old January 4, 2006, 12:02 PM   #11
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I'm not an LEO, so I probably don't practice as much, but not having to wonder if the safety is on or off, or if the round is chambered, gives me peace of mind. Hopefully the limited ammo capacity of the revolver will give me a chance to get away. I'm not going to "fight it out" if I don't have to.
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Old January 4, 2006, 12:16 PM   #12
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How does a revolver tell you whether it is loaded or not in a way an auto does not?


(Loaded chamber indicator.)
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Old January 4, 2006, 12:40 PM   #13
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Hopefully the limited ammo capacity of the revolver will give me a chance to get away. I'm not going to "fight it out" if I don't have to.
Now don't get me wrong...my favorite concealable weapon is a 5-shot sp101. I don't understand the logic of "the limited ammo capacity...will give me a chance to get away."

I agree that I'm not gonna fight it out if I don't have to either.

But... If I can carry something with real firepower (like 15x9mm or 13x.45acp) I am going to do that. The idea of "if 6 shots aint enough, then you sure don't need an auto" is just silly. What if you have 2 or 3 or 7 assailants? I worry that my 5 shots in my sp101 are not enough to handle 2 or 3 attackers. They definitely aren't enough to handle 6 gangbangers.

Whereas my XD9 with 15 rounds and a reload (and a brick wall or tree for cover) will give me a much better chance of surviving that particular encounter. Maybe if I had a Taurus Tracker 8-shot .357 with moon clip reloads I'd feel okay, but that's a lot bigger gun to conceal than my XD9.

I see limited ammo capacity as a mandate to make every shot count, rather than shooting for cover fire in a hopeful retreat. With a 15-round auto, I can afford to use 5 rounds for cover fire while moving. I can't afford that with a revolver.
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Old January 4, 2006, 01:52 PM   #14
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My current house guns are a .38 snubbie and a 17 round 9mm semi auto. If the SHTF and I awaken to the sounds of a BG walking up the stairs, I'm going for the revolver first. Why I don't need to worry about racking the slide. That is why I bought it, if someone is breaking into my house and I'm not home my wife can use it, heck when my kid are old enough they can use it. In a panic situation you just point it and pull the trigger and (if loaded) it will go bang. Now, if I have a second or two, let's say the BG kicked in a door, I would go for the semi auto. Because in that second or two I have time to lock and load and take a defensive position at the top of the stairs. With 17 rounds I can hold back or kill several BG, and I'm experienced with the semi auto (unlike the rest of the family). Problem with a revolver is that click sound it makes after you fire all your rounds, in a home defense situation with multiple BG if things are still bad and your empty, unless you have moon clip, you may not be able to reload quick enough. When your gun jams or you forget to disable the safety...you will wish you had a revolver...when you run out of bullets and need to reload..you will wish you had a semi auto.

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Old January 4, 2006, 02:15 PM   #15
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I just thought i'd chime in here with a different perspective. I am a LEO, and I love my Glock for a duty weapon. I've been in Law Enforcement for over 7 years and have only been privy to 2 "negligent" discharges, not accidental mind you. Both were with MP5's, one in training, one in an actual raid. Training in Law Enforcement is the key and its sometimes mindblowing as to how little training officers receive. I personally train on my own and am a student of guns and gun handling. I have had malfunctions with Semiautos and here just recently, had a MAJOR malfunction with a brand new S&W revlover, I have a thread on here somewhere about the malfunction. Anything mechanical can fail. The mechanical safety to me is a moot point in Law Enforcement circles. For home defense I guess a safety would be ok if you leave the gun laying around where someone could pick it up....but that's bad! If I need my duty weapon to fire, it fires, if I don't need it to, my finger stays off the trigger. That's really the only way to make a gun fire anyway. Accidental or negligent discharges are caused by one thing....they had their stinking finger on the trigger when they did not have any reason to shoot what they had the gun pointed at. That all goes back to training or the lack of it. I carried a S&W 5906 for several years and the safety was always OFF, that's how I trained. The safety was between my ears! If TSHTF for you, you will fight like you train, all your senses concentrate totally on your threat, and your training takes over.
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Old January 4, 2006, 02:29 PM   #16
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The idea of "if 6 shots aint enough, then you sure don't need an auto" is just silly. What if you have 2 or 3 or 7 assailants? I worry that my 5 shots in my sp101 are not enough to handle 2 or 3 attackers. They definitely aren't enough to handle 6 gangbangers.
Here's a challenge for you, and anyone else who's convinced that five or six rounds are not an adequate capacity.

Find me a verified citation from a reputable source that lists an example of a private citizen who was killed during a shootout because his or her CCW ran dry.

With the number of CCW holders nationwide standing at close to ten million, and the number of defensive gun uses per year in the hundreds of thousands of incidents, that kind of documentation shouldn't be too hard to find if it exists.

If and when you do find such a documented case (and we're talking average Joe here, not LEO, off-duty LEO or high risk professionals such as Wells Fargo driver or jewelry store owner), then I will re-evaluate my carry choice of a six-shot .38 Special revolver.

In the meantime, if I get into the rare scenario where I am attacked by more than six people, I'll just have to shoot the first five or six and hope that the rest will have lost their stomachs for a fight by then. In all seriousness...if you get attacked by more than two or three armed assailants with any sort of skill, you are just as dead with a six-shooter as you would be with a fifteen-shot pistol...you'll just die with more rounds left over.

My boogeyman is not the pack of cranked up Hell's Angels (which is an extremely rare and unlikely scenario), but rather a feed jam or limp-wrist at an inopportune time (which happens quite often, even at the range), or a safety which has been left on under stress (which has also happened more than once in documented defensive shootings.) Hence, I sacrifice capacity for reliability and simplicity by carrying a revolver.
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Old January 4, 2006, 02:48 PM   #17
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What if you have 2 or 3 or 7 assailants? I worry that my 5 shots in my sp101 are not enough to handle 2 or 3 attackers. They definitely aren't enough to handle 6 gangbangers.
Well I don't know what kind of an action hero you are, but I'm pretty sure that most of us can't shoot more than a couple of determined attackers rushing us a 7 yards anyway; and if we're far enough away to pull it off then we'll have some explaining to do to a judge. If these goblins are bad enough to brave gunfire then my goose is probably cooked regardless of how many rounds my gun holds. The most likely scenario is that the rest of my assailants will lose their desire to fight once they see their first comrade go down and hear the consederable muzzle blast of a 125grn .357 Magnum.
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Old January 4, 2006, 02:51 PM   #18
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It's all in your training. Revolvers require less fiddling with, and there is a lot to be said for that. However, my first pistol was an issue Government model about 35 years ago, and in the dozen I have owned, I had exactly one which needed some work out of the box. Hey, it happens-even to wheelgun owners.

I now have 5 Colt autos, all series 80's, and none of them give me problems. All of them have at least 2000 rounds through them and the oldest has over 150,000 with no major parts replacement. I also have a Ruger GP-100 which is a joy for me to shoot and would carry either.
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Old January 4, 2006, 03:10 PM   #19
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Well I don't know what kind of an action hero you are, but I'm pretty sure that most of us can't shoot more than a couple of determined attackers rushing us a 7 yards anyway; and if we're far enough away to pull it off then we'll have some explaining to do to a judge.
I'm super ninjaman!

All kidding aside, I can see getting surprised by 4+ BG's. If they premeditate and block you off at either end of a block and advance as a group from either end with weapons ready, are you going to wait for the 7 yard distance? Or will you shout one warning and then open fire at the closest reliable range?

Also, just because they close with you doesn't mean you are immediately dead. I have studied martial arts for 14 years, and I think I will last for quite a while in a close-up fight. Even if they have knives, they have to stick me good enough that I start losing blood pressure and don't function.

If they are close, I will alternate between using my training w/ ninja-fu and putting a shot in someone's chest here and there.

I'd just rather have 15 rounds and ninja-fu rather than 5 rounds and ninja-fu.

Quote:
Here's a challenge for you, and anyone else who's convinced that five or six rounds are not an adequate capacity.

Find me a verified citation from a reputable source that lists an example of a private citizen who was killed during a shootout because his or her CCW ran dry.
I'll look, but not sure where to look. Media doesn't really like CCW holders and phrase their stories in a way that make this type of search hard.
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Old January 4, 2006, 03:31 PM   #20
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I tried using a revolver in competion. I didn't do so well. I did pretty good with a 1911.

I think for multiple targets, a 1911 beats everything hands down! Try one, you'll like it.

A S&W .44 special is my night stand pistol though. Half alseep, tired, give me a revolver.

They both have there place.
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Old January 4, 2006, 04:05 PM   #21
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From MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE revolvers have proven to be much more reliable hands down. To me semi-autos are only more superior in capacity, and maybe their ability to tame recoil with less weight than a wheel gun.

As far as all these "scenarios" of what could happen...yes you should be prepared for anything. But lets calm down with all the crazy attack situations, chances are just displaying the gun will end the problem. And no I'm not saying pull it out as a deterrent when the situtation doesn't call for deadly force. But if you're justified using the deadly force, like someone robbing you, or threatening you with a weapon, etc then once they see you have a gun they will most likely flee.

What are the stats again? Something like 90%+ shootings take place within 10 feet and only 2-3 shots are fired, I know I'm close with the figures. Really if 5 or 6 shots aren't enough, then probably 15 aren't enough either. Too many movies.

But if you feel confident with a semi-auto then carry it. Rule 1 is have a firearm, and 2 is make sure it works.
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Old January 4, 2006, 04:10 PM   #22
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I own only revo's for handguns and prefer them. But gun's are tools and are only as good the user. Doesnt matter if you own a ferrari if you cant drive a stick shift your outta luck. Use what you like and train well with it. If I'm at home and multiple intruder's rush in. I'm gonna grab my revo and use it to fight my way to my new mossberg 590-a1 military shotgun that I will be getting friday. they found one yeah me.
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Old January 5, 2006, 10:45 AM   #23
Jack Malloy
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While either can have a problem revolvers are more reliable for one simple reason.
Look at how they operate.
Cylinder rotates, bolt locks into place, hammer fires. Repeat.

Now look at the bottomfeeder and count the actions
Firing pin falls and gun fires.
Gun unlocks as slide moves rearward.
Shell is extracted.
Shell is ejected.
New round is chambered as slide moves forward.
Gun locks into battery.
Repeat.

Now, compare that.
Rotate, lock up and fire.
Or
Fire, unlock, extract, eject, reload, lock up, fire.

Now, you do the math and you will figure out why the wheelgun is the real un and the bottom feeder is for the loss leader crowd.

Do we even have to go into things like stopping power and accuracy too?

If you have been followin' the stats on real world gunfights they have not changed much in something like thirty years, IE they happen at ten feet or less and are over after about three rounds are fired.
So, unless you have a J frame you can get into two gunfights a week before reloading.
Thats reality.

I like 1911s myself and I am sure they are great for shooting matches.
I carry a gun to shoot badguys in the event I get attacked not pepper plates on steel poles. The two things are ENTIRELY different.
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Old January 5, 2006, 11:15 AM   #24
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MK

Since most armed encounters don't even require the gun to be shot(J.LOTT), you can save money by carrying a realistic looking rubber pistol

There are plenty of docmented cased of a single bad guy taking 6 or more rounds and still being able to fight.

So the idea that "one round for each bad guy" is going to git-r-done seems optimistic at best

For many people the idea that each round will score a good solid hit is optimistic

Like all these discussions...what gun, what caliber, how many guns is a personal choice (generally related to comfort )

Just please make it an informed one

And notice....most anyone that teaches fighting with the handgun (rather than just shooting) advocates a semi for your primary weapon
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Old January 5, 2006, 11:18 AM   #25
DAVID NANCARROW
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Yes indeed, Jack-let us look at the operation of a revolver vs an autoloader. Take your side plate off and tell me one more time how simple it is! Tell me how many parts it takes to rotate a round in front of the hammer and how many parts are involved in making it go boom? How many parts must be hand fitted in order to make this happen? Isn't technology wonderful? I like it!

There are too many folks who have saved their bacon with an autoloader to buy into your stand. Try Alvin York and quite a few others. If autoloaders were so ginchy, the military and police forces of almost every nation would have given up on them decades ago.

As to powerful loads, there are self shuckers out there which can handle the abuse just as well as any wheelgun.
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