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Old February 11, 2006, 07:57 PM   #1
colt
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AK-47 questions

as some of you know i have been looking for a cheap gun ($400 and under) that takes cheap ammo with reasonable accuracy (4moa). i think that the ak might do what i ask, except for accuracy. if you prove to me that a cheapo ak will produce acceptable groups (3-4moa) you just might add another ak guy to the list. also what are the websites to all the big ak makers like arsenal, wasr and any others you can think of? what are some other things i should know or look at before buying? i will be going to alot of gunshows pretty soon. accuracy and price are the most important so keep that in mind when suggesting, and i want the most accurate i can find, and if you can show me visual proof or just tell me what your ak usually does it will help alot. thanks in advance
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Old February 11, 2006, 08:09 PM   #2
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i almost forgot, would someone please price all of them?
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Old February 11, 2006, 08:30 PM   #3
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I don't think that 4 MOA is a problem for most AKs. Arsenal will cost more than $400 new, though it is one of the more accurate AKs. AKs have a bad rep for being more inaccurate than they really are. They have very poor iron sights and you will be able to shoot much better if you get a cheep optic like a red dot. Also they are generally used by very poorly trained armies and militants who are very poor shots. It's more of the people using them being inaccurate than the guns themselves. A military M-16 A2 generally shoots right over 2 MOA and I know that Arsenal and Krebs AKs can shoot just under 3 MOA with the right ammo. I just figured I'd mention that to shed some light on accuracy since you seemed concerned with it.
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Old February 11, 2006, 08:59 PM   #4
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If your up to it, most AK's will fit your accuracy requirements. The AK isnt a target rifle, but it works very well for its intended purpose. Dot sight one, and it will easily keep up with an AR in all but a bullseye target match. A Krebs AK will even give it a run for its money there with good ammo.
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Old February 11, 2006, 09:09 PM   #5
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Get a gun Digest or Guns and Ammo annual that will give you an idea about whats out there the prices and give you the companie's websites.
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Old February 11, 2006, 09:14 PM   #6
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Shotgun News will give you as many choices of Ak's as you want. Websites, numbers, etc.
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Old February 11, 2006, 10:19 PM   #7
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oh yeah! shotgun news, boy do i feel stupid thanks for the input guys, but if anybody has a terget they can show me i would be happy. as for the ar-15 shooting 2moa, they'l do way better than that. I can shoot a .80 group with my dads stock colt ar-15 and a scope.
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Old February 11, 2006, 10:58 PM   #8
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Romanian SAR1 I bought a few years ago looks rough but functions and shoots well. Accurate enough to hit a 1 gallon milk jug consistently at 100 yds.
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Old February 11, 2006, 11:54 PM   #9
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That 2 MOA is an average for military M-16 A2 with military ammo. Also keep in mind I believe that stat is average group size shot. You have regular grunts behind the trigger for that I believe. Besides there are a lot of civilian AR’s that will outperform military rifles especially accurized ones, H-BARs, and target models.

In regards to M855 ball ammo "Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA"
from: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm
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Old February 12, 2006, 12:17 AM   #10
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Here you go Colt. I managed to dig up the target mine came with. I don't know if they shot it from a vice or what but keep in mind it has a better trigger and better sights on it now than it did when it came to me. The included literature I believe stated it was a 100 yard group and my results from the bench seem to indicate that it is representative of the rifle's accuracy at that range--it could do better now with the el cheapo Century FCG gone and the Mojo rear sight in it but to get the best out of an AK, I really think you have to get a red dot set up on it.

Also keep in mind this target was buried in my closet so that last hole was tore a little bit. Going to the outside of it, as can be seen on the calipers, you still get a 4.2 MOA group. Sorry I can't tell you what ammo they used. And like I said, I don't shoot mine on paper much. Just sighted it in and shoot water jugs and stuff. Hope this helps.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AK with target.JPG (91.2 KB, 250 views)
File Type: jpg AK with calipers.JPG (91.2 KB, 189 views)
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Old February 12, 2006, 12:21 AM   #11
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MT - what kind of AK is that ? Looks nicer than an SARI. Is it a VEPR?
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Old February 12, 2006, 12:45 AM   #12
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No that is the WASR I paid $320 for. I've gradually dumped money into it replacing things. By the time I get finished, some will say I could have just bought an AR, but I will just tell them that then I would be stuck with an AR

Those are the TDI synthetic grips. I paid like $90 for the set out of Tantal but you can get just the lower for like $45 if you shop around. They were much heavier and more rugged than I expected them to be. I haven't really heated up the rifle since I put them on, but what shooting I have done seems to indicate that they are not only more comfortable for me, but they disipate heat much better than the wood grips it came with. The wood grips had a metal pin through them, I suppose to keep it from warping and splitting, but boy that sucker got hot with a couple mags through it. You'd touch that pin and feel like your thumb was getting branded. I said the stock handguards had to go, but didn't want to take the time to save the $200 for the metal quad rail systems. I only want to add a vertical foregrip (should get here Monday according to UPS) so I don't need it to maintain accuracy with a laser or anything--but something tells me it would if I asked it to.

I also paid $160 to put an ACE folding six-position M4-style stock on it that makes it really comfortable to shoot. I am 6'5" and had trouble with the original short stock. I kept getting bumped in the cheek with the back of the receiver when I shot. It wasn't bad, just enough to be distracting--like someone just thumping your face--it was just bad enough that you'd begin anticipating it after a few shots. With the M4 style stock on there, I could pull it out till it is even too long for me, then collapse it to the original length for someone short. And it is a whole lot more durable and solid than the TAPCO unit so I don't mind spending 3x as much. Plus it still folds for transport. It's a neat system.

Add the Buffer Tech recoil buffer (not necessary, but nice), M249 style grip, G2 FCG, Mojo ghost ring sight, and the SOG VFG still in the mail and I have a total of about $750 (with original cost of the rifle factored in) into the rifle, but it is a whole lot nicer than when I got it. The rifle is more comfortable and functional, and looks better to my eyes as well. It's never had a problem with reliability so all I am doing is trying to improve ergonomics and use-ability. I want to put a PK-AS-V or Gen II Kobra on it with my income tax return and will probably spend another $100 threading the barrel and putting a flash surpressor on it, and then it will be done.

Some might ask why I didn't just save up for an Arsenal. Several reasons:

1. My brother and I bought these "just in case" about a month before the AWB expired. We barely found the money for these rifles and wouldn't have been able to scronge up twice as much for a Bulgy or VEPR.

2. Most of these mods I would have done on any AK--I don't like the stock sights or spatula style pistol grip that are standard on most Kalashnikovs and I would still have to replace the handguards on most of them to put a VFG on it.

3. In hindsight, I am glad I went this route anyways. It has been a neat learning system that I might not have had with another rifle. I've replaced FCGs, front and rear sights, installed recoil buffers from two different manufactures and discovered the Buffer Tech is worlds above the Blackjack in the process, installed a new pistol grip, new stocks, and new handguards, and by the time I am done will know how to use and adjust the side mount and will have threaded two different barrels and installed flash surpressors. I've learned that the set screw thread adaptors are a good way to watch $30 worth of Krink brake fly into orbit, and that the TAPCO Galil style folding stock can make that SPOING sound you thought only happened in cartoons. I may not have done a lot of this with an Arsenal or VEPR and would be without that knowledge because of it. I've learned a lot about the Kalashnikov in the process of upgrading this WASR and that combined with my experience in the meantime has led me to have a great deal of confidence in the platform and my ability to use it.
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Old February 12, 2006, 12:48 AM   #13
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MT:

Thanks for the info.
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Old February 12, 2006, 01:19 AM   #14
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My NHM90 and 91 will group OK. My 91 will do 3" groups at 100 yards with open sights, but I don't do it that often and it usually does it with reloads using .311 bullets. My 90 will be right behind also with iron sights. I haven't played around in putting a side rail mount on it, but it will do the intended purpose I bought them for. I like to use my NHM91 for hunting and my experience with that was to keep my shots below 150 yards. The sights on the AKs don't help in producing small groups. I do have ARs and they are more accurate than my AKs. josh
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Old February 12, 2006, 06:41 PM   #15
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joshua:

What .311 bullets do you use for handloads and where do you get them?
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Old February 13, 2006, 02:48 AM   #16
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I'd look at a vepr.Its imported by robinson arms. the most accurate ak from what I have heard. I own a arsenal sam-7 and I can hit about anything I care to within reason. here is a link for robinson. http://www.robarm.com/
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Old February 13, 2006, 04:03 AM   #17
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SAR-1 story here-

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=170419
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Old February 13, 2006, 07:37 AM   #18
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You can use Hornady spire point in .310 or get some IMI AK bullets. I think I purchased mine from Wideners by the bulk. I think Sierra also has the 303 bullets that will mic to .311 but I haven't tried them. The most important part of this post is you need to slug your barrel. I bought my MAK/NHM Chinese made AKs in the 80s and they slugged to the bore of .311. The variation is present so if you have an AK type of rifle with a .308 bore made to US specs and you use .311 bullets it will definitely raise pressure. josh
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Old February 13, 2006, 05:48 PM   #19
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Get a Norinco SKS, Believe me you wont be disappointed. I have one and love it. Never had one problem with it.
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Old February 13, 2006, 11:51 PM   #20
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thanks guys, its been very helpful. i have one last question though, does anybody make better iron sights for ak's? my understending is that the stock sights are pretty bad.
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Old February 14, 2006, 01:10 AM   #21
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The Mojos will add a ghost ring style apature sight but are still limited by the short sight radius. Krebs puts an apature style sight back on the receiver cover and I have heard of people mounting CETME sights in similar fasion on their AKs, but mixed reports on how accurate they are or how well they retain zero. I think your best bet is to get the Mojos for back up and mount a good Russian red dot or reflex style sight for primary use. I have heard a lot of good things about both the Kobra and PK-AS. They are apparently rugged and reliable at half the cost of similar quality Western units. Of course if you want to spring for an EOTech or Aimpoint, there's always the Ultimak.

O the Mojos are pretty popular. I got mine from Midway for about $35.
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Old February 14, 2006, 02:13 AM   #22
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Who makes the originak AK-47?
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Old February 14, 2006, 03:36 AM   #23
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The original AK-47 was designed by a Russian tank engineer who was tired of seeing his countrymen die and decided to design a better rifle. He was told to design it around the Russian M43 cartridge, known as the 7.62x39. The rifle he created was adopted by the Soviet army in 1947. His name was Kalashnikov. His name is the "K" in AK-47, which roughly translated means "Automatic Kalashnikov Model 1947."
The rifle has undergone several manufacturing changes and in 1974 got another cartridge, the 5.45x39. During the Cold War, the Soviets practically gave the rifle away and it is now believed to be the most prolific in history. Tens of millions were manufactured by the USSR as well as countries like China, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, and Egypt.

It isn't technically correct to call the civilianized versions AKs since they lack the "happy switch" and thus are not capable of automatic fire--eliminating the "A," it is probably more correct to call them Kalashnikovs or AK clones. When people refer to them as AKs here, it is commonly believed that readers known the differences between the semi-auto clones and the full-auto counterparts.
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Old February 14, 2006, 03:59 AM   #24
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The designer's name is Mikail Kalishnikov. If you want the best AKs around go and spend money on a Valmet or Galil. When you want to have a battle rifle to count on CQB range up to 200 yards the AK will suffice. It is reliable, it will feed round and shoot them under adverse conditions being snow, sand, mud or dirt. When I say adverse I mean reasonable amount, you can't throw an AK in deep mud pick it up and expect it to fire all 30 round reliably. You'll blow it up if you have mud blocking the barrel. Aftel all that said, I still prefer the AR-15 over the AK. josh
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Old February 14, 2006, 04:12 AM   #25
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Well, yeah the barrel has to be pretty clear. But my Rommie isn't technically considered to be a top rung example of an AK but I have thrown a handful of sand in the reciever, blasted 30 rounds downrange, then cleaned it by throwing it in the river. I let the barrel drain and only eventually succeeded in causing the rifle to malfunction when the magazine filled with river muck. Yes I am not a total barbarian--I did take my rifle home and thoroughly clean it and it now sits lightly lubricated in the warmth and comfort of my house instead of buried in a rice patty where it belongs. But it can never say I don't love it and considers itself quite spoiled...
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