April 12, 2006, 05:18 PM | #1 |
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Suppressive Fire
Is suppressive fire ever a viable option for a civilian self defense situation, and if so, when? Is the idea of one shot, one kill outdated and overrated?
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April 12, 2006, 06:17 PM | #2 |
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You are talking about two completely different concepts, neither of which should ever apply to a self-defense situation.
Suppressive Fire has been discussed extensively. Here's one thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=195168 One shot, one kill isn't a term that should be applied to self-defense situations, either. It's a phrase that has been thrown around the sniper community for YEARS before it gained popularity with the rest of the world. The entire concept of "one shot, one kill" doesn't even apply to self-defense, CCW, or PISTOLS even in the most extreme cases. It's applicable to the shooters that have the training and skill to take a single well aimed shot from considerable distances and kill someone.
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April 12, 2006, 10:26 PM | #3 | |
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April 12, 2006, 11:33 PM | #4 |
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I have to agree in that 99.9999999% of cases suppressive fire is just the wrong idea for a civilian and even for pretty much any civilian or even LEO work. Maybe if you somehow got caught up in a "North Hollywood Shootout" scenario but even then I would question it. Of course we can come up with scenarios worthy of "24" all day but they get ridiculous quickly and are not the purpose of this board.
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April 12, 2006, 11:46 PM | #5 | |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the idea of civilian self defense was to shoot to stop, or shoot and move (retreat/flee). |
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April 12, 2006, 11:53 PM | #6 | |
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Remember that it involves a massive and more or less uncontrolled flow of lead. It's designed to keep the enemy's head down while sharpshooters, leapfrog advance, or a flanking maneuver do the real work. In a military situation, collateral damage is acceptable. It isn't in law enforcement, and even less for non-LE, and it's never to be used unless you have multiple allies engaging hostiles with you.
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April 13, 2006, 12:05 AM | #7 |
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Shooting to stop is not just a civilian response; it is also the response of law enforcement. You only get away with "shoot to kill" in the civilized land of England.
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April 13, 2006, 02:03 AM | #8 | |
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I certainly can envision scenarios where one is surprised and has to shoot a couple of quick shots to break contact and make an escape. You might not have time to make a perfectly aimed shot, and, like Little Bill Daggett (Gene Hackmen) said in 'Unforgiven', getting shot at 'plum rattles some folks'. It might give you the time you need. And, yes, you are responsible for where those slugs end up. |
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April 13, 2006, 10:18 AM | #9 |
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Unless you carry far more ammunition than most people do, ask yourself how many rounds can you afford to use up in supressive fire.
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April 13, 2006, 06:35 PM | #10 |
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I would imagine it would depend on what you consider to be suppressive fire. If you consider it to consist of unloading your weapon as fast as you can and saturating the area with bullets, than I'd say that it has no application in legitimate self-defense.
However it is possible that you could be in situation where causing the bad guy to get his head down could be desirable, such as a situation with a crazed gunman where you might be able to buy time for loved ones or bystanders to get to cover. In such a case, though, I think that the suppressive effect is best achieved through aimed, controlled fire. You are accountable for every shot you fire, so you might as well do your best to put every one into the bad guy. |
April 13, 2006, 07:21 PM | #11 | |
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April 13, 2006, 07:46 PM | #12 |
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I'll explain this one more time:
By definition, suppressive fire is any fires directed at an enemy in order to prevent him from leveraging effective fires against a maneuver element. This was one of the most common points of contention between myself and many inexperienced senior officers throughout my career in the Marine Corps. Often people believe that you must send rounds down range in a steady stream in order to prevent someone from sticking their head up or out. However, even in a military situation this simply encourages poor fire discipline and general lack of accountability for where one's rounds are going. I've heard all of the "collateral damage" arguments, so before anyone says that almost any amount of collateral damage is worth the life of one of our Marines (or soldiers) let me tell you that there's a difference between the real philosophy of suppressive fire and what many other people think suppressive fire is. I taught for years that in order for suppressive fire to be effective it has to do two things:
If you cannot see your target, you do not shoot. One does NOT simply hold their weapon over the top of a barrier, point it int he general direction of the enemy, and send rounds at him hoping to convince him that he shouldn't shoot at you. There are two logical problems with this: first you can't see what you're shooting, and secondly you can't see what he's doing. If you can't see him, you can't really expect to supress his ability to leverage effective fire against either you or your "maneuver" element (probably your wife, kids, etc.). If you do not have a target, you do not shoot. If you are simply impacting rounds around the general area where you think BG is hiding, what are you really accomplishing? Are you preventing him from peeking? Are you preventing him from shooting at you? Are you preventing him from doing anything except standing up and announcing his whereabouts? Possibly - but it is far more likely you are simply wasting rounds that you might need later. I have yet to see a gunfight that comes complete with an "end-of-the-round timer" that allows you to go back to your corner and re-up. For "suppressive fire" is not aphorism for "cyclic rate of fire". True, it must be sustained, but isn't 6 rounds per minute "sustained"? If you have time to aim your shots and dump a mag or two at BG, don't you also have time to simply place well-aimed shots at opportune moments (like when you see his little head pop up) rather than just "spray and pray"??? Wouldn't one well-aimed shot whenever BG showed his head be considered "sustained"? If the intent is to truly keep BG from shooting at you, shouldn't that be done in the most effective manner? To do otherwise is simply irresponsible.
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April 13, 2006, 10:48 PM | #13 | |
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In college in the 60's, I pledged Pershing Rifles, and we went on maneuvers down in Wayne Natl Forest. One of the exercises was a leapfrogging frontal assault on a bunker. I was the squad leader on this one, and me being the independent cuss that I am, decided to have the fire teams fake the assault with little real advance while I took one guy with me to flank the bunker, come in from behind, and lob a couple of smoke grenades in. I didn't tell the Lt., so he couldn't tell me that they had planted artillery simulators on the right flank, and I got knocked on my toush and said "what?" a whole lot over the next few days . And they wondered why I decided to go Navy after that .
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April 13, 2006, 11:34 PM | #14 | ||
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You may not agree but there are times when "spray & pray" is appropriate, maybe not for a grunt but certainly for the door gunner of a Huey or the gunner on a river patrol boat and many other instances also. But I don't profess to be an expert or student of infantry maneuvers but I know what we did 40 years ago and I'm alive today because of it. |
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April 13, 2006, 11:39 PM | #15 |
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You're right - but you have to admit that running a 60 from the skid of a Huey gunship isn't exactly "accurate" fire
Get's the job done, though. Stay safe, watch your 6!
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April 13, 2006, 11:41 PM | #16 |
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Ah, for the good old days!
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April 15, 2006, 11:02 AM | #17 |
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Playing a team match in paintball or airsoft... Yes, suppresive fire is effective and usefull.
In the real civilian world? No, it's unsafe and foolish.
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April 15, 2006, 12:15 PM | #19 |
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If you know the proper principles (as have been previously defined), then suppressive fire is a good tool for your toolbox. The need for that tool is dependent on the situation.
I don't presume to have the arrogance in saying that it has no place in civilian applications. |
April 16, 2006, 11:44 PM | #20 | |
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But let me add that I hope that the shotgun "behind the door" or wherever is now loaded...and that there's a loaded .308-or-better rifle keeping it company! |
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April 16, 2006, 11:50 PM | #21 |
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My Apologies
I posted the thread to be thought provoking. My wording could stand to be a little less polemic and more precise. Thank you everyone for your good responses.
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April 17, 2006, 07:59 AM | #22 |
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Try as I might, I can't think of a single incident where shooting somebody in the head would not be preferale to laying down a volley of fire to make him keep his head down.
All those extra rounds downrange are just a potential civil liability lawsuit waiting to bankrupt you too. :barf: |
April 17, 2006, 08:31 AM | #23 | |
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Originally Posted by Neophyte: [QUOTE][/But let me add that I hope that the shotgun "behind the door" or wherever is now loaded...QUOTE]
Although Gina did a pretty darn good job in writing the story, she did "skew" a few things. For example, the shotgun WAS loaded, it just didn't have a round in the chamber. So when she says I loaded it, I actually shucked a round into the chamber... There are definitely some things I do differently now. First, I don't keep the shotgun behind the door. That seems like a good spot, but you have to shut the door to get to it, and in our case, a shut door had to be opened. Frankly, that was the hardest thing I have ever had to do! Second, I dry fire the shotgun now so the little button under by the trigger does not have to be depressed to shuck it. The only reason I shucked it for my wife in the first place was because I questioned in my mind whether or not she'd know to push that button... Thank you for your kind comments! Originally Posted by Jack Malloy: Quote:
Also, my closest neighbor is over a mile away, and all of my rounds were stopped by the wall I shot into. If they had of gone through the wall, I might of got the perp. That was my intent anyway! Besides that, legal crap is the LEAST of things on your mind when your being attacked! The name of the game is SURVIVAL!
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April 17, 2006, 09:00 AM | #24 |
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Movement and manuever are two diffrent things. Movement is traveling towards the enemy. Manuever is used to gain an advantage over the enemy when contact is made. Tactical movement is done before you contact the enemy. Once the enemy contact is made you are in manuever mode.
What CPT Charlie is reffering to is called alternating bounding overwatch. the elements take turns moving forward towards the objective. One element moves while the other provides what is called an overwatch. Upon command they can provide suppressing fire to support the moving element. The bounding unit must follow two rules. 1. never move into the overwatch element's line of fire 2. dont move out of range of the overwatch element's range of fire. METT-T is used to decide on the best way to accomplish the manuever. Mission- on a mission to take ground or on a mission to probe enemy lines Enemy- enemy's capabilities, equipment, probable courses of action Terrain and Weather - use the terrain (cover and concealment) and weather to seek an advantage over the enemy Troops Available- number and capabilities of friendly troops Time or Timing - rapid advancement towards the enemy helps to keep him at a tactical disatvantage.
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April 17, 2006, 09:35 AM | #25 | |||
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While I agreed with everyone else that suppressive fire had no place in civilian self defense, Hal8000 has shown us that under certain circumstances suppressive fire can be a useful defensive tool. Quote:
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