Sorry but this post hit a sore spot with me

uncut · April 18, 2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

wishbone
Senior Member

Yes I have a LEMON P99-9mm-German Walther..I love these threads. It gives me a chance to vent my anger at something not someone..My P99 shoots pretty straight, when it shoots, but it's not in the same class as my HK Tactical.In my humble opinion, based on my experience with the Walther,The Walther should not be classified as a pistol for any purpose other than PLINKING .It malfunctions (fails to fire,fails to release the firing pin with the trigger in the rear most position) etc etc etc..The N.J. STATE POLICE sent them back, and cancelled their order because they did not work !! Too many failures to fire!! I keep mine just so I can complain when the occasion arises..Try the other brands, then decide..To me, them that say the P99 German or otherwise,are great ,are used to using more inferior products than the P.O.CRA* I have..

I am sorry in advance to bring this up again.... but the instance of the NJSP S&W99 is misleading information .......and I could not stand the bashing of the P99

Every company produces lemmons.... this should not happen with a firearm since we depend our lifes on it... but it does with Walther just as with the more expensive H&K's... and I will back it up with 2 pics.....
in your case (to wishbone) instead of complaining, you might want to send the P99 to S&W for repair... they even send you shipping labels if it would still be under warranty.... sorry to hear your's not working right.... I have 3 and all work 100% so far
As to the NJ state apolice S&W99 (those were not even Walther P99's) I will give you some answeres that are not as far fetched as your accusations .....

from google cache.... sorry no link:

The SW99 model requested by NJSP was the regular TDA (DA/SA) model, but without a decocker. The slides had to be specially machined to lack the decocker button cutout. S&W tried to convince the NJSP that this wasn't necessarily the best of ideas ... (comment snipped) ... but in the end they relented and provided the customer what they demanded.
Naturally, if you're familiar with the TDA 99 design, you'll wonder how you'd decock the pistol when you lock the slide back, insert a magazine, and then load/chamber the pistol by releasing the slide. How indeed? The trigger is now "cocked", but with the trigger in the "forward" position. What Walther basically calls their "Anti-Stress" mode in the new catalog.
Anyway, the only way to "decock" the TDA pistol without a decocking button is to pull the trigger ... which is only something you can safely do with an EMPTY pistol.

Quote from John Farnam:

Not surprisingly, the SW99NJ combines all the worst features into one package! It cannot be decocked, but the trigger can be staged. And, once staged, the trigger cannot be returned to its forward position (without reciprocating the slide). This gun is going to generate, for years to come, multitudinous ADs within the NJSP. On the side of the slide is etched, "Caution-decock feature removed" The trigger is way too light for a duty gun, and, when officers try to stage the trigger (which they will, despite efforts to stop it) they will AD with great regularity

And here 2 pics of H&K lemmons......

Bullrock · April 18, 2006, 04:46 PM

Wow!

Anthony2 · April 18, 2006, 04:50 PM

What happened?
Did you run them over or something?

shield20 · April 18, 2006, 05:06 PM

My German Walther P99 QA has over 900 PERFECT rounds through it. NO problems at all but 1 extra mag needed replacing. Hardly an inferior pistol. One of the best triggers out there too. (after 1911s)

Also - my P2000 has over 800 PERFECT rounds, so I like 'em both.

famine · April 18, 2006, 05:12 PM

Another reason not to trust polimer frames
Famine

18DAI · April 18, 2006, 05:32 PM

UNCUT - Your post of the two "HK Lemons" is a bit misleading. Both of those HK's show damage from overcharged cartridges. In an overcharged round ,the hot expanding gas blows back and down ,typically (as your pics show) blowing out pieces of the frame where it says Made in Germany; and splitting the frame in two. You can find a few photos like yours (if not THE photos) at HKpro. You will also notice the plate blown out of the bottom of the mag ,again typical of a Kaboom. Please explain to me how an HK, surviving pretty well IMHO, a catastrophic Kaboom makes them a lemon? Regards 18DAI.

Hal8000 · April 18, 2006, 05:32 PM

The Walther P99 is a P.O.S.! That's why I have four of them and am trying to figure out how to get my 5th... I agree with you uncut 100%...

I've had more problems with Rugers than any other brand I've owned, probably because I've owned more Rugers than any other brand. Thing is, Ruger has fixed every single one without hesitation or delay. I still like, own and will buy more Rugers. They are great guns but like you said, "Every company produces lemmons". So what, give them a chance to rectify the problem first, then complain if they don't fix the problem...

Tell you what though, I'll bet most people know he was just ranting and flat blew him off as a sore consumer that would rather cost the company some sales than to see if they would fix it for him... Ignore him! I'm going to... In fact, I'll not add any more to this thread either for the simple sales philosophy I learned "many moons ago"... Boost your product, don't cut the competitions. (the competition looks at it as exposure)

HorseSoldier · April 18, 2006, 05:33 PM

Never had a single failure to fire, failure to extract, failure to go into battery or any other malfunction with my P-99AS 9mm with a couple thousand rounds through it.

fairview mick · April 18, 2006, 06:10 PM

Great informative post.
Mickey

18DAI · April 18, 2006, 06:26 PM

Thanks Mick . While I agree somewhat with UNCUT's premise ,I think it is inadvisable to illustrate that premise ,with a false one. YMMV Regards 18DAI.

joecad · April 18, 2006, 07:45 PM

did h&k have any comments on these weapons.....i'ld replace them just to try to make the best of a bad situation....that kind of pr can kill a company.....problems of a much smaller nature killed llama....just as they were getting it together.

uncut · April 18, 2006, 08:52 PM

18DAI
you are right about those pics being on HKpro and look who posted them there

http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/...b=5&o=&fpart=1

Neither on of those are mine.... and yes you might be right about them being shot too "hot"
but if I remeber correctly....H&K claims that their USP's are designed to handle hot loads

I didn't post those pics to mislead or say H&K is a bad product.... just to show that with every gun there is things that can go wrong....
I am sorry if I might have fallen in the same trap about misleading..... but since neither of any of those guns are mine..... I don't know how they ended up this way...... and all I wanted to show is that there is worse than having a lemmon like "Wishbone" talked about in his situation with his P99 and to make sure people know what happened to the S&W99NJ

and just to make you see a few more Kabooms of other brands

18DAI · April 18, 2006, 09:04 PM

joecad - Not to derail this thread , the HK's actually are not at fault here. Absent a reply from UNCUT to the contrary ,I submit the HK pictures are of survivors of a Kaboom from a double charge or ,overcharged round. They actually did what they are designed to do ,and protected the operator by absorbing and chaneling the detonation through the frame by splitting rather than exploding. On another forum you can find very similar, if not the same, photos attached to a USPF 45 owners story, about a Kaboom caused by a double charged "gunshow" ammo purchase. The happy owner walked away without a scratch. He reported that his hand stung for awhile. He sent the USP to HK who charged him $239 for a new frame. IIRC the slide and barrel were unharmed! I own three HK USP's (in the interest of full disclosure) I'm sure that HK ,just like every manufacturer of any product, has had a lemon. I just don't think it is helpful ,or correct ,to post photo's of a pair of guns that have survived a Kaboom from incorrectly loaded cartridges ,and insinuate they are somehow faulty or "Lemons". Regards 18DAI.

18DAI · April 18, 2006, 09:12 PM

UNCUT - Thanks ,I was typing a response to joecad when you responded. I agree that perhaps it is unfair to judge all of a manufacturers guns by one example (except Kimber ,just kidding) but I don't think that Kabooms are a good example of other handguns that are "Lemons". The Kabooms happen because of double ,or overcharged ammunition. The owners of the guns put the round into an otherwise functional gun ,and render it unfunctional do to the resulting overpressure. Perhaps a better illustration of your point might be the barrels blowing off the NC DOC's S&W M 65-6's. In that case clearly ,it is faulty workmanship on the part of the manufacturer. Regards 18DAI.

cslinger · April 18, 2006, 09:44 PM

Everybody makes lemons, EVERYBODY. Our Walther P99 9mm all German has thousands of rounds through it without a SINGLE malfunction that I can recall. Our P99C 9mm has only a few hundred through it but can be limp wristed, shot sideways etc. etc. and doesn't malfunction. I haven't been able to induce a malfunction in either gun. (induce being intentional limp wristing, odd shooting positions etc. Not throw it in the lake, run over it with a car.)

uncut · April 18, 2006, 09:56 PM

I have looked up the post of the H&K USP45Tactical
yes it was a reload.........

Sorry again if in the heat of the moment, due to the incorrect information of the S&W99NJ, I too mislead..... it was not intentional.....

Also I would have not started a new post on it if the quoted above would had not been too old to reply
Sorry again.... stay safe

MTMilitiaman · April 18, 2006, 10:15 PM

Quote:

I keep mine just so I can complain when the occasion arises..

Exactly the reason I keep my HK USP Tactical around. How ironic. Well that and the fact that I would rather spend the money it would take to get it fixed on ammo for my Glock, which actually works and has turned out to be twice the pistol the HK is, and at half the cost.

The Geologist · April 18, 2006, 11:01 PM

I liked my Walther P22 so much I got a P99. Then I liked the P99 so much I got a P99C, which, it turns out, I shoot better than any other gun I own. I think the Walther P99 is one of the most under-rated handguns in existance.

uncut · April 19, 2006, 12:08 AM

+1 on that comment

it's a police gun for a reason...... so is the new H&K P2000

apparently the British SAS have replaced their P5c with the P99c.... which I still have to find a way to confirm..... can't find anything on it

MuthaGoose · April 19, 2006, 12:55 AM

Quote:

the Walther P99 is one of the most under-rated handguns in existance.

I totally agree

Gazpacho · April 19, 2006, 03:17 AM

NJSP is the department where the officers kept shooting themselves in the foot with their HK P7s, right?

Johnny Guest · April 19, 2006, 07:04 AM

uncut - -
Is there some particular reason why you resurrected a single post from almost exactly four years ago? I understand brand loyalty, at least to some extent, but this seems a rather long reach. And, that was your very first post on TFL. (Welcome aboard, by the way.

) Did you register for the sole purpose of defending the honor of the Walther company in general, or the P99 in particular? Or is there a difficulty with member wishbone's writing?

I hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with what you have written, and your posting style is articulate and polite. I'm just curious.

Perhaps I should state here that I truly have no dog in this fight. I do not own or shoot a P99, OR an HK of any model. In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll reveal that I do own a single Walther, a 40-year-old PPK 9mmK.

Best,
Johnny

Palomino · April 19, 2006, 07:27 AM

Well, I hope my HK USP does not give me any problems. I purchased it yesterday. I wanted the Sig Pro .357 but too much money.

I am on my way out shortly to the range.

**Mike Irwin** · April 19, 2006, 09:19 AM

Hot loads are one thing.

Blatant overloads are another entirely. The two HK pictures show not hot loads, but loads that would cause problems in ANY handgun, not just a polymer handgun.

You'll reach a point with overloads (caused by too much powder or other reasons) that the pressure is simply too much to be contained by any gun.

Is that the fault of the gun because it couldn't handle out and out abuse, or is that the fault of the shooter?

Of course, the gun companies could make a gun designed to handle spectacular overloads.

Only the barrel would be a 4" thick at the breech and it would weigh on the order of 20 pounds.

Don't blame the device for operator error.

PinnedAndRecessed · April 19, 2006, 10:21 AM

The text from the poster of above photos: "Here is a buddy's Glock after reloaded lead. (they were hot loads and this model was prone to failures - .40 cal). The manufacture wanted this back for study or something.

But instead he decided to make a decoration with it

) Don't get me wrong they are great semi autos and I never leave home with out my g30

Just don?t shoot reloads the rifling is reversed and they blow up. Use factory ammo and its all good. Plus for a carry gun I would never ever have anything in it but factory ammo."

I then asked if his buddy was hurt.

He continued, "No sir, in that firing of the pictured weapon, he was fine. I think he had one scrape on his hand by it miss firing

He passed away from natural causes two years back

Natural causes = old age and alcohol. He was a great ammo loader, taught me lots of stuff and there is allot of things from him I own now.."

April 18, 2006, 04:50 PM	#3
Anthony2 Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 360	What in the world happened? What happened? Did you run them over or something? __________________ "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."-Voltaire "Baaa or Freedom!" - Ted Nugent "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." - Ghandi "The Addiction to Guns, The only addiction to ever SAVE a life!"- Me

April 18, 2006, 05:32 PM	#7
Hal8000 Member Join Date: April 15, 2006 Location: Royal Gorge Bridge area, Colorado Posts: 27	Try before you cry! The Walther P99 is a P.O.S.! That's why I have four of them and am trying to figure out how to get my 5th... I agree with you uncut 100%... I've had more problems with Rugers than any other brand I've owned, probably because I've owned more Rugers than any other brand. Thing is, Ruger has fixed every single one without hesitation or delay. I still like, own and will buy more Rugers. They are great guns but like you said, "Every company produces lemmons". So what, give them a chance to rectify the problem first, then complain if they don't fix the problem... Tell you what though, I'll bet most people know he was just ranting and flat blew him off as a sore consumer that would rather cost the company some sales than to see if they would fix it for him... Ignore him! I'm going to... In fact, I'll not add any more to this thread either for the simple sales philosophy I learned "many moons ago"... Boost your product, don't cut the competitions. (the competition looks at it as exposure) __________________ That which does not kill us, strengthens us!

April 18, 2006, 06:10 PM	#9
fairview mick Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Location: North Olmsted Posts: 795	To 18da1 Great informative post. Mickey __________________ 90% of my hard earned money went to Hot women, fast bikes and guns. THE REST I WASTED!!!!! Mickey-NRA life member

April 18, 2006, 07:45 PM	#11
joecad Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: nky Posts: 263	wow indeed did h&k have any comments on these weapons.....i'ld replace them just to try to make the best of a bad situation....that kind of pr can kill a company.....problems of a much smaller nature killed llama....just as they were getting it together. __________________ I'ld rather die standing than live kneeling

April 18, 2006, 09:44 PM	#15
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Everybody makes lemons, EVERYBODY. Our Walther P99 9mm all German has thousands of rounds through it without a SINGLE malfunction that I can recall. Our P99C 9mm has only a few hundred through it but can be limp wristed, shot sideways etc. etc. and doesn't malfunction. I haven't been able to induce a malfunction in either gun. (induce being intentional limp wristing, odd shooting positions etc. Not throw it in the lake, run over it with a car.) __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

April 18, 2006, 04:46 PM	#2
Bullrock Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2004 Posts: 2,686	Wow!

April 18, 2006, 05:06 PM	#4
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	My German Walther P99 QA has over 900 PERFECT rounds through it. NO problems at all but 1 extra mag needed replacing. Hardly an inferior pistol. One of the best triggers out there too. (after 1911s) Also - my P2000 has over 800 PERFECT rounds, so I like 'em both.

April 18, 2006, 05:12 PM	#5
famine Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2005 Location: Buffalo MN Posts: 113	Another reason not to trust polimer frames Famine

April 18, 2006, 05:32 PM	#6
18DAI Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 2,156	UNCUT - Your post of the two "HK Lemons" is a bit misleading. Both of those HK's show damage from overcharged cartridges. In an overcharged round ,the hot expanding gas blows back and down ,typically (as your pics show) blowing out pieces of the frame where it says Made in Germany; and splitting the frame in two. You can find a few photos like yours (if not THE photos) at HKpro. You will also notice the plate blown out of the bottom of the mag ,again typical of a Kaboom. Please explain to me how an HK, surviving pretty well IMHO, a catastrophic Kaboom makes them a lemon? Regards 18DAI.

April 18, 2006, 05:33 PM	#8
HorseSoldier Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: OCONUS 61°13′06″N 149°53′57″W Posts: 2,282	Never had a single failure to fire, failure to extract, failure to go into battery or any other malfunction with my P-99AS 9mm with a couple thousand rounds through it.

April 18, 2006, 06:26 PM	#10
18DAI Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 2,156	Thanks Mick . While I agree somewhat with UNCUT's premise ,I think it is inadvisable to illustrate that premise ,with a false one. YMMV Regards 18DAI.

April 18, 2006, 08:52 PM	#12
uncut Member Join Date: April 18, 2006 Location: Utah at the moment... Posts: 50	18DAI you are right about those pics being on HKpro and look who posted them there http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/...b=5&o=&fpart=1 Neither on of those are mine.... and yes you might be right about them being shot too "hot" but if I remeber correctly....H&K claims that their USP's are designed to handle hot loads I didn't post those pics to mislead or say H&K is a bad product.... just to show that with every gun there is things that can go wrong.... I am sorry if I might have fallen in the same trap about misleading..... but since neither of any of those guns are mine..... I don't know how they ended up this way...... and all I wanted to show is that there is worse than having a lemmon like "Wishbone" talked about in his situation with his P99 and to make sure people know what happened to the S&W99NJ and just to make you see a few more Kabooms of other brands

April 18, 2006, 09:04 PM	#13
18DAI Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 2,156	joecad - Not to derail this thread , the HK's actually are not at fault here. Absent a reply from UNCUT to the contrary ,I submit the HK pictures are of survivors of a Kaboom from a double charge or ,overcharged round. They actually did what they are designed to do ,and protected the operator by absorbing and chaneling the detonation through the frame by splitting rather than exploding. On another forum you can find very similar, if not the same, photos attached to a USPF 45 owners story, about a Kaboom caused by a double charged "gunshow" ammo purchase. The happy owner walked away without a scratch. He reported that his hand stung for awhile. He sent the USP to HK who charged him $239 for a new frame. IIRC the slide and barrel were unharmed! I own three HK USP's (in the interest of full disclosure) I'm sure that HK ,just like every manufacturer of any product, has had a lemon. I just don't think it is helpful ,or correct ,to post photo's of a pair of guns that have survived a Kaboom from incorrectly loaded cartridges ,and insinuate they are somehow faulty or "Lemons". Regards 18DAI.

April 18, 2006, 09:12 PM	#14
18DAI Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 2,156	UNCUT - Thanks ,I was typing a response to joecad when you responded. I agree that perhaps it is unfair to judge all of a manufacturers guns by one example (except Kimber ,just kidding) but I don't think that Kabooms are a good example of other handguns that are "Lemons". The Kabooms happen because of double ,or overcharged ammunition. The owners of the guns put the round into an otherwise functional gun ,and render it unfunctional do to the resulting overpressure. Perhaps a better illustration of your point might be the barrels blowing off the NC DOC's S&W M 65-6's. In that case clearly ,it is faulty workmanship on the part of the manufacturer. Regards 18DAI.

April 18, 2006, 09:56 PM	#16
uncut Member Join Date: April 18, 2006 Location: Utah at the moment... Posts: 50	I have looked up the post of the H&K USP45Tactical yes it was a reload......... Sorry again if in the heat of the moment, due to the incorrect information of the S&W99NJ, I too mislead..... it was not intentional..... Also I would have not started a new post on it if the quoted above would had not been too old to reply Sorry again.... stay safe

April 18, 2006, 11:01 PM	#18
The Geologist Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2005 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 4	I liked my Walther P22 so much I got a P99. Then I liked the P99 so much I got a P99C, which, it turns out, I shoot better than any other gun I own. I think the Walther P99 is one of the most under-rated handguns in existance.

April 19, 2006, 12:08 AM	#19
uncut Member Join Date: April 18, 2006 Location: Utah at the moment... Posts: 50	+1 on that comment it's a police gun for a reason...... so is the new H&K P2000 apparently the British SAS have replaced their P5c with the P99c.... which I still have to find a way to confirm..... can't find anything on it

April 19, 2006, 03:17 AM	#21
Gazpacho Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2004 Posts: 592	NJSP is the department where the officers kept shooting themselves in the foot with their HK P7s, right?

April 19, 2006, 07:04 AM	#22
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	I can't help but wonder: uncut - - Is there some particular reason why you resurrected a single post from almost exactly four years ago? I understand brand loyalty, at least to some extent, but this seems a rather long reach. And, that was your very first post on TFL. (Welcome aboard, by the way. ) Did you register for the sole purpose of defending the honor of the Walther company in general, or the P99 in particular? Or is there a difficulty with member wishbone's writing? I hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with what you have written, and your posting style is articulate and polite. I'm just curious. Perhaps I should state here that I truly have no dog in this fight. I do not own or shoot a P99, OR an HK of any model. In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll reveal that I do own a single Walther, a 40-year-old PPK 9mmK. Best, Johnny

April 19, 2006, 07:27 AM	#23
Palomino Junior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 2	New HK owner Well, I hope my HK USP does not give me any problems. I purchased it yesterday. I wanted the Sig Pro .357 but too much money. I am on my way out shortly to the range.

April 19, 2006, 09:19 AM	#24
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Hot loads are one thing. Blatant overloads are another entirely. The two HK pictures show not hot loads, but loads that would cause problems in ANY handgun, not just a polymer handgun. You'll reach a point with overloads (caused by too much powder or other reasons) that the pressure is simply too much to be contained by any gun. Is that the fault of the gun because it couldn't handle out and out abuse, or is that the fault of the shooter? Of course, the gun companies could make a gun designed to handle spectacular overloads. Only the barrel would be a 4" thick at the breech and it would weigh on the order of 20 pounds. Don't blame the device for operator error. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 19, 2006, 10:21 AM	#25
PinnedAndRecessed Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2004 Posts: 449	The text from the poster of above photos: "Here is a buddy's Glock after reloaded lead. (they were hot loads and this model was prone to failures - .40 cal). The manufacture wanted this back for study or something. But instead he decided to make a decoration with it ) Don't get me wrong they are great semi autos and I never leave home with out my g30 Just don?t shoot reloads the rifling is reversed and they blow up. Use factory ammo and its all good. Plus for a carry gun I would never ever have anything in it but factory ammo." I then asked if his buddy was hurt. He continued, "No sir, in that firing of the pictured weapon, he was fine. I think he had one scrape on his hand by it miss firing He passed away from natural causes two years back Natural causes = old age and alcohol. He was a great ammo loader, taught me lots of stuff and there is allot of things from him I own now.."

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