Performance: Pistol & Revolver

Moloch · May 10, 2006, 12:01 PM

Hello people,

does anyone know a site where I can find gelatine tests of the big three (.45, 40; 9mm) compared with .357mag .38spcl and .44mag. ?

I had a harsh discussion with a buddy; he said a a .357mag will penetrate twice as deep as any semi-auto handgun cartridge and I can't belive him.(JHP)
Yes, the 357mag is a revolver round, it has a smaller diameter than .40 and 45 and its faster but it IMO it will not outperform the pistol calibers that much.

I think there is not that much difference in performance between .357mag and the big three.

On the other side I've never seen .357mag or .44mag JHP gelatin tests compared with the big three so I can't show him anything.

.44mag is a different story.

I dont want to start a caliber war here! I just want a fair comparison gelatin pic between them.

RsqVet · May 10, 2006, 12:06 PM

Your friend may be right but only in the context of a 180 grain hard cast 357 probibly not in terms of common anti-personel rounds, when the 357 came out it was the "most powerful" handgun and a fair amount of large and dangerous game was takne with it, now relative to other rounds it's consdiered "weak"

Best luck in your search

KC135 · May 10, 2006, 03:28 PM

The troop at www.stoppingpower.net have shot a couple of thousand pounds of jello in the last two years.

Can't remember exactly what calibers.

Also check manuufacturers sites.

Willy T · May 11, 2006, 12:34 AM

In the auto rounds you listed I would say your friend is pretty close to right. The only largely produced auto round in your favor is the 10mm which in heavier weights equals the 357 and in FMJ might edge it out. My opinion only of course. Oops re-read your post...twice as much....I dont think so.

**44 AMP** · May 12, 2006, 02:39 AM

Maybe you should remind your friend that the .357 Automag, .357 Grizzly Winmag, .44 Automag, .45 Win mag, .475 Wildey, and .50 Action Express are "semi auto handgun cartridges". So id the new FN 5.7mm. He also might be impressed with the penetration of the .30 Mauser.

I'm sure he was only thinking of the more common commercial rounds, but that is not what you quoted him as saying. Consider the .357 AMP/Grizzly round will drive the same bullet 30% to 50% faster than the .357 revolver round, I don't think the revolver round will penetrate "twice as much"

Handy · May 12, 2006, 08:16 AM

If two .356 caliber bullets are the same weight, bullet style and velocity, they will pentrate exactly the same.

Load a 9x23 or .357 mag the same way, and they'll make the same hole. Load a .38-40 like a .40 S&W, same story.

Webleymkv · May 12, 2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Maybe you should remind your friend that the .357 Automag, .357 Grizzly Winmag, .44 Automag, .45 Win mag, .475 Wildey, and .50 Action Express are "semi auto handgun cartridges". So id the new FN 5.7mm. He also might be impressed with the penetration of the .30 Mauser.

You don't even need to cite such exotic cartridges, the good old 10mm will most likely outpenetrate most .357 loads. Your friend is, however, partially right: the .357 magnum (with 158grn or heavier bullets of similar construction) will out penetrate the big three auto calibers by a good margin (though not to the degree that he mentions, 3-4 inches is more likely).

Larry C. · May 30, 2006, 11:08 PM

Howdy,

The lowly 9mm has demostrated considerable ability to penetrate. I'd like to see some data concerning penetration with +P rds fired from the 5-inch barrel of a Beretta 92FS. It wouldn't surprise me if it rivaled .357 from the common 4-inch barrel. Gun scribe Chris Christian has made similar observations about the 9mm penetrating wood.

Larry C.

rnovi · May 31, 2006, 01:35 AM

I own the following: GP100 in .357, XD 9mm, 1911 .45acp, 625JM .45acp, and a Grizzly in .45winmag.

I can tell you from all the shooting that I have done that there IS such a thing as over-penetration. Simply claiming that a .357 is such an awesome penetrator is pointless if you are looking to use the gun for self defense! A 180 grain "penetrator" at 1400fps is going to penetrate not only the badguy but the walls of the house behind him. Not much value in that.

By the same token I could use my .45 winmag for defense...and I'd blow through the BG, my house, the nieghbors house, and so on.

The "trick", if there is one, is to match penetration with the job at hand. If you want self defense then you want a certain level of penetration. In a .357 that level of penetration is normally found in a 125gr jacketed hollowpoint - typically 6-8" IIRC. To that end, a 185-230 gr .45 acp hollowpoint at 800fps is effective...just as is a 9mm 115gr JHP at 1100fps...

"Bigger" isn't always "Better". It's just different.

Jack Malloy · June 1, 2006, 09:25 AM

One of the old Law Enforcement Handgun Digests had an article in it about penetration in automobile bodies. Other than the 9mm most auto pistol rounds were abysmal at penetrating car bodies, about on par with a .38 spl wimp load.
Of course, they had no 10 mm around back then.

I would say your friend is mostly right.
The .357 Sig is advertized as being the equal of the .357 mag, but that is just so much ballistic masterbation. Maybe out of a 1 inch snubby revolver compared to an extra long glock it would come close, but it ain't equal.

Minator · June 1, 2006, 02:55 PM

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

.357/38 has a longer range/and is still efective than any of them even from a 2 inch barrel check this video out of bob munden at 200 yards with a 2" 38 S&W

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M0IO8yvvd...h=bob%20munden

givo08 · June 1, 2006, 03:51 PM

For penetration, I think a .44 mag will penetrate a lot more then the other rounds listed, but there isn't much difference in penetration between 9mm, .45acp, .40 s&w, and .357 mag in the top defense loads. Visit www.stoppingpower.net and check out the forums for more discussion on this. After a little research, you'll see there really isn't much difference in these 3 loads from a performance standpoint.

Alex_L · June 1, 2006, 05:50 PM

Somebody have seen this so-much-mentioned "overpenetration"? With all the possible respect, it sounds urban legend. Underpenetration is much more possible.

GoSlash27 · June 1, 2006, 06:40 PM

Alex,
Any jello-shot you care to look at will show that the main calibers penetrate about 32" when firing FMJ. Your torso isn't 32" across in any direction.

Overpenetration is definitely preferable to underpenetration, but you didn't wreak all the havoc you should have when it happens.
I don't believe that there is an upper limit for effective pistol calibers. But there sure as heck is a lower one.

mjrodney · June 2, 2006, 03:24 AM

GoSlash27 wrote:

"Your torso isn't 32" across in any direction."

Not yet, but I'm working on it.

blume357 · June 2, 2006, 04:17 AM

especially this test they did one day... which had the 357 in it and as has been suggested above... is not as powerful as we might think. Best part was the last shot they did.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

45/70 rifle... went through 12 boards of 1/2" sheetrock, gallon of water, 1" pine, 4" brick, 1" pine and was still headed down range 'mad as the dickens".

I'm beginning to think that tag line by one of our members that a pistol is used to fight your way to a rifle is very practical.

May 10, 2006, 12:01 PM	#1
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Not from here.... Posts: 1,142	Performance: Pistol & Revolver Hello people, does anyone know a site where I can find gelatine tests of the big three (.45, 40; 9mm) compared with .357mag .38spcl and .44mag. ? I had a harsh discussion with a buddy; he said a a .357mag will penetrate twice as deep as any semi-auto handgun cartridge and I can't belive him.(JHP) Yes, the 357mag is a revolver round, it has a smaller diameter than .40 and 45 and its faster but it IMO it will not outperform the pistol calibers that much. I think there is not that much difference in performance between .357mag and the big three. On the other side I've never seen .357mag or .44mag JHP gelatin tests compared with the big three so I can't show him anything. .44mag is a different story. I dont want to start a caliber war here! I just want a fair comparison gelatin pic between them.

May 12, 2006, 02:39 AM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 5,354	ANY semi auto handgun cartridge? Maybe you should remind your friend that the .357 Automag, .357 Grizzly Winmag, .44 Automag, .45 Win mag, .475 Wildey, and .50 Action Express are "semi auto handgun cartridges". So id the new FN 5.7mm. He also might be impressed with the penetration of the .30 Mauser. I'm sure he was only thinking of the more common commercial rounds, but that is not what you quoted him as saying. Consider the .357 AMP/Grizzly round will drive the same bullet 30% to 50% faster than the .357 revolver round, I don't think the revolver round will penetrate "twice as much"

May 30, 2006, 11:08 PM	#8
Larry C. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: La. Posts: 308	Don't forget the 9mm for penetration Howdy, The lowly 9mm has demostrated considerable ability to penetrate. I'd like to see some data concerning penetration with +P rds fired from the 5-inch barrel of a Beretta 92FS. It wouldn't surprise me if it rivaled .357 from the common 4-inch barrel. Gun scribe Chris Christian has made similar observations about the 9mm penetrating wood. Larry C.

May 31, 2006, 01:35 AM	#9
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	I own the following: GP100 in .357, XD 9mm, 1911 .45acp, 625JM .45acp, and a Grizzly in .45winmag. I can tell you from all the shooting that I have done that there IS such a thing as over-penetration. Simply claiming that a .357 is such an awesome penetrator is pointless if you are looking to use the gun for self defense! A 180 grain "penetrator" at 1400fps is going to penetrate not only the badguy but the walls of the house behind him. Not much value in that. By the same token I could use my .45 winmag for defense...and I'd blow through the BG, my house, the nieghbors house, and so on. The "trick", if there is one, is to match penetration with the job at hand. If you want self defense then you want a certain level of penetration. In a .357 that level of penetration is normally found in a 125gr jacketed hollowpoint - typically 6-8" IIRC. To that end, a 185-230 gr .45 acp hollowpoint at 800fps is effective...just as is a 9mm 115gr JHP at 1100fps... "Bigger" isn't always "Better". It's just different. __________________ Robert N. "Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"

June 1, 2006, 06:40 PM	#14
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	Alex, Any jello-shot you care to look at will show that the main calibers penetrate about 32" when firing FMJ. Your torso isn't 32" across in any direction. Overpenetration is definitely preferable to underpenetration, but you didn't wreak all the havoc you should have when it happens. I don't believe that there is an upper limit for effective pistol calibers. But there sure as heck is a lower one. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

May 10, 2006, 12:06 PM	#2
RsqVet Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Posts: 1,910	Your friend may be right but only in the context of a 180 grain hard cast 357 probibly not in terms of common anti-personel rounds, when the 357 came out it was the "most powerful" handgun and a fair amount of large and dangerous game was takne with it, now relative to other rounds it's consdiered "weak" Best luck in your search

May 10, 2006, 03:28 PM	#3
KC135 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2004 Location: Midwest Posts: 222	The troop at www.stoppingpower.net have shot a couple of thousand pounds of jello in the last two years. Can't remember exactly what calibers. Also check manuufacturers sites.

May 11, 2006, 12:34 AM	#4
Willy T Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2006 Location: Alaska Posts: 526	In the auto rounds you listed I would say your friend is pretty close to right. The only largely produced auto round in your favor is the 10mm which in heavier weights equals the 357 and in FMJ might edge it out. My opinion only of course. Oops re-read your post...twice as much....I dont think so.

May 12, 2006, 08:16 AM	#6
Handy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,793	If two .356 caliber bullets are the same weight, bullet style and velocity, they will pentrate exactly the same. Load a 9x23 or .357 mag the same way, and they'll make the same hole. Load a .38-40 like a .40 S&W, same story.

June 1, 2006, 09:25 AM	#10
Jack Malloy Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 791	One of the old Law Enforcement Handgun Digests had an article in it about penetration in automobile bodies. Other than the 9mm most auto pistol rounds were abysmal at penetrating car bodies, about on par with a .38 spl wimp load. Of course, they had no 10 mm around back then. I would say your friend is mostly right. The .357 Sig is advertized as being the equal of the .357 mag, but that is just so much ballistic masterbation. Maybe out of a 1 inch snubby revolver compared to an extra long glock it would come close, but it ain't equal.

June 1, 2006, 02:55 PM	#11
Minator Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2005 Location: South Texas Posts: 462	http://www.theboxotruth.com/ .357/38 has a longer range/and is still efective than any of them even from a 2 inch barrel check this video out of bob munden at 200 yards with a 2" 38 S&W http://youtube.com/watch?v=M0IO8yvvd...h=bob%20munden

June 1, 2006, 03:51 PM	#12
givo08 Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2006 Posts: 234	For penetration, I think a .44 mag will penetrate a lot more then the other rounds listed, but there isn't much difference in penetration between 9mm, .45acp, .40 s&w, and .357 mag in the top defense loads. Visit www.stoppingpower.net and check out the forums for more discussion on this. After a little research, you'll see there really isn't much difference in these 3 loads from a performance standpoint.

June 1, 2006, 05:50 PM	#13
Alex_L Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2005 Posts: 144	Somebody have seen this so-much-mentioned "overpenetration"? With all the possible respect, it sounds urban legend. Underpenetration is much more possible.

June 2, 2006, 03:24 AM	#15
mjrodney Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 435	GoSlash27 wrote: "Your torso isn't 32" across in any direction." Not yet, but I'm working on it. __________________ Proud supporter of the NRA

June 2, 2006, 04:17 AM	#16
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,156	box of truth seems pretty neat especially this test they did one day... which had the 357 in it and as has been suggested above... is not as powerful as we might think. Best part was the last shot they did. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm 45/70 rifle... went through 12 boards of 1/2" sheetrock, gallon of water, 1" pine, 4" brick, 1" pine and was still headed down range 'mad as the dickens". I'm beginning to think that tag line by one of our members that a pistol is used to fight your way to a rifle is very practical.