Car Doors..Update 2.0

[VUPDblue]

Well, I finally got to the range with my Caprice Door (click here for recent thread) and did a little testing. First lets outline the testing specs:

The door was attached to a sturdy wooden frame at an elevation of 15", and placed at a distance of 12 feet from the shooter.

Behind the door was placed the Chronograph to record the velocities of any bullets that penetrated through both sides (outer door skin and inner door skin) of the door. Behind the Chrony was placed boxes full of compressed burlap to capture (hopefully) any bullets that would be chrony'd.


All Bullets were chrony'd beforehand in 3 shot groups at 12 feet for each load and the average of the three was recorded to determine velocity before impact.

Most of my hypotheses were proven correct, however I did discover some interesting bullet behavior. Lets look at some of the effects, shal we..?

Here is the front of the door after testing.


And here is the back of the door after testing. Note the largest 'exit wound' just low and left of center.

The above mentioned exit wound was caused by the .44mag (240gr JHP)striking and breaking one of the window motor gearsand then pushing said gear through the back of the door. The interesting thing is that EVERY OTHER CALIBER failed to penetrate after it struck the same gear. At no point did the .22lr penetrate both sides of the door, no matter what weapon fired the round (rifle or pistol). See next post.......

[VUPDblue]

Here is a closeup of the .44mag hole(s): Note in the background the perfectly shaped entrance hole.

Every other caliber tested (9mm, .38, .357, .40, .45, .357sig, .223, 30-06, .30carbine) penetrated both sides with all ammunition tested.
Ammunition indeed, and here is the lineup of ammunition used:
9mm-147gr ball, 147gr Federal Hi-Shok
.38spl- 158gr semi wadcutter, 129gr Hydra Shok
.357mag- 125gr JSP, 125gr Gold Dot
.40- 180gr JFP, 165gr Gold Dot
.357sig- 125gr JHP, 125gr Gold Dot
.45- 230gr Ball, 230gr Hydra Shok
.22lr- 38gr Federal HP, 40gr Federal RN
All Centerfire Rifle was Milsurp Ball

Most interesting to me was the behavior of the 'defense style' bullets after penetration. Every single bullet behaved opposite of how it was designed to. The HP's caved in on themselves and then compacted to form a mushroom. The Hydra-Shok's all experienced jacket separation after penetrating the first layer. Other than the Hydra Shoks, everything else retained most of its weight.

The mushroomed bullets striking a human target that may have been behind the door would behave much different than they were intended.
Here are a couple of shots of the shooter (me) and the weapons...





I know everyone said that car doors are not good cover, and I knew that they weren't. I just wanted to do a little field work and see what actually happens. Great fun to boot! Anyhow, the weapons used were: US&S 1911,Colt King Cobra 4", Glock 22, Glock 31, Walther p22, Beretta 92fs, S&W 629 83/8", S&W J frame 2", CZ AR-15 .22lr conversion, M1 Garand, IBM .30 Carbine, Bushmaster M-4gery.

[BillCA]

VUPDBlue,

Nice report. Thank you for taking all the trouble to perform the testing, get the photos and document.

I'm presuming you're still documenting or correlating your chrony data. I'd be interested in how much velocity the bullets had after passing though the door. I would have suggested a 3/4" plywood backing in front of your burlap box to see how much gee-whiz was left in those rounds after hitting the door. I'd expect anywhere from a mere 25% loss (.44) to a 50% loss in velocity, depending on bullet weight and the obstructions faced.

[atlctyslkr]

This is one of the most informative posts I have read in a long time. Thank you for taking the time to do the field research.

Can I ask what the barrel length was on the 38 special and 357 magnum you used?

[VUPDblue]

The .38 was a S&W Chiefs Special with 2" bbl, and the .357 was a Colt King Cobra with a 4" bbl.

Here is some rough info on the exit velocities:

9mm ball 147gr- 1114 before and 1022 after
9mm 147gr Hi Shok- 946 before 730 after
.38 158gr SWC- 700 before 280 after
.38 129gr Hydra Shok- 781 before 532 after
.357 125gr JSP- 1005 before, 749 after
.357 125gr Gold Dot- 1333 before, 993 after
.40 180gr JFP- 950 before, 854 after
.40 165gr Gold Dot- 1065 before, 735 after
.357sig 125gr JHP- 1412 before, 1213 after
.357sig 125gr Gold Dot- 1410 before, 1122 after
.45- 230gr Ball- 844before, 710 after
.45- 230gr Hydra Shok- 869 Before, 615 After

No chrony data avail for the .44mag but the factory loads were supposed to be close to 1700fps with a 240gr JHP.

Thanks for the interest, guys. I really enjoy doing this kind of research and I am happy to be able to share it with everyone at TFL. Next up will hopefully be windshields, and then ballistic gelatin.

Feel free to ask any more questions.
-Nick

[JJB2]

very enlightening!!! i knew that car doors were a poor cover but this is a very good proof house type of testing... thanks!! by the way where did you get the police cruiser door????

[VUPDblue]

I just went down to one of the local salvage yards and told them I was looking for a door. They let me walk the lot and pick out what I wanted, and lo and behold, there were 3 identical retired (and somewhat damaged) IPD cars. Perfect!

[Skyguy]

The mushroomed bullets striking a human target that may have been behind the door would behave much different than they were intended.

Excellent post, vupd!

Couldn't help but notice the poor expansion performance of the self defense style bullets.

I've noted the same disappointing performance from hydra-shocks and golden sabres.

Below is a picture of both of them and federal EFMJ's.
All 3 are .45's shot through 4 layers of denim and into a deep wetpack.

The popular hollowpoints plugged up and didn't penetrate any further than the EFMJ's; about 11".

.

Here's a pic of a windshield in front of a wetpack.

Again the EFMJ's penetrated deep into the wetpack from 90 degrees out to about 30 degrees...at a distance of about 20 ft.

.

.

[Odd Job]

@ VUPDBlue

Thanks for such a great post! I'll be watching for more of yours.

[VUPDblue]

First off, thanks for the great feedback on the post. Secondly, a byproduct of this test was the noticeable performance (or lack there of) of the "premium defense rounds". As skyguy also noted with his performance test of the same rounds, there has to be a "better way". What if there was a handgun bullet that would penetrate clothing or other barriers and then perform as was intended of the Hydra Shoks, Gold Dots and the like...? Maybe a ballistic tip of some sort? I will give that some thought and see what I can come up with. What do you guys think about that?

-Nick

[Dave R]

Great data, VUPD and skyguy.

Looks like all the centerfire rounds went through the car door with enough retained velocity to do serious damage. Great job with the objective data.

[BobK]

Interesting. Next time try Corbon DPX.

Thanks for the great post.

[croyance]

Thanks for taking the time to use a snubbie .38 Special and not just using the King Cobra again.

[chrisandclauida2]

i think you would find a huge difference in how the hp ammo performed if you shoot into the media it was designed to perform in. buy a pig or like animal and try it out. i think the would perform better.

yes many hollow point ammo can clog up and not expand. this can lead to over penetration. i think wet newsprint is much more dense than animal tissue. thus will not be the best indicator of performance.

but it is all a crap shoot. that is why we dont depend on new gadgets weapons sights and ammo . we have to depend on placement and training and technique. these are the only things we can control

excellent test and info. thanks very much

[VUPDblue]

Thanks for taking the time to use a snubbie .38 Special and not just using the King Cobra again

The point was to use a variety of weapons that would be encountered on 'the street'. Glad you liked it...

i think you would find a huge difference in how the hp ammo performed if you shoot into the media it was designed to perform in. buy a pig or like animal and try it out. i think the would perform better.

You are correct here. While I have done some testing with gelatin and seen how these rounds were supposed to perform, I was just surprised to see how they did perform in a situation like the one with the door. The result I got was not the intended purpose of this experiment, more like an interesting by-product.

-Nick

[DTakas]

VUPDblue,

I’m really impressed. Great post. I'd be interested in a similar test on shotgun loads.

Just out of curiosity, weren't you worried about fragments of the door or the bullets damaging the second chronograph? I take it no damage was done regardless?

Once again Great work.

[Arizona Fusilier]

Fantastic, no-nonsense research; thanks for posting.

Pretty much mimics some much more informal testing I did 20+ years ago when I went wild on a friend's volunteered trash car in the desert.

It would seem the most moderm, extreme, frangible rounds optimized for human flesh are the worst peformers in car doors and other barricade situations. As I noted with Silvertip 20 years ago, the more modest hollowpoints do tend to collpapse on themselves, and retain enough mass to do some type of damage.

Silvertip is still my hollowpoint of choice even today.

[BusGunner007]

Great job.
I was interested in the .40 CAL. performance, often called the .40 Short & Weak...
My nickname for it is: .40 Sheetmetal & Windshield.

Maybe that case of .40 JFP I bought IS really defensive ammo after all.

Looking forward to your next test.

[GoSlash27]

VUPD Blue,
Did you try to capture any rounds straight into the burlap? It might be the capture method that kept the defense ammunition from deploying properly rather than the door.
I have read lots of FBI gel shots and one from Canada that show consistent penetration and expansion of JHPs after the sheet metal test.

[Odd Job]

@ GoSlash27

Did you try to capture any rounds straight into the burlap? It might be the capture method that kept the defense ammunition from deploying properly rather than the door.

(If I may be so bold as to answer on VUPDBlue's behalf)

The burlap was the backstop AFTER the projectiles had passed through the door. If the projectiles had expanded upon passing through the door, they would remain in that expanded state upon lodging in the burlap. In effect, the burlap backstop has no influence on whether the projectiles expand in the door or not, because the burlap is the last item struck.

[GoSlash27]

Odd job,
Right....but did the door cause them to expand or the burlap itself?
As I said, there's all sorts of FBI steel tests out there and all of the major brand JHPs still seem to function fine.

[Rainbow Six]

Cool info. Looks like fun, too.

[Willy T]

VUPDU....I call that round 10mm in better than yesterdays Norma loads. My opinion of course. If you think of a better I would like to know. Always looking for better Please no 44automag stuff please.

[Odd Job]

@ GoSlash27

The images that VUPDBlue posted of projectiles that went through the door and then were caught in the burlap all show the same thing: the JHPs have not expanded as they would have if fired into a soft target or even a water trap. The question therefore cannot be asked whether they have expanded in the door or in the burlap, because compared to what we know and expect of JHPs these samples have not expanded at all (in the traditional sense of the word).

So what we have here is several JHPs that were fired through a door and failed to expand, but exhibited some degree of impact deformity (technically you could argue that this results in expansion, but it isn't the expansion that the manufacturer designed the projectile to achieve). I found the same effect when firing JHPs of various types out of a 9mm into cellulose sheets (quite a hard target). There was no beautiful 'mushroom' effect.

Car doors: my personal opinion about the mechanism of failure to expand is that the door metal does not enter the cavity of the projectile upon impact and therefore cannot contribute to the expansion of that hollowpoint.

[Lt. G]

Thanks for a great post and all of your hard work.

Lt. G