100 Yards with a snub .38sp?

[CosmoLover]

Ok, before you laugh too hard, I was wondering if any of you guys ever go long with your snubs. It was nearing sundown last night at the range, and my shooting partner and I were about to pack up our rifles and go when we got to bashing my crappy little Rossi in .38sp. It looked so pathetic, sitting there on the table with 200 rounds of grime all over it. It's an ok pistol and it's got 100% blueing and best of all, it was free.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...9F296268EEE5D9
To be honest, I've never seen one like it in person and have no idea what model it is. The closest I've come to ID'ing it was in a book that had a picture of a Lady Rossi. I prefer the term "tactically-small grip and frame" model. Then my buddy told me something to the tune that, "I bet it wouldn't reach out to the 100yd berm." Well, we still had a box of 130grain Federal FMJ's, but the mut pistol already had a lot of abuse that day and was still plenty warm. "What the heck," we were the only ones left and the range has about 8 miles of nothingness behind the final berms.

My first shot was a crap shoot. I thought I was being liberal by aiming about 5' high, but that first round hit the dirt about 20 yds short and about 30 yds to the left. So I continued, with my friend giggling like a school girl, aiming higher and higher from a standing postion until I finally reached the berm behind the target. I tried aiming, I tried point shooting, sitting, standign, sandbagging...yes, sanbags. With a straight aim, I was still mortaring those rounds waaaay to the left. Then after about 25-35 rounds, I got on paper. Not inside a ring, but close enough.

I had a blast trying to get that much range out of my sub-2" barrel, and can't wait to take my 6" S&W .357 out next time. Hopefully I'll have more luck. Anyone else enjoy long range mouse-gun shots? Would I have better luck with a lighter load? As far as shooting left, is it the indian or the arrow?

[tipoc]

I saw an episode of "Ripley's Believe It Or Not" recently where Bob Munden, the quick draw specialist, hit a party ballon at 200 yards with a 2" .38 snub. It took one shot. No tricks, just practice.

tipoc

[stephen426]

tipoc,

Are you saying that it is physically possible to reliably hit with a snubby .38 special at that distance? Sorry to sound skeptical but Les Baer on guarantees 3 inches at 50 yards and that is with a very high quality match barrel that is 5 inches long. Besides, with a long shot like that and the slow velocity of the .38 special, especially out of a snubby, there is a lot of time for wind to act on the bullet.

I have read about people making long shots while hunting game with revolvers, but never out of a snubby. Believe it or not?... NOT

[Bill DeShivs]

It's very possible. Barrel length has nothing to do with inherent accuracy. It's not easy to do, though.
Bill

[hpg]

piece of cake.......hpg

[stephen426]

Bill,

Could you please explain your statement?

Barrel length has nothing to do with inherent accuracy.

I though that the longer the barrel (up to a point), the more time it has to stabilize the bullet. I know that longer barrel length also increases velocity since the gases are only allowed to escape in one direction... behind the bullet. I'm not sure I follow or believe the claim barrel length does not affect inherent accuracy.

[azredhawk44]

stephen426:

I've got a 3" sp101 with which I can routinely hit an 8" target at 75 yards. I don't burn hundreds of rounds practicing this, so it takes me 2-3 rounds to get sighted in at this distance, but once I get of a few, I'm on paper all the time.

And no, I don't have to "mortar" the round to get it there, and I sure as heck don't have to adjust for 30 yards of horizontal windage. Even if the bullet is only doing 500fps (very unlikely it's this slow), the bullet will arrive at the target in about 0.6 seconds. With a 20mph wind, that wind could potentially shift the bullet 17.6 feet during those 0.6 seconds at 500fps if it reached out and grabbed it just right...which it won't due to the spin and the resistance its weight provides. I'd be surprised to see a 38sp bullet @500fps be moved more than two feet by a 20mph wind from a fixed barrel testing platform. As far as drop, 0.6 seconds of gravity gives you a drop of maybe 12 feet. Gravity is an acceleratory force, and increases with time. The first half a second of drop are fairly slow, only about 8 feet or so. This is mostly compensated for by the convergence of the sights and bore at 75-100 yards.

I've been tempted to hunt with my sp101... but I'm worried that the velocity would not be high enough for a clean kill.

[tipoc]

"Are you saying that it is physically possible to reliably hit with a snubby .38 special at that distance?"

For most of us, no. We are not professional shooters. But with practice it is possible. Old Ed McGivern used to do the same thing, and shows pictures of it in his book "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting". McGivern could reliably hit the chest area of a man sized target at 100 yards with a S&W M&P snubby .38. A party balloon measure about 6" by 8" or so, Munden hit it at 200 yards. He's done this in front of witnesses many times.

Les Baer builds guns that promise 1" at 50 yards, fired from a Ransom rest. Bullseye shooters at Camp Perry regularly place 1" 25 yard groups with 1911s.

The .38 Spl. is well known for it's stability in flight.

At typical handgun ranges, which 100 yards is not, a shorter barrel only means a shorter sight radius. This effects practical, rather than inherent or mechanical accuracy.

tipoc

[tulsamal]

If all I have to do is put on single round on a human size target at 100 yards, I can do it if you let me have two requirements. I get to use my gun (640-1) and my reloads. I've shot it quite a bit at 50 yards and had a good time putting one after the other into a tree trunk that was standing in pond water at 75 yards. You could see the splash if you missed. That gun will shoot. Of course it is a .357 Magnum but the reloads I was using are sort of "in between" .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

You would be totally out of your mind to go stand 100 yards away and let me shoot at you with that gun. Totally. I might not kill you but you will be seeking medical attention!

Gregg

[stephen426]

Thats pretty intersting AZ. Thanks for the info. I think on of the inherent accuracy problems with snubbies is sight radius. I'm sure a Ransom Rested gun could do way better than holding the gun. All I can say is that if I am in a fire fight at that distance, I hope I'll have a rifle!

[tulsamal]

A party balloon measure about 6" by 8" or so, Munden hit it at 200 yards. He's done this in front of witnesses many times.

I'm assuming we saw the same episode. That's not what I remember. (I could be wrong. My wife will tell you!) I remember he fastened the balloon to a steel plate target. So if he hit on the steel and anywhere near the balloon, the lead splash would get the balloon. Not minimizing his abilities but I didn't actually think that stunt was nearly as hard as some other stuff I've seen him do. It's his fast draw work that leaves me stunned.

Gregg

[Rimrod]

I shot some 130gr fmj at about 60 yds once, they only dropped a few inches at that distance.

I have a model 60 that I shoot at 100 yds with 158 SWCHP+p 38's. Using a silhouette target I aim at the bottom of the head and it hits center of the chest.

When shooting long range it is important to keep a consistent grip for each shot.

[jhenry]

If anyone thinks you can't reach out and touch someone at 100 yards with a .38 special out of a short barrel they have some learning to do. I absolutey assure you a good example of the breed can keep them all on a man sized target at that distance. You do need a good man behind the trigger. The sight radius is short and any deviation will be more magnified over something with a longer barrel. Trigger control etc. is crucial. And yes the short barrel will stabilize the slug just fine.

The Rossi sounds like those fixed sights are way off. A .38 dosen't drop that much at that distance.

[smince]

I'm sure a Ransom Rested gun could do way better than holding the gun

You are correct about the short sight radius being a problem. Ransom Rest a snubby next to an 8" or longer barrel revolver and you will find very little difference in the "inherent" accuracy.

Watching Munden bust hand-thrown clay pigeons with a .45Colt derringer was amazing to me.

I shot my 1911 prone at 100 on a few occasions. Sitting the head of a target on the front sight, most of my shots clustered in the chest area (roughly 8" group). Never tried a snubby, though.

[Ex-MA Hole]

I have (once) hit 10 for 10 at 25 yards and 7 for 10 at 50 with my 642.

I've only tried it once.

I was hitting an IDPA sized target, and they were all body shots (not all in the zero down zones, but body hits).

I consider myself to be a half decent shot.

[18DAI]

Back in the 70's, I watched my Father hit a metal diamond shaped target at 100 yards with his Colt Cobra, off duty gun, using the 38 "dum dum" rounds issued at the time. It was at the Police range. He was an excellent shot, and won alot of lunches with that trick. I've yet to be able to do it with any regularity with my M66 2.5". Maybe if I practice more. Regards 18DAI.

[Rangefinder]

Hitting at extended ranges with a pistol? Sure! It's just practice-practice-and more practice. I use to take my cold woodsman gopher hunting. When I got tired of popping 'em with my rifle, I'd toss it in the truck and challenge friends I could hit anything with the woodsman they could hit with their rifles (22lr open sight only). I can still make a soda can dance with it at 50-75 yds +. BUT (that's the key word--BUT) I've been firing that pistol for nigh-on 30 years and couldn't even guess-timate how many thousands of rounds I've squeezed off through it. I wouldn't even dare to make the same bet with any of my other pistols--it just isn't going to happen the same way.

[Majic]

Try 300 yards. Several of us took a couple of Model 36s and a Dick Special and had a blast shooting at the 10" steel targets on the rifle range. It was dry so you could see how to walk your shots to the target. After a couple of cylinder fulls you get an idea of the hold over (it is rather high) and surprisingly hit fairly close most of the time. Occasionally you score a hit.
Most snub revolvers and loads are capable of long range accuracy. It's the shooter that's the limiting factor.

I though that the longer the barrel (up to a point), the more time it has to stabilize the bullet.

Most handgun bullets are stabilized after the first 1" to 1 1/2" of barrel (the extra barrel length only allows velocity to generate). If they didn't then all snubs would keyhole every shot.

[tipoc]

tulsamal,
Your memory of the episode may be better than mine. If so Munden hit a roughly torso sized piece of steel with one shot at 200 yards with a snubby .38.

tipoc

[MADISON]

I had a 2 3/4 inch SS Ruger Security Six that with my .357 Magnum load of
8.0 grains of UNIQUE behind a Speer 146 grain or 158 JHP was a dead on hold at 85 yards.

[joshua]

If so Munden hit a roughly torso sized piece of steel with one shot at 200 yards with a snubby .38.

I do it almost every day no problem, yup in my dreams. josh

[stephen426]

Most handgun bullets are stabilized after the first 1" to 1 1/2" of barrel (the extra barrel length only allows velocity to generate). If they didn't then all snubs would keyhole every shot.

Interesting point! Thanks!

[ISP2605]

It's very possible. All you have to do is practice. When I was teaching there seemed to be the one blow-hard in the class who would say "I'll stand at 100 yds and let anyone shoot at me with a 2" .38". So when we hit the range I'd take my S&W 49 (2") and at 100 yds standing 2 hand put 5 rds in a silhouette target. The length of the barrel doesn't have anything to do with it other than shortening your sighting distance. That's just practice. The old FBI course of fire went back to 60 yds. Anyone who has shot metallic silhouette will be doing 200 yd shots.
Don't say it can't be done if you haven't seen it done. As far the OP saying he was aiming 5' over and the rd was dropping 20 yds short, as some of the others have said .38s don't drop that much. A head hold at 100 yds will put .38 rds in the vicinity of the torso.

[TNT]

stephen426 Believe it he can do it he has done it he has several world records including world records mainly in fast draw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0IO8yvvd-g
http://www.bob-munden.com/here is his website as well

[TNT]

on the side note my buddy took my Rough rider .22 6in. barrel and at 150yrds hit a can one time shot he tried duplicating it again later that day 100rds later but no luck it can be done but duplicating it takes skill and talent.