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Old October 7, 2006, 09:32 AM   #26
FS2K
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That makes a lot of sense to me Freedom...

But wouldn't that make the heavier, forged reciever AK's less accurate than the lighter stamped rifles? I guess not, if you take into consideration the added stiffness of the forged reciever the added rigidity would negate the added weight/mass.

I would think the heavier reciprocating mass would effect recoil more than it would the AK's design to loose accuracy. Of course this would translate into a loss of accuracy, but it would be because of human error and not the designs flaws...No? Maybe? Just trying to figure it out myself, that's all. That's why I mentioned strapping the two guns down instead of having someone shoot the guns benched. The "Human Factor" outta come into play at some point I would think.
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Old October 7, 2006, 09:39 AM   #27
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Oh...

Looks like ALL "killer" shots to me AK103K! Good Job!
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Old October 7, 2006, 10:05 AM   #28
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Thanks! Not one of them stationary, full sized, paper targets stood a chance!
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Old October 7, 2006, 03:56 PM   #29
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The gas system doesn't start working until the bullet passes by the gas port in the barrel correct??That makes me think that the bullet would leave the barrel before enough of the gas would effect the action and accuracy.maybe im wrong,I don't know.On the other hand the action needs the pressure from the bullet still being in the barrel and venting through the gas port so Im kind of puzzled on this one.I think if it does effect accuracy it is minimal because of how fast everything is taking place..I think the main thing is the 7.62x39 round,,It has little to offer in its regular wolf fmj form when it comes to accuracy(maybe loaded with a good bullet and fired through a benchrest gun?)..second I think the action being so heavy and clumsy,as well as the barrel being so thin..maybe the clunky trigger mechanism has something to do with it as well..
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Old October 7, 2006, 04:36 PM   #30
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Every AK I've owned or ever shot has had a decent trigger, even the ones with trigger slap. Most all of them were better than all but the match tuned AR triggers I've shot.

Not sure what was meant by the "action being so heavy and clumsy,as well as the barrel being so thin.." For me, most AK's are handier and more natural to shoot with than my AR's. I know its more of a personal thing, but AK's are far from clumsy.
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Old October 7, 2006, 06:55 PM   #31
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The gas system doesn't start working until the bullet passes by the gas port in the barrel correct??That makes me think that the bullet would leave the barrel before enough of the gas would effect the action and accuracy.
It's not that stuff is moving WHILE the bullet is in the barrel, it's how MUCH stuff is moving around between shots and not getting back in exactly the same position for each shot.
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Old October 7, 2006, 11:39 PM   #32
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What is all this stuff about the gas piston affecting accuracy? Every gun BUT the AR uses a gas piston.
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Old October 8, 2006, 12:16 AM   #33
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Not every gun, but you're right about the direct gas impingement system not being particularly common.

The few guns that do use it are generally considered to have better than average accuracy compared to other semi-autos.
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Old October 8, 2006, 12:43 AM   #34
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So how's a gas piston AR upper's accuracy compared to a regular one?

(And what is the deal with those? I really want to know but don't want to go to AR15.com to find out.)
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Old October 8, 2006, 12:47 PM   #35
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Ak's are more "clunky" IMO because they feel like there are a dozen heavy moving parts slamming around compared to the ar15's smooth tight feel(have you seen an ak47 internals firing in slow motion?? ).That is what I have found in the years of owning and shooting both types.And as far as the trigger,Maybe I have gotten used to my jp trigger and forgot how crappy (most, but not all) factory AR triggers are..And maybe another reason the ar15 is the most accurate semi around is also the reason the ar15 is the only non-gas piston design you see around..Maybe it comes down to the design of the ak's making it impossible to keep consistency??I don't know(and yes they have thin barrels in comparison).I love the ak's as they are,They are a very reliable weapon,But they cannot do what my ar15 can do(shoot 600+yards under M.O.A.).My ar15 may have short-comings under certain conditions but so does the ak47.My ar15's have proven far more reliable than any Ak47 I have owned or seen fired( I admit that the malfunctions I have seen were probably do to the occasional wolf ammo problem).That may be a shock to some but not to me because I have owned my AR15's for years with consistent results handloading my ammuntion as well as using wolf 55gr fmj ammo,winchester,federal,and mylasian surplus m193..I would like to know how accurate the ar15's are that have been chambered in 7.62x39???!!.That would answer my questions on the 7.62x39 cartridge itself..If the 7.62x39 is more accurate in the ar15 design than the ak47's design,, maybe that would eliminate the cartridge as possibly being the problem with accuracy.
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Old October 8, 2006, 12:53 PM   #36
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Ak's are more "clunky" IMO because they feel like there are a dozen heavy moving parts slamming around compared to the ar15's smooth tight feel(have you seen an ak47 internals firing in slow motion?? ).That is what I have found in the years of owning and shooting both types.And as far as the trigger,Maybe I have gotten used to my jp trigger and forgot how crappy (most, but not all) factory AR triggers are..And maybe another reason the ar15 is the most accurate semi around is also the reason the ar15 is the only non-gas piston design you see around..Maybe it comes down to the design of the ak's making it impossible to keep consistency??I don't know(and yes they have thin barrels in comparison).I love the ak's as they are,They are a very reliable weapon,But they cannot do what my ar15 can do(shoot 600+yards under M.O.A.).My ar15 may have short-comings under certain conditions but so does the ak47.My ar15's have proven far more reliable than any Ak47 I have owned or seen fired( I admit that the malfunctions I have seen were probably do to the occasional wolf ammo problem).That may be a shock to some but not to me because I have owned my AR15's for years with consistent results handloading my ammuntion as well as using wolf 55gr fmj ammo,winchester,federal,and mylasian surplus m193..I would like to know how accurate the ar15's are that have been chambered in 7.62x39???!!.That would answer my questions on the 7.62x39 cartridge itself..If the 7.62x39 is more accurate in the ar15 design than the ak47's design,, maybe that would eliminate the cartridge as possibly being the problem with accuracy.
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Old October 8, 2006, 01:27 PM   #37
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Sights and ammo.

With "slop" running a close third. Feed my Bulgarian milled SLR-95 rifles decent ammo, like my handloads, and 2" 5-10 round groups at 100 yards aren't too difficult to pull off. That's right there at 2 MOA, and even Uncle Sam feels that's more than adequate for the M16 coming off the line and going into issue channels. Per NATO specs, max acceptable accuracy is 4 MOA with SS109 (aka U.S. M855) ammo, 100 to 600 yards. Still plenty accurate for U.S. combat troops thumping bad guys in Ickystan.

Granted, I've seen some drunken monkey-assembled AK variants from Century that should never have left that particular facility. My own SAR-1 looks rough as a cob compared to my SLR-95, but I can still coax 2.5 MOA out of it.

User familiarity with a given system plays a big part, too. If I give a longtime AR-15 owner an AK and tell him to go play 3-Gun or any/any 100 yard scratch with it, he's going to have a rough time unless he's G. David Tubb, but he could probably win a rifle match with a slingshot.

Take no other rifles to the range for a while save for the AK, work on technique, and you have somebody like Larry Correia on THR - he runs an AK in 3-Gun matches. There is something to be said for the old adage, "Beware the man who has one rifle and knows how to use it."
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Old October 8, 2006, 04:14 PM   #38
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Maybe it comes down to the design of the ak's making it impossible to keep consistency??I don't know(and yes they have thin barrels in comparison).
I think the AK's are a lot like the FAL's when it comes to consistency, although not quite as bad. Heat seems to be the issue, and the AK's and FAL's groups do tend to open up as they get hot. I'm not sure just what your comparing the thickness of the barrel to? In comparison to what?


Quote:
They are a very reliable weapon,But they cannot do what my ar15 can do(shoot 600+yards under M.O.A.).
I dont think your going to find a rack grade AR that will shoot that well. I have four, and only one, a match grade rifle will do that, and even then, only with match grade reloads.

Personally, I look at both rifles being 300 yard guns. The AR is the better "target" rifle, there is no doubt. Yes, you can punch .22 caliber holes in things farther out, but its loosing that velocity advantage right around that 300 yard mark, and with that, much of its effectiveness. Right about the same time, the AK has pretty much passed its accuracy limits. From 300 yards in, both are still effective, and I like the 7.62x39 a little more for its punch on things the .223 can have problems with.

Quote:
My ar15's have proven far more reliable than any Ak47 I have owned or seen fired( I admit that the malfunctions I have seen were probably do to the occasional wolf ammo problem).
I bought my first AR in 1974, a Colt SP1. I still have it, and many tens of thousands of rounds later, it still shoots pretty much just like it did when I bought it.(its got a real skinny barrel too, since that seems to be an issue around here. ) In all this time, I cant ever remember it having a stoppage, although I'm sure it did at some point (thats old age creepin in, CRS sucks ya know ) I've also never had any troubles with any of my other AR's either, or any of the M16's I've shot. My Bushmaster Dissapator isnt all that accurate, but thats about it for the AR's. The AK's, other than one crappy US trigger group part breaking, and some slap on another, they work just like the AR's.

Wolf ammo has never been an issue in any of my AK's, other than the occasional round that wont fire.

Quote:
I would like to know how accurate the ar15's are that have been chambered in 7.62x39???!!.
I'd like to know that myself.


Quote:
If the 7.62x39 is more accurate in the ar15 design than the ak47's design,, maybe that would eliminate the cartridge as possibly being the problem with accuracy.
It would be interesting to see. With a good lot of ammo, I know what a Russian built and barreled receiver can do. My Saiga conversion will give most of my AR's a run for the money, and thats with a 14" barrel. If you feed the AK's decent ammo, and a lot of the Russian stuff really isnt all that bad, you will be surprised at how well they can shoot.
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Old October 8, 2006, 05:23 PM   #39
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If the 7.62x39 is more accurate in the ar15 design than the ak47's design,, maybe that would eliminate the cartridge as possibly being the problem with accuracy.
It usually is, but you've gotta understand, the folks that are accurizing 7.62x39 ARs aren't shooting Wolf or American Eagle. They're using handloads or high-qualitity hunting loads (such as they exist).

And, you can build a more accurate rifle with an AK action. The Swiss have been doing it for years.

Theoretically, the direct impingement design will always have a leg up on a rod/piston design... but the AK-47's (in)accuracy issues just aren't that simple.

Quote:
I think the AK's are a lot like the FAL's when it comes to consistency, although not quite as bad. Heat seems to be the issue, and the AK's and FAL's groups do tend to open up as they get hot. I'm not sure just what your comparing the thickness of the barrel to? In comparison to what?
Shoot VEPR-II or a bull-barreled FAL. Of course, they're a pain to lug around, but no one's asking "how do I make it easier to carry".
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Old October 8, 2006, 05:50 PM   #40
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With all things considered, the AK rifles are better than the AR's IMO. the reliability factor alone makes the AKs stellar... Accuracy, by in large, is creditted to the shooter, not the firearm. Though firearms can be more accurate than others, i would say the AK is better overall..

AKs were made to be more rugged than the AR
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Old October 8, 2006, 06:03 PM   #41
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I think best thing you can do is get a good example of both and do as Gewehr98 said, and spend a lot of quality time with each. Once you play with them until they are second nature, your going to find they are really not all that far apart.

One thing is for sure, you will soon see the AR's can be very reliable and trouble free, and the AK's can be surprisingly accurate and easy to work. You will also be way ahead of the curve on those that scream just one or the other.
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Old October 8, 2006, 10:15 PM   #42
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Spk,,That is my experience(and I don't smoke dope).Ak103k I have not got to the tens of thousands but I am in the multiple 1000's with my ar15 and running completely reliable with my handloads and everything else I have thrown at it, and also my 10.5 dpms shorty (I had) has worked perfect.My ar15 is a match grade rig with jp trigger, stainless 24" 1/8 twist bull barrel a3 upper,kns pins,8-32x burris signature,burris signature rings,arms mount.I have also shimmed the upper and lower tight!..So its not like every ar15 but most will shoot as well and sometimes much better under the right conditions(ammo included)..And it is 100% reliable so far with my 77gr smk handloads(5 shot groups sub M.O.A. @ 625yrds,yes good shooting conditions) using orlite mags(probably helps..The only condition I would give to the AK as far as reliability would be if you were shooting rapid-fire or full auto in a sand storm..Honestly I have alot more faith in my ar15's in any other conditions..I have seen more parts breakage on the ak's as well( just my experience).I still love the weapons, but they just don't have the capability the ar15 has at 300yrds and beyond.O.K.,, AK's are better on damaging vehicles,I will admit that. I don't wan't to start a debate but Everyone seems to think the ar15's are accurate(but not reliable),and the ak's are reliable(but not that accurate)..Its kind of stupid but maybe in some ways its true,, but not in my experience BUT Thankfully Im not out in the desert to prove one way or the other..I hope our soldiers have the same reliability and long range accuracy that I have had when they are in combat with the ar15,because if they do they will have a big advantage IMO.
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Old October 8, 2006, 10:57 PM   #43
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Went to the range today. Anyone wanna guess which one turned phonebooks into confetti more effectively?

Even found a naturally growing pumpkin (and shot it). Resparked my faith in the 5.56 cartridge.
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Old October 9, 2006, 09:21 AM   #44
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That's good to know.

In case I'm ever attacked by phone books or pumpkins...
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Old October 9, 2006, 09:53 AM   #45
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JohnK, thanks for the clarification....so does that mean that the Ljungman and Hakim are considered more accurate than average, being direct impingement?
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Old October 10, 2006, 11:14 AM   #46
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I'll stick my neck out and state...

That the accuracy of my AG42B Ljungman is nearly on par with that of my M96 Swedish Mauser. Just don't get your digits in the way of the bolt carrier.
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Old October 11, 2006, 04:44 AM   #47
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It'll be inaccurate when things starts melting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7zFL...elated&search=

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Old October 11, 2006, 08:00 AM   #48
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Shoot anything till the handguards melt and I think you'll have the same issue.

By the way, there are a bunch of crappy aftermarket parts out there for the AK, that include handguards without heat shields, which I believe the one shown in the video is. Take the heat shields out of your AR's handguards and shoot like that and get back to me.
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Old October 11, 2006, 03:24 PM   #49
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Have you seen any free floating handguards on AR's with heatshields though? And I've never seen any synthetic handguards that had them. (except the stock AR ones...that's it. But no poly ak grips ever have in my limited experience.)
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Old October 11, 2006, 05:46 PM   #50
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I have a free floated handguard on my one AR and it doesnt have a heat shield. Its also wide open at the front and vented at the rear, so the heat isnt trapped. Those type rifles are not generally shot in full auto or that fast to really be an issue either.

My Saiga AK103K has a heat shield in its handguard, and the other "issue" handguards I've seen have had them. Its the crappy US stuff I've seen that doesnt.

I have never seen an AR (other than the free float tubes) that didnt have a heat shield in the hand guards.
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