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Old November 20, 2006, 08:37 PM   #1
bennnn
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The art of the rifle(man)......

The art of the rifle, man,,,


I mean Rifleman.... Not to mention Riflery... I'm not that old, 31, but I was raised by guys who taught me what it really means to BE and become a Rifleman.. I'm probably going to get jumped for posting this here, and I expect it to be moved....

But I have to point out that the fact that a person owns a rifle does not make the person a Rifleman... Notice the PC language right up untill the word Rifleman....

Go ahead, make my day....

Just make mine a rifle....
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Old November 20, 2006, 08:44 PM   #2
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I see where you are going but elaborate a little on this
Quote:
what it really means to BE and become a Rifleman
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Old November 20, 2006, 08:48 PM   #3
rem33
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I have no problem with that statement if fact I whole heartily agree.

Many different riflemen too and degrees of rifleman I suppose is the way to put that.
Some guys are excellent off a bench some as smiths some as hunters some possess more than one skill and others I am sure i have missed. The guy that has bought a gun and can shoot it dose not make a rifleman, just that he is a rifle owner.

Political correctness is for people that live in a fantacy and refuse to accept the real world for what it really is, IMHO. Get over it.

Last edited by rem33; November 20, 2006 at 11:16 PM.
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Old November 20, 2006, 08:58 PM   #4
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This is going to be a friendly thread......

Get a real dictionary, look up the word RIFLERY... That's what I'm really talking about here, actually using the rifle...

I can hit the mark with a handgun, and you should too, but the rifle is where my heart comes into play....
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Old November 20, 2006, 09:38 PM   #5
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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It’s my life. I must master it, as it must master my life. My rifle without me is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless...


What? What is going to be the point of this thread? You just trying to stir up trouble?
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Old November 20, 2006, 09:51 PM   #6
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Bennn

I would be interested in what you were taught what it means to be a rifleman. I was taught to think safety, take shots that I knew would result in a clean kill and take care of my equipment. I think that would sum up just about everyones basic indoctrination. Beyond that, what would you add to the list?
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Old November 20, 2006, 09:52 PM   #7
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arkie2, you really get it buddy.... Thanks for listening...


Again, This is going to be a friendly thread... Untill someone kills it with some "trouble"...

The point of this thread is to point out that The Art of The Rifle is dying out..
And I don't mean this forum, I mean The Art.... If you have to ask,,, welll...


Ok, here,,, read about Appleseed...
http://www.rwva.org/

Maybe that will get you started...

BTW this is a friendly thread...
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Old November 21, 2006, 10:45 PM   #8
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I read it and it sounds like a great program. Anyone here participated in this? I am interested in hearing some feedback.
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Old November 21, 2006, 11:48 PM   #9
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Whatcha gettin' at here?
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Old November 21, 2006, 11:55 PM   #10
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Just read it,,The OP says it all, my next two restate it.

The actual Art of the Rifle is a dying idea. Too bad..

If I can help even one other person understand, I'll be happy..
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Old November 22, 2006, 01:35 AM   #11
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OK I can relate to this. The fact that someone owns a rifle doesn't make him a rifleman. I know of someone who owns about 3 AR-15s but cannot qualify expert half the time during qulification in the military. I hear "Give me a bench and I'll show you half moa". I know he's just blowing steam, but the fact is his ARs are topped with high power Leupolds and a bench being needed. A real rifleman is someone that can shoot his rifle accurately from field positions. josh
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Old November 22, 2006, 02:19 AM   #12
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"Rifleman" is as much about will as ability.

The willingness to take care of problems that need to be dealt with instead of defering to "appropriate authorities".



-tINY

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Old November 22, 2006, 02:49 AM   #13
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I think a lot about being a real rifleman is about witnesses with a media voice. There's prolly umpteen thousands of unsung riflemen. I think this is one of those things that, you can't declare yourself a rifleman, others must bestow that title to you. So, luck has to be involved somewhat also.

How many would call themselves a rifleman? I wouldn't. Possibly an apprentice. What would you rather have? A lone 'rifleman' backing you up or 10 avg guys, i.e., 80%'ers.
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Old November 22, 2006, 05:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
I think this is one of those things that, you can't declare yourself a rifleman, others must bestow that title to you.
Very well said Edward429451. And I would rather have both, if it came to a need.

This is a big part of what I'm trying to encourage with this thread, a good honest discussion about the art of riflery. It's a never ending process, I try to make each shot better then the last, but it does not always work out like that. I started this thread, but I'm not going to jump up on the internet and say "I'm a riflman!" I remember a while back someone here said "everyone's Rifle shoots 1 moa on the internet" And guys, ain't that the truth...
I can tell that some of the younger guys these days use the term MOA without even knowing what it means, and that's a shame.

There used to be some real heavy hitters who posted on this site, guys with years of knowledge and experiance to offer. But I think the talk of zombies and other junk, as well as the bickering that a lot of us get into, have caused some of them to move on. I value the opinions of a lot of people who post on this site, and I'm glad I have this great resource at my fingertips..

tINY, I'm really glad you brought that up BTW,
Quote:
"Rifleman" is as much about will as ability.
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Old November 22, 2006, 06:19 AM   #15
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Iv'e known many people who are considered excellent riflemen. I'd like to think that I'm one, but I haven't competed in any 3 or 4 position rifle matches.

Anyway, my definition would have to include someone who enjoys many different types of rifle shooting, from plinking to benchrest. What really separates the rifle shooters from the Riflemen (and Riflewomen) in my mind, is the ability to shoot very well OFFHAND at relatively long distances, usually without special aids like shooting jackets and slings.

My rifleman usually uses an accurate rifle, often a bolt action, often with handloaded ammunition, and can keep most centerfire shots within a 4" circle, standing without support (offhand), at 100 yards.

Your opinion may vary. What would this board be without our different opinions. A wise person once told me, "It's okay to disagree, just not to be disagreeable about it."

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Old November 22, 2006, 09:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
I try to make each shot better then the last
If you are doing that then you're doing something different each shot. Consistency is the key, right? josh
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Old November 22, 2006, 10:13 AM   #17
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Your uncle SAM offers some very good training on being a rifleman.hell he will even pay you and supply moveing targets that return live fire. so if anyone wants a finishing school on the rifle and how best to use it I highly recomend it and promise you will never look at a rifle the same way again .don't know what they are teaching now ,but I thought I was a rifleman and a great shot B4 I went in in 1971 and found out that I had a lot to learn ,and learn I did in a hurry.It is a bit rough on the nerves at the start but you get the hang of it after a while.and they even supply the ammo and rifle .
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Old November 22, 2006, 11:07 AM   #18
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I'd consider my dad a "rifleman". He spent his formative years doing 2 tours in Vietnam in the Marines w/the 3 Battalion 5th Marines, 66-67. Then spent 30 years as a police officer. He taught me how to shoot, how to deer hunt, and a lot more.

I consider myself a good shot, and a good hunter. But after growing up with a real Rifleman, I'm under no illusion that I'm in the same league. He's forgotten more than I will ever know probably. Some of my first memories of him shooting with me involve him taking my Red Ryder bb gun out of my hands and knocking down all the tin cans I had set up, shooting from the hip, having never shot that little bb gun before.

You can learn to shoot, train your mind and body, and learn all the things you need to learn to become a Rifleman, and I believe you should. Too many people do not anymore. But you will never know if you are the real deal or not until you have been baptized by fire, seen what happens when there are real Riflemen shooting back at you. Am I a Rifleman? I don't know. I like to think I might be something close, but I have no real way of knowing.
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Old November 22, 2006, 02:31 PM   #19
270Win
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I remove my previous post - this thread is extremely vague. I'm going to post a few dictionary meanings so that maybe there is a common starting point.

Webster
rifleman
1 : a soldier armed with a rifle
2 : one skilled in shooting with a rifle

Webster, again
riflery
: the practice of shooting at targets with a rifle

Wikipedia's entry - purely military.

American Heritage

Rifleman
n.
1. A soldier equipped with a rifle.
2. One who shoots a rifle skillfully.

Dictionary.com
Riflery
–noun
the art, practice, or sport of shooting at targets with rifles.



So...vague terms to begin with. My best guess is that there is a complaint that too few people are learning to be skilled in a disciplined, martial sense with their rifles?

Last edited by 270Win; November 22, 2006 at 10:11 PM.
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Old November 22, 2006, 06:05 PM   #20
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Appleseed

Ok, I'll bite.

Haven't been in here for awhile.

Someone above asked if anyone had been to an "Appleseed", as listed in Bennn's post citing www.rwva.org

Please follow that link, and enter the toolbox "Becomming a Rifleman"
or go to the forum that has a lot of discussion.

Fred, of Fred's M14 stocks, is trying to "wake America" and get those that own, out to shoot. Those that shoot, out to drill until they are "one" with the Rifle. And those that "are one" to teach others how to shoot, efficiently, from field postions, using even mil surp ammo and sticks. He'd really like to get those that don't even shoot or own a stick, out to the range and re-introduce them to our American Heritage, as displayed by common folk, those that consdired themselves citizens, not patriots, when the defended the "magazine" (powder and ball storage) at Concord when the "governer" tried to confisgate that store as a punitive measure and attempt to "control" the common man, On April 19, 1775.

The same type of action that preceeded Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, etc, etc, etc.

The same type of action that is insiduous in our own government "of the people, by the people, for the people" today.

Motivational issues aside, the "Rifleman" standard the Fred postulates is similar to the one above.

With a "factory issue stick" (not tuned or tricked out) and "surplus ammo" (not hand tuned or controlled for consistency) be able to place all shots in 4 MOA (4 inches at 100) in field positions (no bench). Extropolation of this means while practicing woodsmen skills and/or survival skills in all varieties of weather, in support of a team working toward a common goal of defense of kin and country.

I've been to one. I've taught at two. It's really nothing special (gg), just getting back to basics, and applying those basics to every shot in a methodical fashion, with the PERSISTENCE of EFFORT to succeed.

*The Riflemen controls 500 yards from his position, and is expected to make a 'stopping' shot on all man size targets in that range. The COF "mimics" the WWII Army Qualification Test: 400 meter shot from slow prone (unsupported!); 300 meters from rapidly acquired prone (like while moving and taking a shot of opportunity); 200 meters from sitting or kneeling (rear guard action covering retreating team members from cover); and 100 yards "offhand" (like stumblng upon a threat while following a trot line between "safe" zones).

A Rifleman know how to do stuff, not just with the rifle. While he is ultimately safe, respectful of life, and ethical in his shots, he also knows how to live off the land, to create field expedient shelter, to build a fire with what is in his pockets, or even better, with the blade on his belt. He can move quietly throguh the cover, many miles, and escort his charges to safety. and he, or she, prepares. His arm is always ready to 'muster' should his countrymen call upon him to defend his community.

RWVA "mission"
TO Shoot (Riflemen Standards)
TO RECRUIT (wake up other Americans to the condition of our beloved County)
To EDUCATE (teach Riiflemen skills to his team, family, community; to teach civic responsibility...)
TO COMMUNICATE (to the Citizens and to the Citizens "Representatives" that our Forefathers had it right, we respect the Constitution and its Bill of Rights, and we expect these principles to be (re)-embraced by those that SERVE US as legislators.

Perhaps too much PolySci for some, but still sound Riflemen practice for the masses.

Thanks for your interest in my opinion
Pacer

Last edited by Pacer; November 22, 2006 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old November 22, 2006, 07:18 PM   #21
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Thanks Pacer, you are one of the guys I was waiting for in this thread...

Now does everyone have a clearer picture of the purpose of this thread?
Or at least the first reason I started it? (more to come...) I'm not promoting or encouraging any type of militia related activity, or any anti government talk in this thread BTW... What I want to point out is that the Art of the Rifle is dying. I mean the real Art...

and Josh,
Quote:
If you are doing that then you're doing something different each shot. Consistency is the key, right? josh
Please reread that post, I am consistently trying to improve my skill, not doing something different every time I squeeze the trigger..

My own skill (or lack of) is not the topic of this thread, niether is yours...

Friendly thread....

Riflery.
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Old November 22, 2006, 07:54 PM   #22
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It doesn't seem like everyone here is working with the same defintion of "rifleman"...
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Old November 22, 2006, 08:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
The art of the rifle, man,,,


I mean Rifleman.... Not to mention Riflery... I'm not that old, 31, but I was raised by guys who taught me what it really means to BE and become a Rifleman.. I'm probably going to get jumped for posting this here, and I expect it to be moved....

But I have to point out that the fact that a person owns a rifle does not make the person a Rifleman... Notice the PC language right up untill the word Rifleman....

Go ahead, make my day....

Just make mine a rifle....
But Gawd I thought if I took the ole mini-14 outside the barn a-plinkerin around out there with some water bottles and targets I was the rifleman???

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Old November 22, 2006, 09:44 PM   #24
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Benn, I really don't know your definition of what a rifleman is. When I quoted you about the consistency remark I hope you didn't take that as an offensive gesture. You keep reminding us you are trying to have a friendly thread and we should be able to honor that. Now about the confusion of the definition of a "Rifleman", and I thought I can relate to this, but hey I'll go sit on the fence and see if I can learn something about being a rifleman.
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Old November 22, 2006, 10:10 PM   #25
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I'm with Pacer on the definition here.

And I agree with being "one with your rifle". You have no idea how many people I see come into the store and ask to see a rifle. Watch them throw it up to their shoulder and they say things like "Yeah, that's nice" or "Wow, handles sweet." But their body language tells me otherwise; they LOOK like they're trying to bend around this chunk of wood (or plastic) and steel, and it definitely is not "familiar" to them in any way. No matter which rifle they pick up.

For me, my "go-to" rifle will always be an AR-15. I have spent thousands of rounds and who knows how many hours getting familiar with them. I'm not military or police; I'm a Highpower shooter. And just because I'm accustomed to drilling little groups in targets slung up doesn't mean I can't hit something when I'm just given a rifle and let-loose!

If anything, it comes down to practice and proficiency. No matter who trained you and what you do, if you can pick up a rifle and start hitting 300-yard targets (and further) with a little familiarization, you're a pretty good rifleman in my book.

And I also think there's a difference between combat ability and just being a plain good shooter. I've met plenty of former military, police and former police officers who are going to be much, much better at staying alive in a fight than I ever will. But I am certainly not going to back down on survival ability (in the woods) and ability to shoot at (and hit!) things.

Edited: Actually, one of the old cops I know is a little paranoid of spending a night in the woods. I always remind him, "Around here, just walk in a straight line for 5-6 hours; you'll find something."
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Last edited by P-990; November 22, 2006 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Clarification
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