what do you think of kel-tec

psdan000 · February 16, 2007, 11:36 PM

im thinking of buying a kel-tec PF-9 9mm. looking for something inexpensive, reliable, lightweight and somewhat compact to carry. kel-tec seems to have what im looking for. my girlfriends dad has their p-11 model and he loves it. just trying to get some other opinions. thanks

Dreadnought · February 17, 2007, 12:09 AM

From what I've seen: POS. I don't have one, but friends do.

Lurch37 · February 17, 2007, 12:31 AM

This last Monday I took my concealed carry class and one of the guys there had a Kel Tec in .380. During the class we were all instructed to lay our firearms on the tables in front of us with the slide locked back to show they were unloaded. This guys Kel Tec would not or could not lock the slide back. I'm not sure if this is the way they all are or just his. Once out on the range during qualifying he had some failures. I was not in his group so I don't know exactly what the problem was so I won't speculate. It was however, very cold, as in, about the mid 20's. I did see his target and the holes were all over the place. Maybe it was the weather, maybe the guy shooting, maybe the gun. I wasn't impressed with it other than its small size. The guy did qualify and passed the class with it though.

EIGHTYDUECE · February 17, 2007, 01:48 AM

I have a P11 and it works great. Never has jammed and is very accurate.

chris in va · February 17, 2007, 03:17 AM

No problems with my P11. I hear the PF9's trigger is better. That's my only gripe about mine.

Bill DeShivs · February 17, 2007, 03:41 AM

I have 3- P32s. They work great.
I have 2 P3ATs. Haven't shot them.
I have 2 P11s. They work great.
Bill

9x19 · February 17, 2007, 04:25 AM

I only have first hand experience with the P-32, P-3AT, P-11 and P-40, but all of them have been excellent performers for me.

I think Kel-Tec is a good company, with good products and excellent factory support.

I'll be looking for a PF-9 at the next gun show...

pap1105 · February 17, 2007, 06:21 AM

i have a p32 and no problems so far . about 100 rounds of FMJ. carry it every day.

Sturmgewehre · February 17, 2007, 10:36 AM

I had a P3AT for about 300 rounds. It couldn't go two magazines without a failure of some sort. I tried all the factory .380 the store had in stock trying to find something it liked, and it never got any better. The gun also had the most vicious trigger slap of any auto loader I've owned.

I sold it to a friend who thought he could "fix" it. He sold it a couple of weeks later.

In my opinion, they are very poorly made and it's a coin toss as to if you'll get one that actually works or not.

Even if you got one that worked out of the box, given the poor quality exhibited in my pistol, I doubt the gun would survive 2,000 - 3,000 rounds.

sanson · February 17, 2007, 10:38 AM

I've handled 2 keltecs and hated both. maybe there is a good one I haven't seen

Mark B · February 17, 2007, 11:22 AM

I had a Grendel P10, the predecessor to the Keltec. That gun was such worthless piece of junk I am permanently soured on the entire line. They may have improved over time but I cannot put faith in them.

axslingerW · February 17, 2007, 11:28 AM

My P-11 has been flawless. Never a failure in the few hundred rounds I've fired through it.

edit to add: The P3at has no slide stop it is not supposed to lock back.

Bill DeShivs · February 17, 2007, 02:13 PM

Sturmgewehre
What is "trigger slap?"
I have a P11 9mm with over 5000 rounds through it. It shows no sign of unreasonable wear. Same basic design as the P3AT, except much more powerful cartridge.
Bill

CajunBass · February 17, 2007, 02:19 PM

I had a P-11 that I put about 1,500 rounds through. It jammed a couple of times when it was brand new, shooting some range reloads. With factory ammo, (WWB, American Eagle, Rem-UMC) it never bobbled. It was somewhat hard to shoot because of the long trigger pull, but after a few hundred rounds the trigger smoothed up a lot. I never tried to shoot anything past 7 yards with it, but it shot as well as I thought I could shoot it at that distance. Call it "minute of bad guy."

The only reason I don't have it now, is I saw a Smith & Wesson 39-2 I wanted, and traded the P-11 in on it.

And IIRC, the p3at, doesn't lock the slide back. The P-32 does.

smoothpull · February 17, 2007, 03:02 PM

I have two kel-tec guns the .32 and the sub-2000. Now neither are that sexy but I bought them to shoot. The .32 is a nice carry gun when you have to have something small to fit in a suit pocket and not likely to get patted down. The sub-2000 in .40 glock has been a dream to shoot. Hey at $289 for a gun that folds...yea it has a little wow factor at the range. Have put some rounds through it and really enjoyed shooting it.

marshall2 · February 17, 2007, 10:08 PM

The P11 in 9mm is the oldest and most reliable KT model. Really, it is a fine gun, but the trigger is STRONG AND LONG.

Http://www.mouseguns.com/ideal.htm

The P3AT is also excellent. The slide does NOT lock back after the last round. This is the best gun in the world for ccw in your pocket.

http://www.mouseguns.com/ideal2.htm

The PF9 is a new model, and seems to have some bugs, as I read the KT forums. I would wait a year before getting one.

KT customer service is excellent, and if you get a pistol with problems, you can rely on KT to fix it asap.

outlaw6 · February 17, 2007, 10:36 PM

I'm very happy with my P-11 and my P3AT.

The PF-9 is on my short list but I'm waiting until they get all the bugs worked out of it.

mdell2 · February 17, 2007, 11:12 PM

I have the .380 and it has been flawless. Make sure you do the break in and use good ammo. It works great. I also had the SU-16 and it was amazing. Never a problem but I have since sold it for a M-4. Kel tec's are very good.

wilson133 · February 18, 2007, 05:27 AM

The Kel-Tec guns are designed to be the smallest and lightest they can be for the given caliber, and they do that job well. The P3-AT is not a beginner's gun as it has considerable recoil for it's size and is easy to limp wrist. I wore mine out, I like to shoot my guns, and it is now visiting the factory. I fail to understand the sense of bitching about one that doesn't work when the factory will stand behind their stuff 100% and all you have to do is have it sent back to them to get it fixed for free. This is whether you bought it new or used.
My P-11 has been rock steady, whether in 9mm or .40S&W, I have a conversion kit. The trigger takes some getting used to, i.e. you have to learn how it works, but I feel safe from accidental discharges due to length of pull. I've put several thousand rounds through it and it just keeps chugging along.

Hans · February 18, 2007, 10:26 AM

Some people swear by them, some people hate them. I had a P3AT, the gun quit functioning after about 40 rounds. Got rid of it. I might be willing to try a P32, since people seem to have better success with them, but I will probably buy a Seecamp instead. Even though I don't particularly like them, though, there sure are lots of people that do, so they can't be all bad.

kristop64089 · February 18, 2007, 10:58 AM

i have had a p-11 for 5 years w/ 1500-2000 rnd thru it...b4 that it was an l.e.o. backup. no problems until now. Which has me buying a new backup while this goes to factory....trigger doesn't always reset....so some pulls will strike...some pull strait thru...had the pressed on front sight dissappear, factory sent me a neew one at no cost....and bluing has wore off slide, think while it is at factory may have them parkerize it....so all in all i'd say they are ok.

JDG · February 18, 2007, 11:07 AM

My P11 is 100% reliable, but the trigger needs getting used to. After alot of range time, I can rapid fire it, and get 11 hits on a 14"x 8" steel plate, at 21'. Not a target gun, but a great ccw tool.

Laserlips · February 18, 2007, 11:11 AM

Well, here's this old farts opinion.

First, I have two KelTec's. I have a P11 & a P32. Both have been 100% reliable, and accurate enough at self defense range. (5-7 yards).

It is my personal opinion that if you are looking for a reasonably priced, very light pistol for cc, to be carried a lot, and shot a little, a P32, P3AT, or P11 is an excellent choice. If you are planning on running thousands of rounds thru your cc firearm you should look elsewhere.

Keep in mind that the KelTecs are extremely small, light, and relatively inexpensive. By their very nature IMO they simply cannot stand up to constant use, and you fooling yourself if you think they will. I'm not saying some of them haven't lasted thru extensive use, but in general I don't think most will be able to. That's the bad news. The good news is that KelTec has a wonderful Customer Relations reputation and if you wear your KT out they'll fix it, forever, or give you a new one.. No charge.

So, IMO (actually my old fart opinion) if you want a KT for cc, buy a new one. Run a couple of hundred rounds thru it, and if it is reliable to your satisfaction, clean it, load it up, and put it in your pocket. Every few months shoot up your old mag. full of ammo, reload w/fresh stuff and you are good to go. Don't expect it to be a 10,000 rd, target pistol because it's not designed to be that, and you will probably be disappointed. Having said that, I love my two KelTecs, but they are not my first choice for personal defense if I have a better option..

Again IMO for reliablity over the long haul I think the good old S&W J-frame (or Colt D-frame) snubbys are almost unbeatable. My Airweight Bodyguard w/ Crimson Trace Lasergrips IMO will go bang, very accurately, for a long, long time. I change the battery's annually just to be cautious, but for cc and accuracy at self defense range the 638 is hard to beat.

As for the new slim KT PF-9, I would avoid it like the plague at this time. It was released with numerous bugs, and I wouldn't have one. The P11 has a history of reliability, offers more rounds and would be my choice, if I didn't already have one.

My sole complaint is that KetTec seems to use it's customers as "beta testers" on it's new model pistols. That was so with the problemmatic first series of the P3AT, and the same thing is happening all over again with the newly released PF-9. Some folks find pleasure in "fluffing and buffing" a new pistol that isn't reliable, but I'm not one of them. I want, and expect, the firearm that I might have to use in defense of my life, or that of my family, to work right... All of the time, right out of the box.

My Walthers do that. My Sig does that. In fact my two KelTec's have done that, but I've read a LOT of complaints over on www.KTOG.com, or www.KTRange.com where other folks weren't so lucky.

KelTecs are what they are. If you get a good one, carry a lot, shoot a little you are in pretty good shape. KelTecs are not junk.. But truthfully they don't have the reliability or durability of more expensive firearms. It's YOUR life, you make the call.

I prefer to carry my Walther, Sig, or J-frame all the time if I can. If I get into a circumstance where wx, wardrobe, etc. dictates a very small cc then my KT P32, (or NAA Guardian) gets the nod.

Just my old fart opinion..

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

NCHornet · February 18, 2007, 03:50 PM

I looked at the P3AT prior to buying my Sig P232 and it was really junky!! The finish on the slide looked like a poor spray paint job, the grips were rough plastic that cut into your hand. Overall the fit and finish was very poor, but what do you expect for $250. Many boast that KelTec has the best customer service and repair dept, but I would rather buy a gun that I don't have to find out about their customer service and repair devision. The Sig was the right choice for me, man what a beautiful gun!!

yomama · February 18, 2007, 04:00 PM

When I got mine, the store owner spoke with me, saying there is a reason they are only 250. Most people don't know about them yet. They listen to everyone who has never owned one, and go with a much more expensive purchase.

The secret is as he told me, this is by far one of the best concielment guns there is. Lightweight, holds 7 (.380), one in the chamber. Can go anywhere you go. Lifetime guarentee, and in addition the store I bought from tries to fix it first, then sends to Kel-tec if they can't figure it out.

The finish, who cares? It's rough and is not pretty. Some need this in a carry gun, but I don't. It's all utility, no money went into the looks.

Lastly, I know a guy who bought one just to torture it and break it. Some 7 thousand rounds later, no problems, and he's now considering carrying it.

February 16, 2007, 11:36 PM	#1
psdan000 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Amelia, Ohio Posts: 258	what do you think of kel-tec im thinking of buying a kel-tec PF-9 9mm. looking for something inexpensive, reliable, lightweight and somewhat compact to carry. kel-tec seems to have what im looking for. my girlfriends dad has their p-11 model and he loves it. just trying to get some other opinions. thanks

February 17, 2007, 12:09 AM	#2
Dreadnought Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2006 Location: Willy Posts: 320	From what I've seen: POS. I don't have one, but friends do. __________________ "NO YELLING ON THE BUS!"

February 17, 2007, 12:31 AM	#3
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 941	This last Monday I took my concealed carry class and one of the guys there had a Kel Tec in .380. During the class we were all instructed to lay our firearms on the tables in front of us with the slide locked back to show they were unloaded. This guys Kel Tec would not or could not lock the slide back. I'm not sure if this is the way they all are or just his. Once out on the range during qualifying he had some failures. I was not in his group so I don't know exactly what the problem was so I won't speculate. It was however, very cold, as in, about the mid 20's. I did see his target and the holes were all over the place. Maybe it was the weather, maybe the guy shooting, maybe the gun. I wasn't impressed with it other than its small size. The guy did qualify and passed the class with it though. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

February 17, 2007, 01:48 AM	#4
EIGHTYDUECE Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 578	I have a P11 and it works great. Never has jammed and is very accurate. __________________ "KNEES IN THE BREEZE" "Shop Smart, Shop S-Mart"- ASH

February 17, 2007, 04:25 AM	#7
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	I only have first hand experience with the P-32, P-3AT, P-11 and P-40, but all of them have been excellent performers for me. I think Kel-Tec is a good company, with good products and excellent factory support. I'll be looking for a PF-9 at the next gun show... __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

February 17, 2007, 03:17 AM	#5
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	No problems with my P11. I hear the PF9's trigger is better. That's my only gripe about mine.

February 17, 2007, 03:41 AM	#6
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,982	I have 3- P32s. They work great. I have 2 P3ATs. Haven't shot them. I have 2 P11s. They work great. Bill

February 17, 2007, 06:21 AM	#8
pap1105 Member Join Date: November 19, 2006 Posts: 46	kel tec i have a p32 and no problems so far . about 100 rounds of FMJ. carry it every day.

February 17, 2007, 10:36 AM	#9
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	I had a P3AT for about 300 rounds. It couldn't go two magazines without a failure of some sort. I tried all the factory .380 the store had in stock trying to find something it liked, and it never got any better. The gun also had the most vicious trigger slap of any auto loader I've owned. I sold it to a friend who thought he could "fix" it. He sold it a couple of weeks later. In my opinion, they are very poorly made and it's a coin toss as to if you'll get one that actually works or not. Even if you got one that worked out of the box, given the poor quality exhibited in my pistol, I doubt the gun would survive 2,000 - 3,000 rounds.

February 17, 2007, 10:38 AM	#10
sanson Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2006 Location: FL panhandle Posts: 547	I've handled 2 keltecs and hated both. maybe there is a good one I haven't seen __________________ www.sansoneservices.com

February 17, 2007, 11:22 AM	#11
Mark B Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2007 Posts: 334	I had a Grendel P10, the predecessor to the Keltec. That gun was such worthless piece of junk I am permanently soured on the entire line. They may have improved over time but I cannot put faith in them.

February 17, 2007, 11:28 AM	#12
axslingerW Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Location: St. louis Posts: 249	My P-11 has been flawless. Never a failure in the few hundred rounds I've fired through it. edit to add: The P3at has no slide stop it is not supposed to lock back.

February 17, 2007, 02:13 PM	#13
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,982	Sturmgewehre What is "trigger slap?" I have a P11 9mm with over 5000 rounds through it. It shows no sign of unreasonable wear. Same basic design as the P3AT, except much more powerful cartridge. Bill

February 17, 2007, 02:19 PM	#14
CajunBass Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia Posts: 4,767	I had a P-11 that I put about 1,500 rounds through. It jammed a couple of times when it was brand new, shooting some range reloads. With factory ammo, (WWB, American Eagle, Rem-UMC) it never bobbled. It was somewhat hard to shoot because of the long trigger pull, but after a few hundred rounds the trigger smoothed up a lot. I never tried to shoot anything past 7 yards with it, but it shot as well as I thought I could shoot it at that distance. Call it "minute of bad guy." The only reason I don't have it now, is I saw a Smith & Wesson 39-2 I wanted, and traded the P-11 in on it. And IIRC, the p3at, doesn't lock the slide back. The P-32 does. __________________ For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV)

February 17, 2007, 03:02 PM	#15
smoothpull Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Posts: 37	My experience I have two kel-tec guns the .32 and the sub-2000. Now neither are that sexy but I bought them to shoot. The .32 is a nice carry gun when you have to have something small to fit in a suit pocket and not likely to get patted down. The sub-2000 in .40 glock has been a dream to shoot. Hey at $289 for a gun that folds...yea it has a little wow factor at the range. Have put some rounds through it and really enjoyed shooting it.

February 17, 2007, 10:08 PM	#16
marshall2 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: Signal Mountain, TN Posts: 197	Kel-Tec pistols The P11 in 9mm is the oldest and most reliable KT model. Really, it is a fine gun, but the trigger is STRONG AND LONG. Http://www.mouseguns.com/ideal.htm The P3AT is also excellent. The slide does NOT lock back after the last round. This is the best gun in the world for ccw in your pocket. http://www.mouseguns.com/ideal2.htm The PF9 is a new model, and seems to have some bugs, as I read the KT forums. I would wait a year before getting one. KT customer service is excellent, and if you get a pistol with problems, you can rely on KT to fix it asap.

February 17, 2007, 10:36 PM	#17
outlaw6 Member Join Date: March 4, 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 82	I'm very happy with my P-11 and my P3AT. The PF-9 is on my short list but I'm waiting until they get all the bugs worked out of it. __________________ Rob

February 17, 2007, 11:12 PM	#18
mdell2 Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 112	Great I have the .380 and it has been flawless. Make sure you do the break in and use good ammo. It works great. I also had the SU-16 and it was amazing. Never a problem but I have since sold it for a M-4. Kel tec's are very good.

February 18, 2007, 05:27 AM	#19
wilson133 Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Posts: 194	The Kel-Tec guns are designed to be the smallest and lightest they can be for the given caliber, and they do that job well. The P3-AT is not a beginner's gun as it has considerable recoil for it's size and is easy to limp wrist. I wore mine out, I like to shoot my guns, and it is now visiting the factory. I fail to understand the sense of bitching about one that doesn't work when the factory will stand behind their stuff 100% and all you have to do is have it sent back to them to get it fixed for free. This is whether you bought it new or used. My P-11 has been rock steady, whether in 9mm or .40S&W, I have a conversion kit. The trigger takes some getting used to, i.e. you have to learn how it works, but I feel safe from accidental discharges due to length of pull. I've put several thousand rounds through it and it just keeps chugging along.

February 18, 2007, 10:26 AM	#20
Hans Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 421	Some people swear by them, some people hate them. I had a P3AT, the gun quit functioning after about 40 rounds. Got rid of it. I might be willing to try a P32, since people seem to have better success with them, but I will probably buy a Seecamp instead. Even though I don't particularly like them, though, there sure are lots of people that do, so they can't be all bad. __________________ G26, Ruger LCP Ruger 10/22, Wyndham AR-15 5.56x45 Savage 111 LWH .270 Win. Without the 2nd Amendment, none of the others would exist.

February 18, 2007, 10:58 AM	#21
kristop64089 Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2006 Location: 30 miles from Sixer Posts: 3,778	trigger problems... i have had a p-11 for 5 years w/ 1500-2000 rnd thru it...b4 that it was an l.e.o. backup. no problems until now. Which has me buying a new backup while this goes to factory....trigger doesn't always reset....so some pulls will strike...some pull strait thru...had the pressed on front sight dissappear, factory sent me a neew one at no cost....and bluing has wore off slide, think while it is at factory may have them parkerize it....so all in all i'd say they are ok.

February 18, 2007, 11:07 AM	#22
JDG Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: West Michigan Posts: 673	My P11 is 100% reliable, but the trigger needs getting used to. After alot of range time, I can rapid fire it, and get 11 hits on a 14"x 8" steel plate, at 21'. Not a target gun, but a great ccw tool.

February 18, 2007, 11:11 AM	#23
Laserlips Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 627	Well, here's this old farts opinion. First, I have two KelTec's. I have a P11 & a P32. Both have been 100% reliable, and accurate enough at self defense range. (5-7 yards). It is my personal opinion that if you are looking for a reasonably priced, very light pistol for cc, to be carried a lot, and shot a little, a P32, P3AT, or P11 is an excellent choice. If you are planning on running thousands of rounds thru your cc firearm you should look elsewhere. Keep in mind that the KelTecs are extremely small, light, and relatively inexpensive. By their very nature IMO they simply cannot stand up to constant use, and you fooling yourself if you think they will. I'm not saying some of them haven't lasted thru extensive use, but in general I don't think most will be able to. That's the bad news. The good news is that KelTec has a wonderful Customer Relations reputation and if you wear your KT out they'll fix it, forever, or give you a new one.. No charge. So, IMO (actually my old fart opinion) if you want a KT for cc, buy a new one. Run a couple of hundred rounds thru it, and if it is reliable to your satisfaction, clean it, load it up, and put it in your pocket. Every few months shoot up your old mag. full of ammo, reload w/fresh stuff and you are good to go. Don't expect it to be a 10,000 rd, target pistol because it's not designed to be that, and you will probably be disappointed. Having said that, I love my two KelTecs, but they are not my first choice for personal defense if I have a better option.. Again IMO for reliablity over the long haul I think the good old S&W J-frame (or Colt D-frame) snubbys are almost unbeatable. My Airweight Bodyguard w/ Crimson Trace Lasergrips IMO will go bang, very accurately, for a long, long time. I change the battery's annually just to be cautious, but for cc and accuracy at self defense range the 638 is hard to beat. As for the new slim KT PF-9, I would avoid it like the plague at this time. It was released with numerous bugs, and I wouldn't have one. The P11 has a history of reliability, offers more rounds and would be my choice, if I didn't already have one. My sole complaint is that KetTec seems to use it's customers as "beta testers" on it's new model pistols. That was so with the problemmatic first series of the P3AT, and the same thing is happening all over again with the newly released PF-9. Some folks find pleasure in "fluffing and buffing" a new pistol that isn't reliable, but I'm not one of them. I want, and expect, the firearm that I might have to use in defense of my life, or that of my family, to work right... All of the time, right out of the box. My Walthers do that. My Sig does that. In fact my two KelTec's have done that, but I've read a LOT of complaints over on www.KTOG.com, or www.KTRange.com where other folks weren't so lucky. KelTecs are what they are. If you get a good one, carry a lot, shoot a little you are in pretty good shape. KelTecs are not junk.. But truthfully they don't have the reliability or durability of more expensive firearms. It's YOUR life, you make the call. I prefer to carry my Walther, Sig, or J-frame all the time if I can. If I get into a circumstance where wx, wardrobe, etc. dictates a very small cc then my KT P32, (or NAA Guardian) gets the nod. Just my old fart opinion.. Best Wishes, J. Pomeroy __________________ "Laus Deo"

February 18, 2007, 03:50 PM	#24
NCHornet Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2006 Posts: 1,001	I looked at the P3AT prior to buying my Sig P232 and it was really junky!! The finish on the slide looked like a poor spray paint job, the grips were rough plastic that cut into your hand. Overall the fit and finish was very poor, but what do you expect for $250. Many boast that KelTec has the best customer service and repair dept, but I would rather buy a gun that I don't have to find out about their customer service and repair devision. The Sig was the right choice for me, man what a beautiful gun!! __________________ When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away!! Carry ON!! NCHornet

February 18, 2007, 04:00 PM	#25
yomama Junior member Join Date: February 28, 2006 Posts: 509	When I got mine, the store owner spoke with me, saying there is a reason they are only 250. Most people don't know about them yet. They listen to everyone who has never owned one, and go with a much more expensive purchase. The secret is as he told me, this is by far one of the best concielment guns there is. Lightweight, holds 7 (.380), one in the chamber. Can go anywhere you go. Lifetime guarentee, and in addition the store I bought from tries to fix it first, then sends to Kel-tec if they can't figure it out. The finish, who cares? It's rough and is not pretty. Some need this in a carry gun, but I don't. It's all utility, no money went into the looks. Lastly, I know a guy who bought one just to torture it and break it. Some 7 thousand rounds later, no problems, and he's now considering carrying it.