British sailors.

[DasBoot]

Let me start out by saying that I have never been held captive by anyone.
I have, though, had a couple of guns pointed in my direction, close up, on a few occassions in an earlier period of my life.
As a cabbie in NYC, I've been threatened with physical harm, had knives and guns brandished, etc.
That being said, I think, and I find this difficult to say, that the British captives behaved in a shameful manner.
Very disappointing.
And I'm not speaking about how they decided to allow themselves to be taken hostage without any struggle.
Seeing the overwhelming odds, and the fact that Iran is not considered an enemy at this time, I'll grant them some leeway in that decision.
I probably would've done likewise.
But where was the opposition?
They appeared more than willing to recite to prewritten acknowledgements of wrongdoing that the Iranians prepared for them.
Almost TOO willing in my view.From what I heard at the press conference after their release, they underwent "psychological" torture.
They were blindfolded.
Worse yet, put in rooms by themselves, isolated from the others, for HOURS ON END!!
I don't know man!
I'm just a regular guy, not a soldier, and I've even told one punk to go ''blank" himself when his pistol was pointed at my gut.
And this was just over money.
It had nothing to do with the honor of my uniform and country.
From what they said, they barely had a hand laid on them.
Also, and another valid reason against females in combat, they surrendered in part to protect Faye, the new mother, in their crew.
For God's sake!
Did ANYONE tell the Iranians to go to hell?
Did anyone put up a fight?
They were so pleasant during their televised readings.
Didn't our guys actually beat themselves up so their faces would look like hell when televised?
I only heard this and don't recall if it was during Nam, or the Puebla, or what.
It was some hostage incident.
There was an AP photo, showing the crew upon release, all wearing the Iranian outfits.
And every one of them had a big smile on their face, except one guy in the back, who was sort of scowling.
Who's face do you think was cut out in most other printings of that photo?
I'm sorry, but I'd like to think US personnel would've spit in the Iranian's faces and presented a completely different image to the world.
Iranian Pres. Achmadinigad(spelling?) set out to humiliate the west in the eyes of the middle east and the Brits did a wonderful job of accommadating them.
And now Tony Blair says they are pulling out of the region altogether!!
Are there no REAL men in any western government anymore????
Can you imagine Churchill accepting such treatment of Brit soldiers???
Would Mongomery have aquiesed so casually to the Iranian demands???
I think not!
How long did Carter allow our people to be held hostage?
400+ days?
What a filthy disgrace.
Here's my responce to the Iranians.
Day 1.....hostages taken.
Day 2....A) An early morning call to the Iranians.."You have 24 hrs to decide what is more important to you, your hostages, or a city for every hostage you have.
If they are not released, unharmed, within 24hrs, we will commence carpet bombing your most important cities, mosques, industries, etc.
I eagerly await your responce." click!
Day 2..B) An immediate deployment of naval might off the Iranian shore, in full combat mode.
Proceed accordingly, depending on tha return phone call.
OH! I can hear the angry voices now!
"Reckless!"
'War monger!"
"But we've got to understand them."......(Juan Carlos?)
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Have fun!



But listening to their almost gleeful reports of how they

[JuanCarlos]

Day 1.....hostages taken.
Day 2....A) An early morning call to the Iranians.."You have 24 hrs to decide what is more important to you, your hostages, or a city for every hostage you have.
If they are not released, unharmed, within 24hrs, we will commence carpet bombing your most important cities, mosques, industries, etc.
I eagerly await your responce." click!
Day 2..B) An immediate deployment of naval might off the Iranian shore, in full combat mode.
Proceed accordingly, depending on tha return phone call.

Wow. You know, I don't care if you "understand" them, but look at the likely outcome of this reaction. Hostages dead, nation at war. A war that would be especially foolish in the current scenario, considering the state our military forces are in.

Then look at Blair's response. Hostages returned, unharmed. No unnecessary war. Iran got some new fluff propaganda pieces to use, but then they've never had a shortage of propaganda anyway.

I know which I'd choose. Though yeah, I'd probably be sending in the troops long before the 400th day.


As for the behavior of the troops, I was thinking the same. I actually asked some British ex-military if they even had anything resembling our "Code of Conduct," and supposedly they do. These personnel certainly didn't follow it.

They were blindfolded.
Worse yet, put in rooms by themselves, isolated from the others, for HOURS ON END!!

They were also lined up against a wall, hooded, to listen to the cocking of weapons as if they were going to be executed. They were also threatened with trials and lengthy prison sentences (which could well have amounted to death sentences) if they didn't cooperate. Still doesn't excuse their behavior, but let's not understate the case.

As was mentioned in an article I read, these personnel weren't in a specialty (such a pilots, for instance) where they receive any sort of counter-interrogation or resistance training. Personally I'd like to think I'd have done a better job holding out, but having never been in their situation I try not to pass judgement on them. It's over now, the damage was minimal, and I'm guessing they're hearing (or will soon) all about this from their superiors.

Also, not to minimize any experiences you've had but I think the Iranians are a little scarier than the average street punk.

[DasBoot]

Of course, I can only respond knowing myself and my personality.

They were also lined up against a wall, hooded, to listen to the cocking of weapons as if they were going to be executed.

That bluff would get a bit old after the first couple of minutes.

They were also threatened with trials and lengthy prison sentences (which could well have amounted to death sentences) if they didn't cooperate.

Mere words and threats aren't going to make me disgrace my uniform/country.
Jeez! Didn't you serve?
Would the threat of a trial bring you to your knees?

Also, not to minimize any experiences you've had but I think the Iranians are a little scarier than the average street punk

Spend much time in NYC?
I won't go into detail, but it's happened on more than one occassion with some VERY scary individuals.
Anytime you're a trigger pull from possible death, it matters not if your antagonist is an army or a single individual.
The fear, and your responce to it, reveal something about yourself.

[JuanCarlos]

Mere words and threats aren't going to make me disgrace my uniform/country.
Jeez! Didn't you serve?
Would the threat of a trial bring you to your knees?

Did you not read my entire post? I'd certainly hope the threat of a trial wouldn't get me to make statements against my country. And yeah, I'd think after the first "we're going to cock our weapons and kill the infidel trespassers" bit you'd start to realize that they're not going to kill you, both because A) if they were going to, they'd already have and B) doing so would lead to an explosive growth in the Iranian Rubble market.

But still, I've not been held by Iran before, and perhaps logic goes out the window in such cases. Hence the reason I simply try not to judge too harshly.

Spend much time in NYC?
I won't go into detail, but it's happened on more than one occassion with some VERY scary individuals.

Yeah, scary individuals. But what they could do to you was pretty limited. Yeah, they could shoot you and kill you. That would suck. But they're probably not going to peel off strips of your skin first, maybe electrocute your nether regions, shove nails under your fingernails, or [insert torture method here] first.

Yes, there are scary people in the big, bad city. I've been around LA, and found myself lost in what was probably one of the more "interesting" neighborhoods in DC. I'd still think being held by a country like Iran, whose motives and sanity as a nation are questionable, presents a lot more frightening possibilities than just about any criminal on the street...especially the ones who just want my cash.

Put simply, getting stuck-up in NYC and getting held hostage by the Iranians are two totally different things, and not worth comparison. Apples and Chevrolets, man.

[DasBoot]

Put simply, getting stuck-up in NYC and getting held hostage by the Iranians are two totally different things, and not worth comparison. Apples and Chevrolets, man.

Are YOU trying to tell ME how much MORE frightened YOU think I would be in either situation?

But they're probably not going to peel off strips of your skin first, maybe electrocute your nether regions, shove nails under your fingernails, or [insert torture method here] first.

None of this was even hinted at by their captives.
Guns were cocked and possibly pointed at them.
Same in my case.
Under THOSE circumstances, I would have acted as I did.

But what they could do to you was pretty limited.

You're pretty naive man!
Anything that can be done to you in an Iranian cell can be done in the basement of a South Bronx
tenement also.
Crackheads can be rather inventive too!
Now you're gonna find exception with THAT statement too?

I'm not getting involved with your contrary crap JC.
Have your petty arguements with someone else.

[applesanity]

I don't how to feel about the surrendering issue. In hindsight, I suppose it was okay because nobody got really hurt in the end.


But seriously, I thought the convention is that if you're a POW, all you say is name, rank and serial number, right? Jesus christ, those soldiers were singing like the cast of American Idol. I was half expecting one of them to offer the Iranian president a shoe polishing.

[DasBoot]

Jesus christ, those soldiers were singing like the cast of American Idol.

That seems to be the general consensus.
They appeared to be more than a bit obliging.
There was NO tangible torture!
Just sounds, threats and isolation.If some of them ARE missing some toenails, than I'll change my opinion.

[JuanCarlos]

...those soldiers were singing like the cast of American Idol.

Heck, American Idol had nothing on them.

While it may seem I'm "defending" their actions make no mistake...I found their conduct sorely disappointing.

I'm not getting involved with your contrary crap JC.
Have your petty arguements with someone else.

So trying to talk about the issue other than to say "yeah!" or "darn right!" is just contrary crap?

Seriously, if you're not interested in two-way discussions, why not just go start a blog?

[DasBoot]

So trying to talk about the issue other than to say "yeah!" or "darn right!" is just contrary crap?

There's that.
But mostly because..

So yeah, I'm a liberal politically correct idiot

[joab]

I'm sorry, but I'd like to think US personnel would've spit in the Iranian's faces and presented a completely different image to the world.

At least one of our guys would have sung the song about putting a boot up their ass. And one would have dropped to her knees and prayed, that's the one the media would have made a hero.

these personnel weren't in a specialty

It was a one of our mechanics that sand the boot in the ass song to the Iraqis

That bluff would get a bit old after the first couple of minutes.

Only because you have never had it done to you, that click sounds like thunder

I can't totally disrespect these men because I have never been in that particular situation.
But I do know that my non specialty training taught us to resist as long as you have the ,means to resist.
And being scared was not adequate justification for consorting with the enemy

There was a excellent old movie starring Paul Newman and Lee Marvin dealing with this exact subject
Ten bucks say AMC plays it within a month

[DasBoot]

And one would have dropped to her knees and prayed, that's the one the media would have made a hero.

Well said!

It was a one of our mechanics that sand the boot in the ass song to the Iraqis

I'm not familiar with this incident.

Only because you have never had it done to you, that click sounds like thunder

I'm sure it does....but it's STILL just a sound.

And being scared was not adequate justification for consorting with the enemy

Again....well said.

There was a excellent old movie starring Paul Newman and Lee Marvin dealing with this exact subject

Do you recall the name?
2 of my favorite actors.

[badbob]

What if the British servicemen were in Iranian waters?

badbob

[sanson]

remember when iran took our people out of the embassy and held them for over a year? we did nothing with our sophisticated weaponry. nothing has changed, we can't stomach a fight anymore. the book "Flags of our fathers" should be required reading in history classes all over our great nation.

[DasBoot]

What if the British servicemen were in Iranian waters?

GPS readings already prove they were not.

[Let it Bleed]

I recall a failed covert military action to free the American hostages. I was just a child in '79 but I am certain there was an attempt at a rescue.

[badbob]

The BBC reported this Monday. Who knows. "Her side, his side, and the truth", as they say in divorce court.
Link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6517075.stm

Last Updated: Monday, 2 April 2007, 12:32 GMT 13:32 UK
Seized crew 'all admit trespass'


Capt Chris Air was among the captives shown in front of a chart of the northern Gulf

The new footage
The 15 Britons held by Iran accept they were picked up in its waters despite the UK's insistence they were in Iraqi territory, Iranian state radio says.
It reported film of all the Royal Navy personnel giving details existed but would not be broadcast on TV because of "positive changes" in the UK's stance.

Later, previously unseen images of some of the crew were aired but their voices could not be heard.

The prime minister's spokesman said Iran needs to show "where it stands".

According to Iran's ISNA news agency further footage of all the crew "explaining details about their arrest in Iranian waters" would not be aired because of "changes seen in the last two days in the clamorous British government policies".

The film shown later on state-run Al-Alam satellite television cuts quickly between several of the men and includes footage of a group of three by a map.

The prime minister's spokesman said there was "a lot going on behind the scenes".

"What happens next depends on the Iranian response," he added.


UK VERSION OF EVENTS
1 Crew boards merchant ship 1.7NM inside Iraqi waters
2 HMS Cornwall was south-east of this, and inside Iraqi waters
3 Iran tells UK that merchant ship was at a different point, still within Iraqi waters
4 After UK points this out, Iran provides alternative position, now within Iranian waters

The Foreign Office said it stood by its view the crew had been detained against their will in Iraqi territory.

"We have not had consular access, we have made it quite clear they were seized in Iraqi waters, and we want them released," a spokesman said.

At the weekend, Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett said a diplomatic note had been sent to the Iranians.

Defence Secretary Des Browne has confirmed the government was in "bilateral" communication with Iran over the personnel seized in the northern Gulf on 23 March.

It is understood that one area under discussion is how future disputes over the contested waters may be avoided.

BBC world affairs correspondent Emily Buchanan said the UK's "tough stance" had seen it take the issue to the United Nations but there were indications diplomats had become more wary of upsetting negotiations.

Student protests

Four crew members have so far been seen on the Al-Alam satellite television channel saying they had entered Iran's waters.


IRANIAN VERSION OF EVENTS
1 Royal Navy crew stray 0.5km inside Iranian waters
2 Iran gives set of co-ordinates to back up their claims
3 According to seized GPS equipment, the Royal Navy crew had previously entered Iranian waters at several other points
4 Iran informs Britain of the position where the crew were seized, inside Iranian waters

Both versions in more detail

The Foreign Office has said showing the group on TV is "unacceptable" and it had "grave concerns" over the circumstances under which any statements were made.

The first footage showed Leading Seaman Faye Turney and Nathan Summers speaking.

On Sunday, Royal Marine Capt Chris Air and Lt Felix Carman were seen explaining the incident.

The seven British sailors and eight marines, based on HMS Cornwall, were seized by Revolutionary Guards as they returned from searching a vessel.

On Sunday, Iranian students threw stones and firecrackers at the British embassy in the capital Tehran in protest against what they said was the "illegal entry" into their waters by the UK personnel.

badbob

[wingman]

I believe it was Adm. Stockdale while prisoner in North Vietnam beat himself in
the head with a chair prior to his captors parading him on tv if I remember
correct he was bruised so bad they did not put him on camera.

Name, rank, serial number. God bless true warriors !

[DasBoot]

Her side, his side, and the truth

I don't know about you, but in such a case, I'm inclined to give the benefit of thre doubt to the one that has a track record of honesty and integrity.
I'll go with the Brits on this until the Iranians can PROVE otherwise.

[ConcealCarryNY]

There was a failed attempt if you get bored there was a book written about it its called "The Guts to Try" IIRC it was written by one of the Airforce C-130 guys. Really good read tho it tends to blame the USMC Pilots and crew for all that went wrong. Typical Airforce

I think the major problem here is that the British military may need to reevaluate how they train thier troops to deal with POW situation. The US military has an excellent training program called SERE (no its not like the crap they showed on G.I. Jane) I beleive the reason that the US started this program (if my military lore is correct) was that during the Post Korean war alot of stuff came out about how POW's were not prepared for the enviroment and treatment they were exposed to. The solution was to make all pilots and aircrew (and eventually personnel that were at a higher risk of being captured ie SF types) attend a very realistic and rigorous Survival Evasion Resistance Escape course. I think the british need to remember that training dictates how one acts in combat.

[JuanCarlos]

I think the major problem here is that the British military may need to reevaluate how they train thier troops to deal with POW situation. The US military has an excellent training program called SERE (no its not like the crap they showed on G.I. Jane) I beleive the reason that the US started this program (if my military lore is correct) was that during the Post Korean war alot of stuff came out about how POW's were not prepared for the enviroment and treatment they were exposed to. The solution was to make all pilots and aircrew (and eventually personnel that were at a higher risk of being captured ie SF types) attend a very realistic and rigorous Survival Evasion Resistance Escape course. I think the british need to remember that training dictates how one acts in combat.

The problem is that these sailors weren't in a specialty that would warrant SERE training...the Brits do, I believe have a similar program. But as you said, it's limited to personnel that are at an above-average risk of capture. If the Iranians hadn't had the balls to basically abduct these sailors in international waters their chances of being "captured" were virtually nil.

EDIT: And being in non-high risk MOS's in the US military (formerly a tank crewmember, currently signalman) I can tell you that the extent of my "training" as far as resisting such interrogation has been being told the Code of Conduct. It's not like I've had any special training to help ensure I adhere to it. The number of soldiers in the US military with such training is pretty small, too.

[randersonabq]

It seems strange to me that among a 15 person boarding team there was a Royal Navy LCDR and LT and a Royal Marine Captain.
Does the USN use that much horsepower?

[Haterade]

I'm not sure I can even begin to tactfully voice my opinion on this matter.

I guess what it boils down to is that I'm really disappointed.

I always thought the Brits were similar to us. I was in the military, I even trained with their Marines at one time. They were proud and confident. I don't know what their laws are... I know what OURS are. So, until I actually find and read every law and go through their training to hear the expectations, I guess I shouldn't comment.

I can comment on military discipline though. I assume that is universal. I know that if I WENT BACK TO MY UNIT, after 2 WEEKS, WITH NO VISIBLE MARKINGS and no other psychological torture besides BEING BLINDFOLDED and HAVING GUNS COCKED NEXT TO ME at a mock execution... my unit would shun me. Add in that they did all these photo ops and even as they left, they waved nicely and thanked Iran for their hospitality. AS A UNIT! I've never been held hostage, so I obviously have no first-hand knowledge, but this sure seems fishy... maybe if they were water-boarded or blasted with electricity, but they weren't. They were threatened with a trial and they caved.

Hell, given their situation I would probably BEG for the Iranians to at least break my nose or shine my eye so I could at least hold my head somewhat high back home. If they didn't do it, I would do it to myself and I damn sure wouldn't be the guy waving and laughing on the trip home.

The British military is probably collectively 10000x more mad than I am. I still think they are pro's, but the rest of the world has good reason to belive otherwise. Unbelievable.

On a side note: Stick a fork in the UK - they are DONE.

[RedneckFur]

I've never been in this situation.. but If I were, I'm sure I'd be scared crapless. Do think the british soldiers could have resisted harder? Sure. Am i angry at them for not doing it? Not at all.

If saying some silly testimony on film that everyone knows is only propaganda helps to keep me in one peice and out of harm's way, Id do it and wouldnt think twice.

Its one thing to keep silent when you have information that could cost others their lives, or cause phyisical harm to fellow soldiers... But refusing at the point of possible exacution or torture to read a pre written speach?

A stubborn dead man is still a dead man. You cant blame somone for wanting to live.

[RangerVA]

R.I.P. UK

Keep your powder dry folks

[applesanity]

The problem is that these sailors weren't in a specialty that would warrant SERE training.

Okay, no. I'm a freaking civilian and even I know it's just name, rank, and serial number. Yeah, I'll probably be singing too if I had wood splinters shoved up my finger nails, or cigarettes put out on my skin, or forced starvation/ dehydration. But they came home with their fingernails. We saw them eat and drink and smoke for the TV's, not at all looking like they were under duress. Their upper lips had the stiffness of microwaved mayonaise, what with all the verbal cooperation they were doing.

I'm sured they were scared. I'd probably be even more scared. But above all, I know that I could bet my life on the fact that I'd be coming home mostly together.

We all knew from the start that this was all one big PR stunt to show that Iran can flex its muscles and call one hell of a bluff. Those POWs have got to know that they would be safe. The Iranians wouldn't dare kill off one of those guys.

I'm sorry, but given the kind of relationship the US and the UK have, and given Bush's proactive, gung-ho, cowboy, shoot-from-the-hip attitude, (while up for debate), killing a PoW and waiting for a reaction is definitely one bluff I would not call.

Bush doesn't bluff. He throws a fast one past Congress, the UN, and the American public, and sends in the Marines. And the Army. And the Navy. And the Air Force. Bush's Posse.

Like I said before, I'm glad they're all safe. And I'm glad nobody died. But seriously....

On a side note, when PlayboyPenguin comes for a visit to bash Bush, I hope he can reconcile the fact that he thinks Bush is simultaneously, the worst, most stupid president ever, while still managing to slip so many things past the congress, most of America, and still hold an office. Bush is either dumb or ruthlessly cunning, but he can't be both.