Just got back from the Illinois Appleseed… (long with pics)

iamkris · June 4, 2007, 06:33 PM

…and I didn’t shoot Rifleman but I did learn a lot.

I won’t spend a lot of time going over the Appleseed concept http://rwva.blogspot.com/ (that’s what the Search function is for) but I will say it does align well with what I think of rifle shooting. I’ve really come to be fond of the concept of controlling a 500 yard radius with iron sights And aimed, rapid fire, but where I shoot (northern Illinois) I’m pretty much limited to shooting off a bench and one-cartridge-in-the-magazine at a time. Unfortunately, this trend tends to breed a whole generation of “shooters” that get their AK, slap a bipod and scope on it and proceed to shoot 6” groups off a bench. While I know high power competition is a great teacher, I’ve never found the time to get in that sport. So, the Appleseed course seemed like it was tailor-made to what I am looking for.

Here’s a rundown of what we did. The school was held at Darnall’s Range outside of Bloomington, IL. http://www.darnalls.com/ The folks there were very accommodating, allowed camping and served some very hearty lunches. Weather was not too bad…high 70’s/low 80’s, rain showers on and off, hot sun when the clouds broke, a bit humid. The course went like this:

Saturday – Start with registration and range safety/rifle grounding brief from the instructors. April 19, 1775 history lesson from Fred (one of many…the man CAN tell a story). Down to the range and learn proper prone position and 6-steps to firing. Fire several 1-inch sighter targets and ball n’ dummy to check zero and technique. Fire “Redcoat” target to check prone. Learn proper sitting and standing positions with firing in between. Fire first Quick n Dirty AQT (QDAQT). Lunch. Rest of afternoon alternating qual AQT and QDAQT to reinforce techniques in all positions. End day with Redcoat and QDAQT. Another history lesson. Total round count ~ 120

Sunday – Start with history lesson. Down to range and fire a QDAQT. Drill technique. Add 3-man team drills focusing on high-stress rapid fire – these were great…run 50 yards to line, sling up, drop to prone, load and fire 10 rounds all into single target, all in 60 seconds. Object was most number of hits to 1” star. My team won…reward was first in line to lunch. More ball ‘n dummy and qual AQT then QDAQT. Finally we shot a “volley fire” Redcoat (shoot all in unison on command for AQT score…tougher than it sounds). End with history lesson. Total round count ~ 170

AQT course of fire:
25 m range -- 100, 200, 300, 400 m simulated targets as you work your way down
100: standing -- 10 rounds
200: sitting -- 2 round/3 round with a mag change on target 1, 5 rounds on target 2
300: prone -- rapid fire 2 rounds, mag change, 1 round on target 1, 3 rounds on target 2, 4 rounds on target 3
400: slow fire prone -- 2 rounds on target 1, mag change, 2 rounds on target 2, 3 rounds on target 3, 3 rounds on target 4

Here’s what I learned:

Self Awareness – I thought I was an OK rifle shot (I’m an NRA Rifle Instructor) but I really didn’t know how I’d do from the positions with a high rate of aimed fire. I’m definitely not the best, and thankfully not the worst.
Learning New Stuff is Hard – I started out great during the sighters but, by the end of day 1, I was very discouraged. I barely shot Marksman (>125 points) on the first QDAQT and thought all was lost. Day 2, however, showed steady improvement in scores. I never shot Rifleman (210 points) but I improved by over 50%.
Little Things Matter – I finally feel comfortable using slings. NPOA is outrageously important. “Dragging wood” (trigger finger laying on stock during squeeze) will throw shots. Adjusting elevation and windage with muscles doesn’t work for long. Cadence works (firing every 2-3 seconds instead of waiting for the perfect shot “magically” seems to actually improve your scores – my best shooting was during the 60 second-running-3-man-team drills).
Equipment is Important – I’m not advocating getting all mall ninja’d up. We had a few of those guys show up…they didn’t shoot so good. Good sights, good trigger, good mags, decent ammo, knee pads, a shooting coat, a decent shooting mat will go a long way to making your day easier and let you focus on shooting. This doesn’t mean you need a $2500 rifle. It does mean that taking as many “excuses” out will let you focus on fundamentals.
Don’t Drink Lots of Coffee Before Shooting – my Venti Starbucks Dark Roast right before the first AQT of Day 2 made my legs shake so bad I couldn’t finish the standing stage.
Shooters Are Nice People – we had all kinds. White collar, blue collar. Rich, not so rich. Urban, rural. Several ethnicities. Mostly M1As, but also some Garands, an FAL, a CETME, several ARs, a 03A3, a Mauser, an AK, a bunch of .22’s. By the end of the 2 days there was a lot of camaraderie, story swapping, and genuine well-intentioned, mutual coaching. I traded business cards with several guys.

A really good program. I’ll go again. They struck a nice balance in teaching and practical exercises as well as firm instruction without being too “drill sergeant”. Here’s a few pics…I was shooting and learning so much, I didn’t have time to take more.

My first sighters compared to the guy next to me (which was fairly typical)…I started getting cocky at this point. Stupid.

Here’s one of the instructors showing us prone

Compared to me…hmmm, he looked better.

Looking up the firing line

Ball n’ dummy coaching

iamkris · June 4, 2007, 06:35 PM

Standing (sitting was too painful so I didn’t have time to get the camera out)

First Redcoat target from day 1 compared to last one on Day 2

First QDAQT (sucky)

Midway through 2nd day

Last qual and Volley Redcoat

Again, I highly recommend going. You’ll probably learn a lot.

knzn · June 4, 2007, 07:09 PM

Thanks for your report/review on your outing. I would love to go to one if they ever have one around here. (Kansas)

iamkris · June 5, 2007, 08:17 AM

I've received a few messages stating that shooting at simulated 400 m targets at 25 m is a waste of time and ammo. That actually shooting at 200-500 m is very different than simulated because of wind, mirage, etc.

I agree that those factors are serious elements that we need to understand to effectively shoot long range. The problem with the opinion that 25m simulated targets is that for most shooters, IMHO, is that as proven by many writeups of Appleseeds, and now my own experiences, THE VAST, OVERWHELMING, SUPER MAJORITY OF PEOPLE CAN'T SHOOT WORTH CRAP.

It seems that if you can clean the 25 m AQT first time, every time, from all positions, then it is better to shoot at distance. Thing is....most people don't. We had less than 5 people out of about 60 do it the entire weekend. And this wasn't a class of 60 new shooters. I'd say 80% were just like the majority on this board. Been shooting for years, have gun rooms that would make any liberal stain their shorts, go to the range on a fairly regular basis. Several had been to an Appleseed in the past. Many had military training. One was the State Police chief Instructor. None shot Rifleman.

Until then, it seems kind of pointless to introduce mirage, wind, spin of the earth, etc that shooting at distance entails.

Dirty_Harry · June 5, 2007, 08:30 AM

I like the choice of rifles at that camp

Dirty_Harry · June 5, 2007, 08:43 AM

That looks interesting, I wish I could go....how much does that cost?

iamkris · June 5, 2007, 08:49 AM

$70 for a 2-day course. Best $70 you'll spend on your rifle.

Grin Reaper · June 5, 2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

I would love to go to one if they ever have one around here. (Kansas)

Here's the deal: You find a place, We will help get it set up at your location.
A formal shooting range is good, but some rural property (needs to be in an area with no close neighbors or some REALLY understanding ones) with a tall berm (>8feet tall, 10 feet is better) and a firing line at least 25m away, long enough to allow for about 3-4 feet width per shooter. If there's an area that allows for shooting at distances 100yds or more, even better.

pm me if I can help with this (all the way from Georgia).

Quote:

I've received a few messages stating that shooting at simulated 400 m targets at 25 m is a waste of time and ammo. That actually shooting at 200-500 m is very different than simulated because of wind, mirage, etc.

Yeah, I've encountered these nay-sayers, too. I'm happy to g to the range with them and prove them wrong.
Folks, here's the deal: If you want to shoot a man-sized target (the US Military uses a standard of 20"x20" wide to define 'man-sized' -- I assume they're talking about a thick guy's torso) at 500yards, you must first be able to shoot a 1" target at 25 yards. Why?
20" at 500 yards is equiv. to 1" at 25 yards, and to 4" at 100yards -- because a 4 minute-of-angle group is a 4 moa group, no matter how far way you put it.
Yes, wind can affect your shot. Heavy wind at really long ranges can really affect your shot heavily -- duh!
BUT the vast majority of us do not have access to 500 yard ranges, it's a sad fact of modern life. Practice/training at reduced targets at reduced ranges DOES prepare you for shooting at long-distance. I'm living proof, and there are a lot more like me.

Most of these detractors seem to spend WAY more time on the keyboard than on the range, and too much range-time shooting from (yuck!) a bench-rest.

Quote:

$70 for a 2-day course. Best $70 you'll spend on your rifle.

Why so low? Because RWVA is a non-profit organization. We are out to save America by getting Americans involved in shooting again, and then involved in gettin your congress-critters to do the Right Thing, by protecting your rights.

BTW, I'm an RWVA instructor, and will be hosting the November Toccoa GA Appleseed. Hope so see some of you there.
Here's a link to upcoming shoots in 2007 : http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php?topic=1385.0

DouglasW · June 5, 2007, 03:54 PM

Thank you for putting in the time and effort to post this report. I just learned about Appleseed this year, and definitely hope to attend one of their clinics in 2008.

Grin Reaper · June 30, 2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

It seems that if you can clean the 25 m AQT first time, every time, from all positions, then it is better to shoot at distance. Thing is....most people don't.

Hence, the Texas Challenge: if anyone is so confident that they don't need to practice shooting at 25m to improve their marksmanship, all they have to do is 1) sign up to attend an Appleseed Shoot and 2) lay down $50 that says you can shoot a Rifleman's score (210 or better on the QDAQT -- the target with all the black silhouettes on it) on the first attempt.
If you can do that, you get your $50 back AND shoot for free at the Appleseed for 2 days.

[Since its inception last year, no one has taken the Texas Challenge].

lfmayor · July 10, 2007, 06:54 PM

I went to this event too and thought I'd walk the dog, especially at 25 yards. I'd read Fred's articles in SG news and for the most part thought his lines were just a sales gimmic.

Then I got to eat two days worth of humble pie and I learned that my years of shooting had all been done... incorrectly. I had originally only signed for one day, but ended up going back for the second and did finally qualify marksman, the lowest usable form of life,

. My buddy who was signed up to go ended up having to miss out, which happily saved my ego from utter deflation.

So if you're all that and a bag of chips, you've got no reason to worry, go anyways... at the very worst you'll be the duke of cool and meet a group of nice people and teach some of us poorer specimens some tips. At best you'll learn a lot, if you can bear the shame, and still get to meet that group of nice people.

When I told Fred (on day 2) I had originally thought he was full of it he asked me what I'd learned. I said "some new stuff about shooting" and he busted out laughing. He and the other instructors were great guys, top notch and I'm looking forward to the next event that's close enough for me to go.

June 4, 2007, 06:33 PM	#1
iamkris Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 256	Just got back from the Illinois Appleseed… (long with pics) …and I didn’t shoot Rifleman but I did learn a lot. I won’t spend a lot of time going over the Appleseed concept http://rwva.blogspot.com/ (that’s what the Search function is for) but I will say it does align well with what I think of rifle shooting. I’ve really come to be fond of the concept of controlling a 500 yard radius with iron sights And aimed, rapid fire, but where I shoot (northern Illinois) I’m pretty much limited to shooting off a bench and one-cartridge-in-the-magazine at a time. Unfortunately, this trend tends to breed a whole generation of “shooters” that get their AK, slap a bipod and scope on it and proceed to shoot 6” groups off a bench. While I know high power competition is a great teacher, I’ve never found the time to get in that sport. So, the Appleseed course seemed like it was tailor-made to what I am looking for. Here’s a rundown of what we did. The school was held at Darnall’s Range outside of Bloomington, IL. http://www.darnalls.com/ The folks there were very accommodating, allowed camping and served some very hearty lunches. Weather was not too bad…high 70’s/low 80’s, rain showers on and off, hot sun when the clouds broke, a bit humid. The course went like this: Saturday – Start with registration and range safety/rifle grounding brief from the instructors. April 19, 1775 history lesson from Fred (one of many…the man CAN tell a story). Down to the range and learn proper prone position and 6-steps to firing. Fire several 1-inch sighter targets and ball n’ dummy to check zero and technique. Fire “Redcoat” target to check prone. Learn proper sitting and standing positions with firing in between. Fire first Quick n Dirty AQT (QDAQT). Lunch. Rest of afternoon alternating qual AQT and QDAQT to reinforce techniques in all positions. End day with Redcoat and QDAQT. Another history lesson. Total round count ~ 120 Sunday – Start with history lesson. Down to range and fire a QDAQT. Drill technique. Add 3-man team drills focusing on high-stress rapid fire – these were great…run 50 yards to line, sling up, drop to prone, load and fire 10 rounds all into single target, all in 60 seconds. Object was most number of hits to 1” star. My team won…reward was first in line to lunch. More ball ‘n dummy and qual AQT then QDAQT. Finally we shot a “volley fire” Redcoat (shoot all in unison on command for AQT score…tougher than it sounds). End with history lesson. Total round count ~ 170 AQT course of fire: 25 m range -- 100, 200, 300, 400 m simulated targets as you work your way down 100: standing -- 10 rounds 200: sitting -- 2 round/3 round with a mag change on target 1, 5 rounds on target 2 300: prone -- rapid fire 2 rounds, mag change, 1 round on target 1, 3 rounds on target 2, 4 rounds on target 3 400: slow fire prone -- 2 rounds on target 1, mag change, 2 rounds on target 2, 3 rounds on target 3, 3 rounds on target 4 Here’s what I learned: Self Awareness – I thought I was an OK rifle shot (I’m an NRA Rifle Instructor) but I really didn’t know how I’d do from the positions with a high rate of aimed fire. I’m definitely not the best, and thankfully not the worst. Learning New Stuff is Hard – I started out great during the sighters but, by the end of day 1, I was very discouraged. I barely shot Marksman (>125 points) on the first QDAQT and thought all was lost. Day 2, however, showed steady improvement in scores. I never shot Rifleman (210 points) but I improved by over 50%. Little Things Matter – I finally feel comfortable using slings. NPOA is outrageously important. “Dragging wood” (trigger finger laying on stock during squeeze) will throw shots. Adjusting elevation and windage with muscles doesn’t work for long. Cadence works (firing every 2-3 seconds instead of waiting for the perfect shot “magically” seems to actually improve your scores – my best shooting was during the 60 second-running-3-man-team drills). Equipment is Important – I’m not advocating getting all mall ninja’d up. We had a few of those guys show up…they didn’t shoot so good. Good sights, good trigger, good mags, decent ammo, knee pads, a shooting coat, a decent shooting mat will go a long way to making your day easier and let you focus on shooting. This doesn’t mean you need a $2500 rifle. It does mean that taking as many “excuses” out will let you focus on fundamentals. Don’t Drink Lots of Coffee Before Shooting – my Venti Starbucks Dark Roast right before the first AQT of Day 2 made my legs shake so bad I couldn’t finish the standing stage. Shooters Are Nice People – we had all kinds. White collar, blue collar. Rich, not so rich. Urban, rural. Several ethnicities. Mostly M1As, but also some Garands, an FAL, a CETME, several ARs, a 03A3, a Mauser, an AK, a bunch of .22’s. By the end of the 2 days there was a lot of camaraderie, story swapping, and genuine well-intentioned, mutual coaching. I traded business cards with several guys. A really good program. I’ll go again. They struck a nice balance in teaching and practical exercises as well as firm instruction without being too “drill sergeant”. Here’s a few pics…I was shooting and learning so much, I didn’t have time to take more. My first sighters compared to the guy next to me (which was fairly typical)…I started getting cocky at this point. Stupid. Here’s one of the instructors showing us prone Compared to me…hmmm, he looked better. Looking up the firing line Ball n’ dummy coaching __________________ NRA Life Endowment Member NRA Certified Rifle Instructor Last edited by iamkris; June 4, 2007 at 07:37 PM.

June 4, 2007, 06:35 PM	#2
iamkris Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 256	Standing (sitting was too painful so I didn’t have time to get the camera out) First Redcoat target from day 1 compared to last one on Day 2 First QDAQT (sucky) Midway through 2nd day Last qual and Volley Redcoat Again, I highly recommend going. You’ll probably learn a lot. __________________ NRA Life Endowment Member NRA Certified Rifle Instructor

June 4, 2007, 07:09 PM	#3
knzn Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2001 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 124	Thanks for your report/review on your outing. I would love to go to one if they ever have one around here. (Kansas) __________________ knzn=kansan "For he was a man of propper wit, and the ghosty tails of the tall hills didn't scare him none."

June 5, 2007, 08:17 AM	#4
iamkris Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 256	I've received a few messages stating that shooting at simulated 400 m targets at 25 m is a waste of time and ammo. That actually shooting at 200-500 m is very different than simulated because of wind, mirage, etc. I agree that those factors are serious elements that we need to understand to effectively shoot long range. The problem with the opinion that 25m simulated targets is that for most shooters, IMHO, is that as proven by many writeups of Appleseeds, and now my own experiences, THE VAST, OVERWHELMING, SUPER MAJORITY OF PEOPLE CAN'T SHOOT WORTH CRAP. It seems that if you can clean the 25 m AQT first time, every time, from all positions, then it is better to shoot at distance. Thing is....most people don't. We had less than 5 people out of about 60 do it the entire weekend. And this wasn't a class of 60 new shooters. I'd say 80% were just like the majority on this board. Been shooting for years, have gun rooms that would make any liberal stain their shorts, go to the range on a fairly regular basis. Several had been to an Appleseed in the past. Many had military training. One was the State Police chief Instructor. None shot Rifleman. Until then, it seems kind of pointless to introduce mirage, wind, spin of the earth, etc that shooting at distance entails. __________________ NRA Life Endowment Member NRA Certified Rifle Instructor

June 5, 2007, 08:30 AM	#5
Dirty_Harry Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Otsego, MI Posts: 628	I like the choice of rifles at that camp __________________ "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have laid down." "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them." -John Wayne

June 5, 2007, 08:43 AM	#6
Dirty_Harry Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Otsego, MI Posts: 628	That looks interesting, I wish I could go....how much does that cost? __________________ "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have laid down." "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them." -John Wayne

June 5, 2007, 08:49 AM	#7
iamkris Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 256	$70 for a 2-day course. Best $70 you'll spend on your rifle. __________________ NRA Life Endowment Member NRA Certified Rifle Instructor

June 5, 2007, 03:54 PM	#9
DouglasW Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 104	Thank you for putting in the time and effort to post this report. I just learned about Appleseed this year, and definitely hope to attend one of their clinics in 2008.

July 10, 2007, 06:54 PM	#11
lfmayor Member Join Date: January 28, 2006 Location: in the red area of a blue state Posts: 72	It was a great time! I went to this event too and thought I'd walk the dog, especially at 25 yards. I'd read Fred's articles in SG news and for the most part thought his lines were just a sales gimmic. Then I got to eat two days worth of humble pie and I learned that my years of shooting had all been done... incorrectly. I had originally only signed for one day, but ended up going back for the second and did finally qualify marksman, the lowest usable form of life, . My buddy who was signed up to go ended up having to miss out, which happily saved my ego from utter deflation. So if you're all that and a bag of chips, you've got no reason to worry, go anyways... at the very worst you'll be the duke of cool and meet a group of nice people and teach some of us poorer specimens some tips. At best you'll learn a lot, if you can bear the shame, and still get to meet that group of nice people. When I told Fred (on day 2) I had originally thought he was full of it he asked me what I'd learned. I said "some new stuff about shooting" and he busted out laughing. He and the other instructors were great guys, top notch and I'm looking forward to the next event that's close enough for me to go.