12ga vs grizzly in emergency?

[Ocraknife]

My brother is going camping in a very remote area of Montana (is there any other kind of area in Montana?) with his family and I keep telling him that he should bring a rifle just in case but he doesn't wan't to because he has no need for one after he leaves there. He has however agreed on a shotgun since he could use one of those. My question is, would a 12ga with buckshot be effective against a grizzly? Again, this isn't for huntng, this is only as a last resort when all else, including bear spray and retreat has failed.

Thanks!

[TINCUP AL]

With slugs, yes. Buckshot,no. Good luck

[MEDDAC19]

Bear protection when camping is strictly a close range affair. With that said, a rifle while plenty powerful is surpassed, in my opinion, by a 12 gauge firing slug loads.

Although a load of buckshot is an awesome payload of lead flying at a bear, I have some concerns about enough adequate penetration. A shotgun with an 18" BBL and a compact stock would be just ticket.

This configuration should be easy to transport and get into action quickly. Some good quality bear spray/repellent should also be brought along as the first line of defense.

If that first line of toxic irritant defense fails, then it is time for the serious lead payloads. Don't dismiss a quality 10 gauge firing slugs as a last resort. If this combination fails to be effective then I hope you believe in good karma, because you will seriously need it.

[KALIFORNIST]

I have never shot a bear but I have shot alot of 000 buck and it penetrates well so you might be safe with 000 buck(especially 3 inch)but I would plan on taking multiple shots.maybe alternate between slug and 000 and stick with full power stuff.

[Hard Ball]

Slugs shoukd do the job. Buckshot is very chancy.

[SDC]

With slugs, you don't NEED to worry about whether or not they'll penetrate, all you need to do is make sure they're going in the right spot; if it comes down to it, shoot and keep shooting until it isn't moving anymore.

[Ocraknife]

Thanks guys, he is bringing a 12ga and will be using slugs. I tried to talk him into buying one of these http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/rgrRH/ and a box full of .454 casull ammo and selling it to me when he got back home from Montana but he went the Shotgun route.

[Wildalaska]

Buckshot.

WildwantmetoexplainwhyAlaska

[Cpl Nobbs]

he MAY want to consider alternating slugs with buckshot. just in case there is a, shall we say, "social encounter"?

but for Bear. Slugs.

[Socrates]

Ken:

Do you have records of actual shootings with buckshot?
Does it drive em off, without being fatal?

Dr S

[Charles S]

WildwantmetoexplainwhyAlaska

Yes please...

[Ocraknife]

Buckshot.

WildwantmetoexplainwhyAlaska

Buckshot is better? Being from Alaska I would expect you'd have the unfortunate experience of having first hand knowledge of this sort of thing. Should I tell him to buy steel shot buckshot or something like that?

[KALIFORNIST]

If penetration is a concern I would think steel would be worse the lead.Im tired so I could be wrong but steel is lighter then steel right?I need sleep

[Wildalaska]

OK...

I havent had the pleasure, thank god.

Jim West, our fearless and drive me crazy owner, has had the pleasure, to the tune of about 7-10 as I recollect. Buckshot.

The reason is simple. You are gonna get charged by a slavering smelly critter with a kill zone the size of a softball. That softball is going to be coming at you at 35 miles per hour whilst bucking and weaving. meanwhile, as Mr. Average, your bowels are gonna be opening. You are going to be shaking and quivering...so the best thing you can do is play anti aircraft over Bagdad at night...just keep them .33 caliber pellets rolling in a wave of lead and guess what, Mr Bar will leave you alone.

Then wipe off, call Fish and game and let them hunt it down.

WildwallofleadAlaska

[BigJimP]

Sawed off shotgun is by far the best with slugs - not buckshot of any type. You do not want to wound a Grizzly - and buckshot will put you in a world of hurt.

I lived in Montana for years - and the only part of Montana that has a serious Grizzly problem is Glacier Natl park (and you can't carry a gun there). For the most part - even is he's in the Bob Marshall wilderness or somewhere that is really remote he won't have a problem with Grizzly if he does all the smart things with food, makes noise on the trails, etc.

But most "typical family camping areas" are not Grizzly areas anyway - and while Montana might all seem remote, most of it really isn't. I recommend he check with the local fish and game office or a regional ranger station in the area he intends to visit and find out about bear activity in the areas he's going. Personally, I carried a .44 mag in a shoulder holster when I was fishing or backpacking in remote areas or a 12ga shotgun if I was camping in an area where I drove in to a campsite. Carrying a sawed off shotgun in something like an open topped saddle scabbard, can work, but it's awful heavy if you're planning on going too far in mountaneous terrain. I would carry the .44 mag for 2 legged predators as much as for a bear - just in case.

The only Grizzly I ever had to kill was done with a 30-06 at 50 yards - I've never had to use a gun on a Grizzly at close range ( and hope I don't have to ) it could be messy. But truly wild bears are not a big threat vs the "park bears" that are used to people - that are very dangerous, in my opinion. Flares, pepper spray, etc have been effective as well - and being aware enough to get your butt up a good solid tree works too. The Montana Grizzly is a puppy compared to the Alaskan Brown's and Grizzly up there - they are still to be respected/but in "wild" areas have never been a big problem.

[10 MickeyMouse]

If defense against big, angry bears was my concern, I'd look no farther than my 11-87 Police and Brenneke slugs.

That said, the Marlin 1895 is a close second.

[lefteye]

Several years ago my wife and I, along with about 20 other people, were escorted down the west slope of the continental divide in Glacier National Park by a federal employee (don't know the title of his job). The escort was necessary because a sow grizzly with twin cubs had been feeding across the trail. He carried a Remington 870 12 gauge with slugs in his hands - not over his shoulder. He was very serious!!! A person may not have time to shoot 5 slugs at an attacking bear, but there is probably nothing better than a 12 gauge with slugs, not buckshot, for bear defense.

[Socrates]

I've always thought an Ingram Mac 10, with a 32 round clip, and ball 45 ACP ammo would be nice. Somehow 7000 grains in under 2 seconds has to get even Mr. Bears' attention.

Likewise a short full auto version of the M14 would work. Point at ground, and let it climb right over him...

Dr. S

PS
I want to see how Phil Shoemaker does this year using a 375 Ruger...

[Edward429451]

just keep them .33 caliber pellets rolling in a wave of lead and guess what, Mr Bar will leave you alone.

Surely you jest.

You weren't real specific. How many bears did Jim drive off with Buckshot?

[Blue Duck]

Well, I have never had to shoot a big charging bear, but my money would be on the slugs if they were going where it counts, BUT! for the average joe, who has never had to stand and deliver when the chips were down, maybe, just maybe buckshot makes some sense. At least hits will be made, that might turn a bear, but maybe not. Maybe a couple of slugs, followed by a couple of buckshot loads, then finish up with slugs.

I know an African lion is not a bear, but I recall reading that buckshot was often used to turn a lion. I seen some footage one time, of a lion charge, with the guide and hunter both missing shots at a charging lion, fortunately they did hit it on one round, but the lion still knocked one of the men down, then turned to run away and was shot again as it was running away. They missed it at least two shots each, before it got to them. With that in mind, they were using bolt action rifles, but possibly buckshot would have been better for the charge stopper.

But then again, after seeing what a 375 HH mag will do on game, first hand, I might feel better with the 375 then any shotgun.

[Sgt.Fathead]

Check out the Dixie Slugs line:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/

These things will stop most any large animal and/or make filigreed lace out of parked cars, buildings, appliances, trees, large rocks, etc. That'll give your kin a fighting chance!

[WeedWacker]

USAS 12 w/ a 25 round drum alternating slug 000 buck.

But seriously a rem 870 full choke with slugs will do it. High shok 3 in mags would be perfect. See if you can get a CAR stock for it.

[tech4061]

But seriously a rem 870 full choke with slugs will do it.

Can you fire a slug with a full choke? I thought it had to be an improved cyl.

[axeman_g]

no full choke....

[FirstFreedom]

Buckshot. The reason is simple. You are gonna get charged by a slavering smelly critter with a kill zone the size of a softball. That softball is going to be coming at you at 35 miles per hour whilst bucking and weaving. meanwhile, as Mr. Average, your bowels are gonna be opening. You are going to be shaking and quivering...so the best thing you can do is play anti aircraft over Bagdad at night...just keep them .33 caliber pellets rolling in a wave of lead and guess what, Mr Bear will leave you alone.

Then wipe off, call Fish and game and let them hunt it down

Sounds like a good reason for the Dixie Tri-Ball:

Here is our Dixie Tri-Ball II! The load consists of three (.600’) hard cast round balls (buckshot) in heavy duty plastic wad. It is legal in buckshot only states, but that is where all comparison ends. The alignment of the balls in the wad, as it leaves the barrel, give much smaller groups that any present day’s factory buckshot. Groups as small as 5”or 6” at a measured 40 yards can be attained with the Trulock .660” choke tubes!

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

Still, I'd pull OC spray first - supposedly it works very well.