Massad Ayoob's "strong gun" style.

[Dannavy85]

I'm sure some of you have heard of Massad Ayoob who writes articles for Backwoods Home Magazine and is one of the top firearms experts in the United States. Well two months ago I read with interest his article on effective pistol shooting.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

My wife and I have tried these techniques for two months now at ranges of 6 Yards, 10 Yards and 15 Yards which Ayoob regards as the average ranges home owners will face against armed intruders. Our accuracy and grouping have increased wonderfully.

Yesterday I shot 20 rounds (2 magazines of 10 ) in slow aim shots against 3 targets and 3 rapid fire 10 round magazines against three targets. All at 10 yards.

Target 1 ( 20 rounds, slow )

17 bull
2 white paper
1 miss

Target 2 ( 20 rounds slow )

14 Bull
3 white paper
3 miss

Target 3 ( 20 rounds slow )

16 bull
4 white paper

Target 1 ( 10 rapid fire )

7 bull
3 white paper

Target 2 (10 rapid fire)

5 Bull
2 White paper
3 Miss

Target 3 (10 rapid fire )

4 Bull
2 White paper
4 Miss

These techniques deffinatly produce a more steady stance and a better accuracy result than traditional "Hollywood methods" still taught in some schools around the country.

[Black Adder LXX]

Thanks for sharing that. I was just at the range today and was experimenting with a stronger grip, just to try it. I was wondering if it was beneficial, and then saw this post and the great link. Thanks.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Nice.

Maybe Mr. Ayoob will stop by and critique your scores. He floats around here fairly regularly to dispense wisdom.

[Tuttle8]

I've tried some of those techniques that Mr. Ayoob has shown on the sight you linked in the past. It just didn't work for me. I think there are a lot of variables as to why.
1. I learn quicker, easier, and more efficiently hands on with an instructor present than reading and applying on my own.
2. I tried the thumb down with strong grip with mixed results.
a. Better recoil management to some degree
b. Accuracy suffered to some degree.
c. Fatigue set in for I like long range sessions.(Well, duh! Don't go so long!)
d. Uncomfortable to grip in this manner for me.

Randy Cain instructed me to have my grip on the gun using the thumb and middle finger only. All other fingers are there for the ride. Recoil is going to happen. I found out that when I let the gun do its thing (to a certain degree, of course), I am more relaxed. This, to me, was paramount over all others. It allowed me to concentrate on the front sight and learn muscle memory easier. The saying of follow-up shots are faster by controlling recoil, IMHO, is stretching it. The gun recovers back on target from recoil before I am ready anyway.

I, by no means, am saying that my methods taught to me is the best for everybody. Nor am I saying that Mr. Ayoob is wrong. I'm only speaking from the experiences that I've been exposed to and hope to enlighten the OP on other techniques.

[timothy75]

To really appriciate his crush grip method try it weak hand only, I saw instant results when I did the first time. If you take nothing else from his techniques I strongly recomend that one.

[Ocraknife]

Gripping harder worked for me.

[Deaf Smith]

Strange,

On the article the guy using the 'Weaver' stance, isn't using a Weaver stance. I bet the editors didn't know what the picture really showed.

Anyway, Mas has written ton's on shooting methods. In his LFI class you learn such as the Ayoob Wedge and his horse stance (which honestly I hated when I took his class!)

Still he is one of the 'must read' authors. I've read him since college back in the 70s and he wrote for SOF mag. Him and Farnam (and of course Jeff Cooper!)

[rdebert]

That is how I was trained and still shoot. Where this becomes very beneficial is when you have to drop your support hand...no need to change grip positions. Dropping the support hand and maintaining a solid grip is valuable when (for example) you are entering or exiting a vehicle, going through doors, traversing uneven terrain/stairs/through rubble, accessing comms (radio), etc.

[BlueTrain]

I believe I suggested in another thread that you take a tape measure and see how far it is between various places around your house or homestead. I was surprised at how far it was from my basement door to the edge of the woods, where all the animals are. The point here is that it is difficult to relate the distances from the firing line, especially at an indoor range, to real world distances, unless you live in a warehouse. Likewise, I have rarely seen terrain that resembled a long-distance rifle range either. But then, I live in the East. Most places are full of either trees or houses or both.

I am also in favor of keeping shooting sessions (for training purposes) relatively short. I am convinced that 50 rounds of magnum pistol shooting does not help with your skill level and after a while, it isn't much fun either. I am not so certain that comfort should enter into the picture as long as you are achieving your desired results. Along the same lines, I had never considered whether or not an instructor would be of great benefit beyond the basics. After all, you end up attempting to meet his goals, which are not necessarily your own goals.

[FM12]

Mas Ayoob is one of the most knowledgeable writers today. Not just prolific, but knows what he's talking about. I HIGHLY recommend his books, especially "In the Gravest Extreme". FM12

[redblair]

The first book I ever read on guns and SD was "In the Gravest Extreme" recommended by the owner of my range. Since then I've read many of his works. Usually good reading, with lots to learn.

B

[Magyar]

6 Yards, 10 Yards and 15 Yards which Ayoob regards as the average ranges home owners will face against armed intruders.

If he said that he is going against the FBI Uniform Crime Report and every statistical analysis of the past 40 years from various cities, including his own statistics in previous writings since the 1970's....
This is a nice drill; but hardly comparable to real-life situations..
BTW, shootings are much closer than your data indicates and I also enjoy Mr. Ayoob's writings....
This isn't nit-picking but this is why we have shooters practicing over a PU bed at 25 yds because they read about accuracy testing being done from a bench-rest...I suggest some CQC training would be more appropriate....

[Dannavy85]

If he said that he is going against the FBI Uniform Crime Report and every statistical analysis of the past 40 years from various cities, including his own statistics in previous writings since the 1970's....
This is a nice drill; but hardly comparable to real-life situations..

Well the ranges I specified are only kin to modest size homes, ours is a two bed, one bath with ajoined garrage. When we first bought the house we did a review of our security needs ( windows, doors, etc ) and judged confrontational distances between 5 feet and 15 feet. Now Mas of course would never put a limit on effective shooting, we only took what information he puts out concerning interior defense and use that as our guide.

The way I read his information, good home security starts with being aware of both the immediate surroundings of where you live and the information beyond that supplied by news and local authority. Effective relations and proactive involvement with Police is a must, especially in our location where Meth and Heroin usage is high and burglary crimes common. Sounds a little paranoidical but the earlier you can catch potential threats, the more time you have to respond and the more hope there is to avoid using deadly force.

[The Tourist]

On the article the guy using the 'Weaver' stance, isn't using a Weaver stance.

I kind of imagined the position as a 'refined modified Weaver,' if that makes sense.

I like a firm grip, but I've tried a 'firmer' or crush grip before and my shots go low--which wouldn't be that bad in facing an aggressor.

I think my problem is that when I grip with a more firm feel, my fist wants to align more with my forearm and I point low.

As for personal instruction, yes, I learn better that way, as well. I would love to spend time at LFI, Thunder Ranch or Gunsite Raven. Try as I might, I find I make rookie mistakes after a winter's lay-off.

[Mark Milton]

Two things to remember.
•The human hand was meant to grasp things....

• The Shooting fraternity is full of goofy gamesmen that try to come up with things they THINK help their shooting, when in actuallity it's usually detrimental to shooting -- and of course, they pass along this bad advise as tips from the master!

In the real world, if you hold your gun with a strong firm grip, you are going to have a better chance of staying on target than you are with it just hanging out there.....

I figure this thumb in the air and hang it out there nonsense is the secret to why so many young fellers feel the 1911 is not reliable. I have seldom if ever fired a 1911 that was anything less than 100 percent reliable...But then again, the only time I have my thumb up in the air is when i am hitching and I would never hold a gun loosely for serious social purposes.
Remember you are talking like 2-3 pounds of gun and 5 or more pounds of trigger pressure.

[Pappy John]

I was serving as a range officer for the final day of an LFI course recently at my local club. The first thing that jumped out at me was almost every student's gun absolutely quivering in their grip prior to shooting, and during dry fire. When I asked one of the instructors about it, he explained the "crush grip" combat concept to me. From reading the above article though, Mas says to grip till the gun quivers, and then back off a bit.

It seemed like too much of a good thing to me at the time. I think they might have been over doing it a bit, since it was such a new concept to most of them. While observing the pre-qualifying shoot demo run by Mas and his assistant instructors, I noticed Mas's gun and most assistants' guns were rock steady, with only one assistant's gun exhibiting shake.

[Lurper]

Two things to remember.
•The human hand was meant to grasp things....

• The Shooting fraternity is full of goofy gamesmen that try to come up with things they THINK help their shooting, when in actuallity it's usually detrimental to shooting -- and of course, they pass along this bad advise as tips from the master!

In the real world, if you hold your gun with a strong firm grip, you are going to have a better chance of staying on target than you are with it just hanging out there.....

Two more important things to remember:
The shooting fraternity is full of 97% "experts" who write or teach and 3% who can actually do.

The human body operates most efficiently when you do things the way your body was designed to work. You perform at peak efficiency when relaxed. A crush grip is not conducive to fast and accurate shooting. Neither is the Weaver or Chapman stance. The best pistol shooters in the world use the same basic technique with slight variations. Perhaps there is a reason?

Mas is a very knowledgeable person whom I have a lot of respect for. If you want to learn and use his method, feel free to do so. But to say that it is the best method is a bit of a stretch. In the real world, those who can do and if you want to reach that level of proficiency, you should strive to learn from them. Show me someone who really believes the technique that shooters like Leatham et. al use are not going to be as effective for SD and I'll show you a fool.

[Socrates]

My experience is a bit different. About 30 years ago, I started shooting. I started with a 44 special, loaded to 44 magnum loads, and, a 45 Detonics Combat Master VI, loaded to 45 super/451 Detonics level loads, and stayed with it.
I was taught the quail grip, and, tried the crush grip. It became apparent very early on that you can't shoot a 45 Super level gun, in a 32 oz gun, with a crush grip, if you want
to keep your hands functioning, and, the skin on your hands.
I learned early on to sand the checkering off the guns, used a relaxed grip, and let the gun recoil up, but, with practice, you can pull the gun quickly down, and back on target, for a quick second shot. Takes practice.

When I went to 454/45 Super heavy Colt, with small grips, on a SA revolver, this was they ONLY way to shoot the gun.

I have since become convinced that the most important part of shooting guns is making sure the grips are big enough so you don't have to use a death grip on the gun, but, can have a fairly relaxed hand position, but still hold onto the gun.

I also believe that super hard gripping can cause damage to the bones, tendons, ligaments, cushioning, and nerves in your arms, and shoulders, if done enough, or, done with very heavy recoiling revolvers. If you give a handgun that recoils between 20 ft lbs, and 72, like my 500 Max, a firm, hard line of bone and muscle to recoil into, the energy has nowhere to go, and, your arms bones, and joints are going to take all that force, over and over, and, something gives.

I have a friend that suffers from a delapidating form of nerve trauma from long time, industrial shooting of very heavy handguns. Imagine your mind developing a 'flinch'
so bad that it sends pain never impulses to your arm, learned from the many shots you've fired over your lifetime. It's become a sort of learned, reversed behavior.
The mind becomes used to the pain, and, now sends that pain back to the arms, without provocation, at anytime, day or night.

Pretty terrifying stuff, but, that can be the end result of a death grip, on heavy handguns, for a long period of time.

However, I think Mas intends these shooting techniques for lighter guns...

Dr. S

[hoser1911]

Mas is a good man, a good shooter and good American. I took his LF1 and got my entire money's worth. But Dannavy85, Daniel, Dan...misses at 15 yards...please. This reads like a 7th grader talking about how well his algebra class is going when he still hasn't mastered the basics of arthmatic.

Slowfire, non moving target, a target no smaller than a softball & 15 yards. No added stress like timers attached Range Officials with ego penalty envy because BW says it ain't tactical enough; and you miss?


For non handicapped shooters:

1, non-moving, well-lighted unubstructed view of a B27 NRA Target, @ 15 yards, taking all the time you need, getting 99% hits in nothing less than the 9 ring. And the 1% error rate is generous.

Mas Y. is very entertaining; he does pass along some good info, but if you can't demonstrate your ability to do the above...well...Tips & Secrets & crush grip this & power grab that along with their trademarks be dammed!. How about Power some high speed lead thru the center of the target presented with the basics? The same basics that have been around for 65 to 70 years or more? Go back to basics. There are no short-cuts. No magic tricks, no secrets. I know Mas would agree.

[Mas Ayoob]

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks; different tools for different tasks.

Lurper has posted elsewhere that he has a helluva lot of trigger time, and Rob Leatham shoots about 100,000 live rounds a year. Rob also has an extraordinarily high level of dexterity and coordination. Most folks don't have those things going for them. The "neutral grip" favors the shooter who has already mastered the basics.

Rob Leatham will generally be shooting a 39 ounce Springfield Armory 1911 with a trigger pull as light as one pound. Lurper has written of using full size 1911s with one and two pound trigger pulls. You can get away with techniques on a gun whose trigger pull weight is less than its unloaded weight, that you can't get away with using some other guns.

Pappy John (thanks for you and your guys' help on the firing line, sir) mentioned watching an LFI class. Many of those 25-plus people were new shooters, and a majority of them had little or no formal training prior. NONE had match guns with ultra-light trigger pulls. Three had AirLite and Ultra-Lite snubbies, eleven OUNCE .38s and .357s with eleven POUND double action only trigger pulls. It takes a very firm grasp to stabilize a gun that light against a pull that heavy, and to keep so light a gun from twisting in the hand during recoil.

Several of the shooters were using Glocks in various calibers, mostly with 5.5-lb trigger pulls. If the shooter is a Miami cop whose Glock 22 is issued with an eight-pound connector, a New York State Trooper whose Glock 37 is issued with the NY-1 module (roughly eight pound pull), or a New York City cop required to have an NY-2 (nominal 11.5-pound pull weight) in his Glock, it will once again be important to have a firm grip that will stabilize the gun on target against the weight of the trigger stroke.

A major problem with new and even journeyman shooters is "milking." That is, as the trigger finger moves in rapid fire, interlimb response causes the other fingers on that hand to sympathetically flex with it. This sudden tightening tends to pull the muzzle down and to the side the instant the shot is fired. Rob Leatham and Lurper are long since past "milking," but most handgunners are not. The crush grip is the surest, quickest cure for "milking" since with the three lower fingers and the thumb already flexed as tight as they can be, it is not possible for additional tightening to occur at the wrong time.

If Pappy John was on the line on qualification day, he observed that seven out of 26 or 27 shooters shot 100% scores on the police qualification, and the average score was in the 290s out of 300 possible points. With many of those shooters new to the gun, I think those results validate our use of the firm grasp in teaching basic defensive handgun use.

I don't think there's any question that Leatham's or Lurper's skills would serve them well in a gunfight. However, there are some techniques used by champions that lay practitioners don't yet have the fine-tuned skills to employ optimally, and there are techniques that work better for heavy guns with light trigger pulls than for light guns with heavy trigger pulls.

[briang2ad]

IN a "popular video" now on the web - Todd Jarrett teaches a high hand hold with thumbs basically up and forward. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...d+jarret&hl=en. I have tried this with some success, but not enough to compare directly to Mas' strong hold (which I had used in the past).

Has anyone tried BOTH extensively and compared the results?

I also feel uncomfortable with my arms fully extended, and my feet parallel. I DO like to be triangular in stance, and have a definite bend in the elbow. (Besides - in close quarters, extended arms may be tough to attain).

What Mas said about folks with true 'stock' guns and not as much experience makes sense.

[Socrates]

Hi Mr. Ayoob.

Always a pleasure to here your comments and ideas. My 500 Max is waiting for you. When are you going to be in Kali?
Chabot???

Dr. S

[hoser1911]

I'll buy that no matter what you call it.

Listen to Mas. He knows what he is talking about.

A light gun with a heavy trigger pull will require a firm grasp. Check. That's falls under 'Basic'; right?. I thought everyone knew this or would expirence it on the range. ( There I go thinking again.) Listen to Mas. He can explain it better.

I don't know what Rob L. & Todd G. are telling you. I've taken classes from both of them. I don't remember them saying anything less than a firm grasp was acceptable. When I saw them shoot in a match or while teaching I could always see the forearms flex.

I'd re-read what Mas just posted. Mas is on track; again. (As if Mas really needs my approval. Ha!)