Legality of Letting Someone Shoot Your Gun at Range?

gvf · July 25, 2007, 01:46 AM

This seems to frequently happen: at the range I start to chat with someone, and before you know it one of us asks if the other wants to try their gun. This is NY State by the way, and I have a Carry. Obviously no one would be shooting at a range without at least a target-permit. But: is letting someone use your pistol legal?

And I do know something I just did this evening at an outdoor range that was stupid: I let the son of a guy I was talking to (and trading guns with), shoot a gun of mine. He'd been shooting his dad's but he was 14 or 15 and could never have had a pistol permit. I thought afterwards - but not at he time - highly unlikely a cop would wander onto the range, but if the kid had had an accident with my gun, I think the investigation would have put me in a real dog house, and god knows what the civil liability would have been.

But to the broader question: can 2 permit-holders legally trade off their guns for a few shots?

teeroux · July 25, 2007, 02:03 AM

You have to have a permit to shoot targets?

Hkmp5sd · July 25, 2007, 02:29 AM

Letting an adult shoot your gun, yep, legal. Might get a little sticky doing it with a minor unless minor's parent/guardian allows it.

Quote:

QUESTIONS and ANSWERS

B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005

smenkhare · July 25, 2007, 03:58 AM

Quote:

You have to have a permit to shoot targets?

here you do.

gvf · July 25, 2007, 06:03 AM

In NY State, unless you have a pistol permit, you can't touch a handgun, literally. Even in the required permit class, NO TOUCH THE GUN!, and in this class the demo guns are disabled with firing pin removed: NO TOUCH THE GUN!

When you look at guns in a store: DON"T TOUCH THE GUN!

In New York City, in the few stores that sell handguns - less than 4 I think - without a permit you are not allowed in the store. With a permit, you must make special appointment to see the guns through the City of New York. If approved you are allowed appointment at a store at an alloted time (or perhaps this is if you have a permit from another county in the state, and if you have one for NYC you can enter; not sure, whatever: "it don't come easy")

Nice thing about New York State: once you get a permit: it's yours for life. New York City is 5 years I think. NYC will not recognize permits from the rest of the state - or the country. (In the same way, they won't recognize handicap license-plates or hang-tags from other parts of the state - or country. You have to get a special one for New York City. Forget it....Anyway, it's a moot point, there are no handicap parking spaces on the street in NYC. You get permission to park illegally as long as it does not: interfere with traffic, is not in bus stop zone, is not in a Fire Hydrant Zone. I.E.: close to impossible to find such a spot )

k8do · July 25, 2007, 08:55 AM

Ignoring the insane laws of New York State (enacted by NYC democrats)...
Letting another person shoot or even handle your gun at the range is thin ice territory...
If you know them well, you are probably safe... If you don't know them and they are:
A. Underage
B. Have a felony conviction
c. Have a restraining order
D. Have been convicted of domestic violence
E. And probably others I can't think of at the moment
you could be guilty of being an accessory to a crime.. Not real likely, but something to think about...

When shooting IDPA there is often some "Hey, try my gun on this stage.", but since the others all have hand guns they brought to the range it is less likely they are prohibited felons... YMMV in some jurisdictions...

denny

JR47 · July 25, 2007, 09:41 AM

In the scenario described by the OP, both have weapons present. That's a pretty fair assumption that the person you're talking with isn't restricted. The law doesn't require you run a NICS check prior to letting another armed person shoot your weapon. If they have misrepresented themselves, they will be dealt with by the law.

mikejonestkd · July 25, 2007, 09:55 AM

My local range has a nice BIG sign that states:

" Only NYS Pistol Permit holders are allowed to use handguns. Violation of this law will lead to disciplinary action for the club member and possible law enforcement involvement "

They have no problem if you are trading pistols with another permit holder at the range, even though it is still 'technically' against NYS law - if a specific pistol is not on your permit you are not allowed to use it. Gun shops will let you inspect them before you buy as long as you provide proof that you have a permit.

The Tourist · July 25, 2007, 10:30 AM

I do not loan out guns, knives or motorcycles.

jimpeel · July 25, 2007, 10:53 AM

I went to Kali and went shooting with Skunkabilly at a range in OC. I borrowed the FIL's Beretta.

Skunky told me "I knew you wouldn't get out of California without committing at least one felony." To which I replied "How's that?"

He then explained the law in Kali is structured such that my use of my FIL's firearm with fifteen round magazines is a crime if he is not actually standing there with me. It is a crime to loan out a hi-cap mag and a crime to receive one. The exception is that the person loaning the mag must actually be in the presence of the other person at all times.

Quote:

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

...

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

Quote:

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

...

(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine
between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not
prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from
possessing firearms or ammunition.
(B) The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or
location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not
otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity
magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the
large-capacity magazine is loaned.

Dave P · July 25, 2007, 11:08 AM

This is sad.

Do you need a permit to enter the gun shop?

Musketeer · July 25, 2007, 11:34 AM

This is about NY, not Cali or even Fed laws.

Technically nobody but the permit holder may "posses" the handgun in question. Possession is a tricky thing though and subject to varied interpretation. In rural sections of upstate NY it might not be a problem as long as both shooters have a NYS permit. At the Nassau County range I went to once on Long Island you r are explicitly told you cannot lend handguns to other shooters regardless of the permit.

ConcealCarryNY · July 25, 2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Do you need a permit to enter the gun shop?

No you don't. The permit is only for the purchase and carry of handguns. You cannot handle handguns in the state of NY without a Permit. If you work at say Gander Mountain you legally cannot open a display case, reach in, remove a handgun, and let a permit carrying customer inspect the handgun. Yes it is that stupid in this state couple more years and I am headed to PA.

Quote:

You have to have a permit to shoot targets?

here you do.

The permit is not for shooting targets it is for purchase and ownership of the Handgun. Unfortunately in NY the counties have taken it upon themselves to add restrictions ie hunting target shooting, carry while on duty only for private security types, and all colors of liberal speak. The counties are actually only issuing agents and should not be setting up thier own restrictions but I don't think there is anyway for the state of New York to exit the downward spiral of cessation of rights and nannyocracy

jimpeel · July 25, 2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

This is about NY, not Cali or even Fed laws.

Sheesh!!!

I was merely giving anecdotal evidence of these types of laws and how they pervade the country; not just New York.

Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

July 25, 2007, 01:46 AM	#1
gvf Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 1,226	Legality of Letting Someone Shoot Your Gun at Range? This seems to frequently happen: at the range I start to chat with someone, and before you know it one of us asks if the other wants to try their gun. This is NY State by the way, and I have a Carry. Obviously no one would be shooting at a range without at least a target-permit. But: is letting someone use your pistol legal? And I do know something I just did this evening at an outdoor range that was stupid: I let the son of a guy I was talking to (and trading guns with), shoot a gun of mine. He'd been shooting his dad's but he was 14 or 15 and could never have had a pistol permit. I thought afterwards - but not at he time - highly unlikely a cop would wander onto the range, but if the kid had had an accident with my gun, I think the investigation would have put me in a real dog house, and god knows what the civil liability would have been. But to the broader question: can 2 permit-holders legally trade off their guns for a few shots?

July 25, 2007, 09:55 AM	#8
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 1,796	My local range has a nice BIG sign that states: " Only NYS Pistol Permit holders are allowed to use handguns. Violation of this law will lead to disciplinary action for the club member and possible law enforcement involvement " They have no problem if you are trading pistols with another permit holder at the range, even though it is still 'technically' against NYS law - if a specific pistol is not on your permit you are not allowed to use it. Gun shops will let you inspect them before you buy as long as you provide proof that you have a permit. __________________ YMMV

July 25, 2007, 11:34 AM	#12
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,501	This is about NY, not Cali or even Fed laws. Technically nobody but the permit holder may "posses" the handgun in question. Possession is a tricky thing though and subject to varied interpretation. In rural sections of upstate NY it might not be a problem as long as both shooters have a NYS permit. At the Nassau County range I went to once on Long Island you r are explicitly told you cannot lend handguns to other shooters regardless of the permit. __________________ "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

July 25, 2007, 02:03 AM	#2
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Louisianna Posts: 885	You have to have a permit to shoot targets?

July 25, 2007, 06:03 AM	#5
gvf Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 1,226	In NY State, unless you have a pistol permit, you can't touch a handgun, literally. Even in the required permit class, NO TOUCH THE GUN!, and in this class the demo guns are disabled with firing pin removed: NO TOUCH THE GUN! When you look at guns in a store: DON"T TOUCH THE GUN! In New York City, in the few stores that sell handguns - less than 4 I think - without a permit you are not allowed in the store. With a permit, you must make special appointment to see the guns through the City of New York. If approved you are allowed appointment at a store at an alloted time (or perhaps this is if you have a permit from another county in the state, and if you have one for NYC you can enter; not sure, whatever: "it don't come easy") Nice thing about New York State: once you get a permit: it's yours for life. New York City is 5 years I think. NYC will not recognize permits from the rest of the state - or the country. (In the same way, they won't recognize handicap license-plates or hang-tags from other parts of the state - or country. You have to get a special one for New York City. Forget it....Anyway, it's a moot point, there are no handicap parking spaces on the street in NYC. You get permission to park illegally as long as it does not: interfere with traffic, is not in bus stop zone, is not in a Fire Hydrant Zone. I.E.: close to impossible to find such a spot )

July 25, 2007, 08:55 AM	#6
k8do Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 102	Ignoring the insane laws of New York State (enacted by NYC democrats)... Letting another person shoot or even handle your gun at the range is thin ice territory... If you know them well, you are probably safe... If you don't know them and they are: A. Underage B. Have a felony conviction c. Have a restraining order D. Have been convicted of domestic violence E. And probably others I can't think of at the moment you could be guilty of being an accessory to a crime.. Not real likely, but something to think about... When shooting IDPA there is often some "Hey, try my gun on this stage.", but since the others all have hand guns they brought to the range it is less likely they are prohibited felons... YMMV in some jurisdictions... denny

July 25, 2007, 09:41 AM	#7
JR47 Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2005 Location: North Georgia Posts: 2,229	In the scenario described by the OP, both have weapons present. That's a pretty fair assumption that the person you're talking with isn't restricted. The law doesn't require you run a NICS check prior to letting another armed person shoot your weapon. If they have misrepresented themselves, they will be dealt with by the law.

July 25, 2007, 10:30 AM	#9
The Tourist Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,027	I *do not* loan out guns, knives or motorcycles.

July 25, 2007, 11:08 AM	#11
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: Melbourne, Florida Posts: 793	This is sad. Do you need a permit to enter the gun shop?