How Old Guys Who Learned to Shoot a long time ago Hold their Autos Wrong

[Wildalaska]

Yep.

I learned with my hand in my back pocket. Then it was finger on the trigger guard...remember the checkering on the front of trigger guards?

Now i'm told I do it all wrong....fingers on trigger guards are passe...

Makes me feel bad to have someone tell me that as I chew the kill zone out with a pistol. I have a fragile ego.

WildwhatbadhabitsdoyouhaveAlaska TM

[Bill DeShivs]

There's not room on the trigger guard after you mount flashlights, bayonets, lasers, and curb feelers!

[Wildalaska]

HA! and i can remember taping a shiny aluminum Everready to my .22

With duct tape

WildtacticalschmacticalAlaska

[Bill DeShivs]

"Tactical" duct tape!

[Garand Illusion]

I might not have had a very good teacher.

I was taught to flick off the safety, put my finger on the trigger, and begin taking up slack before clearing the holster.

As a result my right leg is a patchwork of long, vertical scars, I've had 7 operations to date, and most of my knee is completely gone.

Plus I accidentally shot my wife's favorite chihuahua.

I REALLY need to break that habit.

[sm]

Wildalaska,

Well...I have always been a Rebel, and not just because I was born and bred in the South.
I still one at age 52.

At the age of 3 I shot my very own revolver given to me at birth.
I was a little preoccupied and busy for those first 3 years hence the reason I put it off shooting before.
Still Grandma wanted lessons and well, being the wonderful grandson I was, I gave her lessons.
Two hands, and it seemed to help her if I used her knee as a rest.

Age 6, this Gunny needed some input with the Army Folks on a 1911.
Heck, I knew them C rations had gooood chocolate, and the Cooks bribed easy.
Heck why not give some input?
Again I used a two hand hold and again I used either a cardboard box or wooden Coke Case to prop up the gun sharing the correct basics of sight alignment, trigger control and all that stuff.

Tad Bigger and , Well if a Cop needs help with a Model 10, why not?
He was the one that found mom that time she got lost in the store.
I told here to stay "right there" and not run off...we all know how moms just do not listen to a kid...

Yep, you guessed it, two hands, pretty much the same hold as on that Gov't Model of 1911 as on a Revolver. I mean sheesh, I started folks off right with .22 revolvers, like Grandma...

BHP, well the Lady needed lessons whether she knew or not. I just had to shoot that gun...I mean show her how to shoot it.


Then some darn fool gun company had this "doo-hicky" on the front of trigger guard .
I saw some putting finger up there and that is when the files come out and them suckers got filed off!

Then these ugly black plastic guns come out, and they were not water pistols ...and folks that grew up shooting 1911s, BHPs and K Frames pointed them high.
"Doo-hickey in front of trigger guard and I commenced to yelling...when weak hand finger went up there..yelling and then
nope, hard headed and full of them young selves putting a finger up there.

I had the file in hand...decided to walk off and let the whippersnappers just be wrong.



"You can't use two hands shooting a Bulls-Eye target" - they yelled at me
"Yes I can, I just did it"
"You have to use one hand only"
"No, no, no, you don't have to transition to weak hand only" - dang these folks picky.
So I let hang the weak hand near weak side inseam and they quit yelling...

Still a Rebel.
I get yelled at now for starting out new folks on a .22 revolver.

I guess my Role is to be a Rebel and get folks to yelling at me...
I gots lots of 'perince in that.

[Double Naught Spy]

Wildalaska, you aren't wrong, just old.

Actually, you make an interesting point that many firearms instructors fail to understand. Many want you to change your style of shooting to fit what they teach because they 'know' what is the best method and often these guys fail to take into account that if what your are doing works well and works safely, then changing your style might not be a good thing.

A classic contrary example happened to a buddy of mine at a Awerbuck class. At some point, Awerbuck had the student go to the front of the class and demonstrate his shooting sequence for everyone and then Awerbuck pointed out everything that was wrong with what the student was doing (which was just about everything). The student's stance was wrong, his elbows and wrists were wrong, how he linged up the sites was wrong, etc. There was one exception. Awerbuck pointed out the student's target that showed a proper grouping of shots. Awerbuck's final judgment? He pointed out that the student was obviously an experienced shooter who had a non-typical shooting style that worked well for him and as such, Awerbuck would not try to change it to conform to what Awerbuck thought was right, but to only offer suggestions that would improve on what the student was already doing.

I have never had an Awerbuck class, but that sort of attitude and understanding makes me think that Awerbuck has a degree and level of professionalism that is a notch or two above that of most gun gurus.

[nate45]

Heres a good video someone on another thread posted it I can't remember which.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32856867071363

Maybe this will help.

Not that I'm saying you need it.

Maybe you already shoot like a world champion?

[deanadell]

WIld,

LOL

I have been told I'm breaking clays all wrong because I do it with a 25 year old MOssberg 500 with no vent rib or interchangable choke tubes

[AirForceShooter]

yep:
I'm 61 and been shooting hand guns since I'm 17.
I shoot them all wrong.
People point at me at the range telling their partners that's not how to do it. Children run away looking at my stance.
Young RO's cringe.
Nobody ever looks at my target.

I'm 61, I really don't care.
Guess what I'm going to teach my granddaughter?
Guess what I taught my kids?
Yep we're all wrong.
"Hey kids nice groups".

Cool, ain't it??

AFS

[ZeSpectre]

I learned with my hand in my back pocket. Then it was finger on the trigger guard...remember the checkering on the front of trigger guards?

Now i'm told I do it all wrong....fingers on trigger guards are passe...

Makes me feel bad to have someone tell me that as I chew the kill zone out with a pistol. I have a fragile ego.

WildwhatbadhabitsdoyouhaveAlaska TM

Yup, me too.
Fancy pants NRA instructor* was all insistent that I learn this "Wherever" stance or some such foolishness and okay, I was doing decently well with it.

Then he said that was pretty good and I had some time left so I could shoot however I wanted so I took my usual one-handed (Lefty) "bullseye stance" and shot this one...



(*Just kidding, Jim at the NRA is a great guy and I have nothing but respect for his knowledge and skills!)

[deadin]

Reminds me of the trainer/teacher looking at my target with 10 tens and telling me "You're not doing it the way I told you!"

[tulsamal]

OK, I'll say you are right and wrong both!

Think back to Jeff Cooper and Weaver and all those guys who started shooting "practical pistol" matches in Southern California way back "in the day." Their theory was that they would try just about anything and test it out under pressure. Using a timer and targets and ammo powerful enough to be used for service or defense. Just about all of them started out shooting one handed. But then Weaver came up with his two handed stance and started whipping the lot of them. So you had a choice. You could keep shooting "the old way" or you could try to learn the new way. If you kept shooting the old way, you were going to lose the matches. So the people who wanted to get the best scores, gradually changed the way they shot.

This is the good thing about all the pistol competitions today. Whether we are talking about IPSC or IDPA or whatever, people want to win. The top shooters would rather win than be "right" about their tried and tested technique. If somebody can show that Method B is faster than Method A, then everybody is going to start trying Method B. But if a new Method C comes along and starts to win, they will change again.

I shot a handgun with my left index finger on the front of the trigger guard for probably twenty years. It just felt right to me. But I noticed none of the top shooters did that. I asked for some help understanding their hold. It felt awkward to me at first. But I figured I would try it for a few weeks. And you know what? It really was faster. The finger on the trigger guard is an inherently weak two handed hold. You are opening up your grip. If you have Rob Leatham shoot a match both ways, his two handed grip with the thumbs both pointing forward will be faster than one index finger on the trigger guard. Your follow up shots are just faster. That's not my opinion or somebody else's opinion. That's what the stopwatch says.

If you are comfortable with what you do, that's great. If you want to get faster, then you have to try the new stuff. Don't be one of those old dogs that can't learn new tricks!

Gregg

[Bill DeShivs]

Ruff.

[akviper]

Woof woof. I don't get to shoot 10,000 low recoil rounds a week through a tricked out pistol that allows me to rack the slide with two fingers. When faced with a threat I don't stand facing square to it waiting to get knocked on my hind end. I've been to just about every school and honestly tried just about every method and the only universal lesson I've learned is that there is no single cookie cutter technique that works for everyone. The fast game tecniques are great for winning matches but I train to survive a real world event.

Not everyone has the same athletic ability or hand size. Some people use real guns with real ammunition. Try them all and use what works best for you.

Please don't misconstrue my post as disrespecting game shooters. I admire them greatly and they are some of the best atheletes this world will ever know. I simply contend that virtually all real world shooters will not spend the time or money to get to that level of shooting. If your style ain't broke, don't worry about fixing it.

[Wildalaska]

Ruff ruff

WildidontshootcompetitionAlaska TM

[Jim Keenan]

I learned to draw and fire a revolver from a holster that exposed the trigger guard. I was taught to draw with the trigger finger on the trigger, and with the hammer starting back even before the gun cleared the holster, with the hammer falling just as the gun came on the target.

I never shot myself, the ground, toy poodles, the odd range officer, or anything else except the target. And I didn't wait around thinking about which guru said to do what or what was the appropriate stance.

Oh, well, those days are no more. Today, the bad guy is allowed to get in ten shots while the good guy is filing impact statements for each shot he might fire if he lives long enough.

Jim

[Hard Ball]

"I learned to draw and fire a revolver from a holster that exposed the trigger guard. I was taught to draw with the trigger finger on the trigger, and with the hammer starting back even before the gun cleared the holster, with the hammer falling just as the gun came on the target.

I never shot myself, the ground, toy poodles, the odd range officer, or anything else except the target. And I didn't wait around thinking about which guru said to do what or what was the appropriate stance."

Except for "and with the hammer starting back even before the gun cleared the holster, " thats the way I have done it for manu years and it works.

[Wildalaska]

I still draw and thumbcock a DA revolver

WildimjustadinosaurAlaska TM

[JWT]

Old guys probably do lots of things wrong, but they've earned the right to do so.

[Hard Ball]

Well. I'm alive here instead of dead there so L must have done something right.

[Socrates]

Given a choice, I'd rather draw and cock my 475 FA, or, 500 MAX, and hit what I'm aiming at...

Still, those little 45 Super guns are nice for carry...

Dr S

PS: While I have the greatest respect for Mr. Jarett, doesn't that stance maximize target for the Bad Guy? Also, if I'm shooting at that range, I'm in a war, not a self-defense situation, and, if that's the case, I want a rifle. I hold my 1911's and other guns about the same way he does, but, I'd better get a vest if I was engaging an enemy with that stance.

[Walter]

Old guys probably do lots of things wrong, but they've earned the right to do so.

That's right. Including, "occasionally" thumb-dropping the hammer on a
1911. I get so tired of hearing how dangerous that is that I want to
puke. Hell yes, it's dangerous. The 1911 itself is dangerous. Carrying
a gun is dangerous.
Give us "experienced" guys a break and believe that some of us are
actually capable of dropping the hammer on a loaded 1911 without
having a catastrophe.
And before you start, STOP with the sermon about why it is wrong!
Some of us old guys have been toting guns a long time and don't need
"preachin' to".
Glad to get that off my chest.

Walter

[Detachment Charlie]

Some day I'm gonna meet AirForceShooter; we've got a lot in common, same age, same shooting stance problems, same results, and we live in the same area (Gulf Coast Florida, AKA Paradise).
I draw my 2" S&W from my 3 o'clock, bring both hands together near my breast bone as I squat like I'm gonna take a dump in the woods, feet are should wide (so you don't crap on your heels). By the time my femurs (thigh bones) are parallel with the ground, my arms are also parallel to the ground, fully extended and the gun goes bang, because I've been pressing the double action trigger since my hands came together.
It works for me; I know. Also this stance is a natural reaction to fear posture. And, kids, if you ain't afraid, you ain't got no business pullin' out your piece.
I am old. I am retired. I am grouchy. I am intolerant, and I am judgemental. I am also alive. Thank you. I am off to th range.

[Wildalaska]

I am old. I am retired. I am grouchy. I am intolerant, and I am judgemental. I am also alive. Thank you. I am off to th range.

Right On!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WildmynewsigAlaska TM