Rem 115gr Standard Pressure Water + Denim Test

El Chivato · August 10, 2007, 12:56 AM

Handgun: Taurus PT92, 5" barrel
Ammunition: Remington UMC 9mm standard pressure, 115gr, packaged in a 100 round "value pack" L9MM1B

I was asking around the various gun boards about this stuff a while back. I received mixed opinions as to how it would perform, so I went ahead and bought it with the intention of testing it. If the tests came out in its favor I would relegate it to second string carry ammuntion and woods ammunition. Here is the test using four layers of denim and water jugs.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...est/InGun2.jpg
Most important to any handgun/ammuniton combination is the the ability of the ammunition to function reliably in the firearm. Though I've done some gunsmithing to my Taurus to make it ultra-reliable, bullet shape never hurts either. As you can see, this Remington hollowpoint has almost a hardball profile.

Being old tech, this round is representative of older style hollowpoints designed to be used in pistols originally engineered to feed ball reliably. It works.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...sidesetup3.jpg
My standard water test setup...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...rontsetup1.jpg
And from the front...

That four layers of denim is thicker than it may look on camera. Take the leg of your blue jeans and fold it in half - imagine a hollowpoint bullet performing properly after being plugged with that much material.

Usually I insert a movie of the shot here, but I was shooting alone today.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../1results1.jpg
After the shot I discovered two things: First, the bullet didn't seem affected in its performance by the denim as the front jug exploded and landed on the ground, seperated from the denim which had been taped on well. The second thing I noticed was that, after shredding the second jug as well as the first, the bullet veered off and disappeared. (I set the jug back up for photographic purposes.)

Though I could postulate what happened from the reaction of the milk jugs, I didn't have a bullet and therefore nothing was "solid." I set up two more jugs which were meant to be used to test my carry round, the Bonded Golden Saber. That'll have to wait a week or so now.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...rontsetup2.jpg
As you can see, the second setup is the same as the first.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...2frontjug1.jpg
Here is the front jug and denim exactly how they landed after my second shot. The jug seemed to have been launched into the air and was totally shredded, looking as if someone had put a mouse inside and thrown it to the coyotes! This is performance typical to hollowpoints the generation previous to our current "best" crop.

The previous generation of hollowpoints, while they typically expanded well, usually did so in the first few inches. This was true of the Silvertip, and in my experience, true also of the Federal C9BP "Classic" hollowpoint. I used this last to dispatch a sick rabbit once at 15 yards or so, and it took that rabbit apart, looking as if it had expanded almost fully before exiting the broadside shot.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...4andbullet.jpg
These are jug numbers, from right to left, 2, 3, and 4. Notice how jug #2 is blown out, and jug #3 is losing water.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...letcloseup.jpg
I found the spent bullet between jugs #3 and #4.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...st/Results.jpg
The bullet exhibited textbook expansion after passing through four layers of denim. Again, fold the leg of your blue jeans and imagine the bullet performing well after passing through that barrier. As well, I didn't measure correctly. These jugs are 6" thick instead of the 4" I am used to. Penetration was closer to 18" in water, or about 9" in ballistic gelatin.

Sorry about that, folks. The milk people need to tell me when they're going to change form factor! Oops! Seriously, I should have measured before jumping to conclusions. I will do so from now on.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...asurements.jpg
A closer shot of the expanded bullet. As I said, textbook performance...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...eperation2.jpg
Curiously, the jacket and core did not try to seperate. Though I'm not too concerned about it, I may email Remington to see if they've begun bonding everything...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../FrontShot.jpg
From the front, you can see how the jacket peeled back. Though not designed like the Black Talon, Ranger or SXT, this jacket is fairly sharp and protrudes enough that I'd guess it would see some "action" if used for serious purposes.

Honestly, this stuff surprised me. Though I carried the +P version of this ammuntion while waiting for some premium stuff to arrive, I didn't truly feel comfortable with it and used it for range fodder as soon as the premium ammunition arrived.

Not the best these days by any stretch of the imagination, this Remington ammunition, now (perhaps sadly) relegated to discount store bulk ammunition sales, still has plenty of punch to do most jobs which need doing. While not top-of-the-line any longer for barrier penetration, having been designed to the older penetration specification of 10" - 12" instead of the 12" - 14" we usually accept as the golden standard today, this old style ammo should still do the job in most defensive situations encountered by law enforcement and legally armed private citizens.

I'm favorably impressed.

Josh <><

Mark54g · August 10, 2007, 08:04 AM

I wonder what 123-127gr ammo of the same type would do. I find 115gr to be on the light side for hollowpoint carry/defense stuff. I would not blink if I had to use it, or lighter (100gr Pow'rBall) but it all depends on how fast it goes, how deep it goes and how quickly and powerfully it expands, and when).

El Chivato · August 12, 2007, 01:35 AM

Next up is the 124gr +P Bonded Golden Saber. I just gotta drink my milk!

Josh <><

Wildalaska · August 12, 2007, 01:40 AM

it's all the same.

WildbuthavefunAlaska TM

Tom2 · August 12, 2007, 09:35 AM

Have they improved the bullet in the Remington HP load? I got some years ago and the bullet jackets at the edge of the HP were really ragged and sharp. And burrs sticking off. Like, cheaply made. Those sharp noses would hang up on the ramps of several types of 9MM pistols for me. Feeding failures. They fired fine if chambered OK. I did take a file to some and clean up the noses which helped I guess. Hope they have improved the bullet quality.

45Marlin carbine · August 12, 2007, 10:32 AM

thanks for the good write-up and fotos, Chivato. I buy Rem slugs frequently as price-wise they are good value. I also buy the Golden Saber they aren't much more and surprise! they are the best groupng pistol slugs I've tried and that includes Nosler brand which cost twice as much. interested to see your future tests. thanks again.

El Chivato · August 12, 2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Have they improved the bullet in the Remington HP load? I got some years ago and the bullet jackets at the edge of the HP were really ragged and sharp. And burrs sticking off. Like, cheaply made. Those sharp noses would hang up on the ramps of several types of 9MM pistols for me. Feeding failures. They fired fine if chambered OK. I did take a file to some and clean up the noses which helped I guess. Hope they have improved the bullet quality.

Very much so, it would seem. Though I've not seen the example you're referencing, these do remind me of Federal C9BP.

Quote:

thanks for the good write-up and fotos, Chivato. I buy Rem slugs frequently as price-wise they are good value. I also buy the Golden Saber they aren't much more and surprise! they are the best groupng pistol slugs I've tried and that includes Nosler brand which cost twice as much. interested to see your future tests. thanks again.

You're welcome. Please, call me Josh. I've kept "El Chivato" because, though I go by "Joshua M. Smith" on most other boards anymore, there is already a "Joshua" here and it avoids confusion.

When I get the time I'll see if I can't get the rest of the tests over here. I post pics but for this board I have to remove the img tags, and that might take a bit. You can see my tests, and others', at http://handgunsandammo.proboards36.com/ if you don't wish to wait.

There's one on a Rossi M68 revolver, a Carpati M95 (Romanian PPK clone with a 1911ish grip feel), some 124gr +P EFMJ, and I forget what else is there.

Thanks again,

Josh <><

August 10, 2007, 12:56 AM	#1
El Chivato Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Posts: 286	Rem 115gr Standard Pressure Water + Denim Test Handgun: Taurus PT92, 5" barrel Ammunition: Remington UMC 9mm standard pressure, 115gr, packaged in a 100 round "value pack" L9MM1B I was asking around the various gun boards about this stuff a while back. I received mixed opinions as to how it would perform, so I went ahead and bought it with the intention of testing it. If the tests came out in its favor I would relegate it to second string carry ammuntion and woods ammunition. Here is the test using four layers of denim and water jugs. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...est/InGun2.jpg Most important to any handgun/ammuniton combination is the the ability of the ammunition to function reliably in the firearm. Though I've done some gunsmithing to my Taurus to make it ultra-reliable, bullet shape never hurts either. As you can see, this Remington hollowpoint has almost a hardball profile. Being old tech, this round is representative of older style hollowpoints designed to be used in pistols originally engineered to feed ball reliably. It works. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...sidesetup3.jpg My standard water test setup... http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...rontsetup1.jpg And from the front... That four layers of denim is thicker than it may look on camera. Take the leg of your blue jeans and fold it in half - imagine a hollowpoint bullet performing properly after being plugged with that much material. Usually I insert a movie of the shot here, but I was shooting alone today. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../1results1.jpg After the shot I discovered two things: First, the bullet didn't seem affected in its performance by the denim as the front jug exploded and landed on the ground, seperated from the denim which had been taped on well. The second thing I noticed was that, after shredding the second jug as well as the first, the bullet veered off and disappeared. (I set the jug back up for photographic purposes.) Though I could postulate what happened from the reaction of the milk jugs, I didn't have a bullet and therefore nothing was "solid." I set up two more jugs which were meant to be used to test my carry round, the Bonded Golden Saber. That'll have to wait a week or so now. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...rontsetup2.jpg As you can see, the second setup is the same as the first. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...2frontjug1.jpg Here is the front jug and denim exactly how they landed after my second shot. The jug seemed to have been launched into the air and was totally shredded, looking as if someone had put a mouse inside and thrown it to the coyotes! This is performance typical to hollowpoints the generation previous to our current "best" crop. The previous generation of hollowpoints, while they typically expanded well, usually did so in the first few inches. This was true of the Silvertip, and in my experience, true also of the Federal C9BP "Classic" hollowpoint. I used this last to dispatch a sick rabbit once at 15 yards or so, and it took that rabbit apart, looking as if it had expanded almost fully before exiting the broadside shot. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...4andbullet.jpg These are jug numbers, from right to left, 2, 3, and 4. Notice how jug #2 is blown out, and jug #3 is losing water. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...letcloseup.jpg I found the spent bullet between jugs #3 and #4. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...st/Results.jpg The bullet exhibited textbook expansion after passing through four layers of denim. Again, fold the leg of your blue jeans and imagine the bullet performing well after passing through that barrier. As well, I didn't measure correctly. These jugs are 6" thick instead of the 4" I am used to. Penetration was closer to 18" in water, or about 9" in ballistic gelatin. Sorry about that, folks. The milk people need to tell me when they're going to change form factor! Oops! Seriously, I should have measured before jumping to conclusions. I will do so from now on. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...asurements.jpg A closer shot of the expanded bullet. As I said, textbook performance... http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...eperation2.jpg Curiously, the jacket and core did not try to seperate. Though I'm not too concerned about it, I may email Remington to see if they've begun bonding everything... http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../FrontShot.jpg From the front, you can see how the jacket peeled back. Though not designed like the Black Talon, Ranger or SXT, this jacket is fairly sharp and protrudes enough that I'd guess it would see some "action" if used for serious purposes. Honestly, this stuff surprised me. Though I carried the +P version of this ammuntion while waiting for some premium stuff to arrive, I didn't truly feel comfortable with it and used it for range fodder as soon as the premium ammunition arrived. Not the best these days by any stretch of the imagination, this Remington ammunition, now (perhaps sadly) relegated to discount store bulk ammunition sales, still has plenty of punch to do most jobs which need doing. While not top-of-the-line any longer for barrier penetration, having been designed to the older penetration specification of 10" - 12" instead of the 12" - 14" we usually accept as the golden standard today, this old style ammo should still do the job in most defensive situations encountered by law enforcement and legally armed private citizens. I'm favorably impressed. Josh <><

August 10, 2007, 08:04 AM	#2
Mark54g Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 1,216	I wonder what 123-127gr ammo of the same type would do. I find 115gr to be on the light side for hollowpoint carry/defense stuff. I would not blink if I had to use it, or lighter (100gr Pow'rBall) but it all depends on how fast it goes, how deep it goes and how quickly and powerfully it expands, and when). __________________ CZ 75B Stainless Beretta PX4 F Series 9mm & U22 Neos 6" black ------------------------- www.therallypoint.org

August 12, 2007, 01:35 AM	#3
El Chivato Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Posts: 286	Next up is the 124gr +P Bonded Golden Saber. I just gotta drink my milk! Josh <><

August 12, 2007, 01:40 AM	#4
Wildalaska Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 12,486	it's all the same. WildbuthavefunAlaska TM

August 12, 2007, 09:35 AM	#5
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,554	Have they improved the bullet in the Remington HP load? I got some years ago and the bullet jackets at the edge of the HP were really ragged and sharp. And burrs sticking off. Like, cheaply made. Those sharp noses would hang up on the ramps of several types of 9MM pistols for me. Feeding failures. They fired fine if chambered OK. I did take a file to some and clean up the noses which helped I guess. Hope they have improved the bullet quality.

August 12, 2007, 10:32 AM	#6
45Marlin carbine Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	thanks for the good write-up and fotos, Chivato. I buy Rem slugs frequently as price-wise they are good value. I also buy the Golden Saber they aren't much more and surprise! they are the best groupng pistol slugs I've tried and that includes Nosler brand which cost twice as much. interested to see your future tests. thanks again.