What is it with the "Holy-er than Thou Attitude"?

FS2K · August 10, 2007, 03:45 AM

Collecting guns is just one of my hobbies. I like to tinker with things, always have and I find building and fabricating mechanical stuff very rewarding.
Classic Car restoration is a multi-million dollar industry in the US alone, and it shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. Within that particular field you have your restoration people, and your rebuild people. Both desciplines take talent and knowledge to do well, and while very different, each side can appreciate the craftmanship involved with what they do.

I enjoy looking at a totally restored '32 5 Window (stock)Ford allot, and it's the little details that catch your eye with those cars: the wooden trim and inner panelling, the beautiful simplicity of machine it's self right down to the door hinges, but because I appreciate it doesn't mean I would invest my time and money into building a car like it. If I had found this particular car in it's untouched state restoration would have been the last thing on my mind for it.

Personally, I would Pro-Street it. Guaranteed.

Things are different in the gun world though aren't they? While restoration and preservation is widely excepted, it seems that rebuild's and reconstruction/performance enhancing isn't. That's fine. That's the way things are. I just want to get a better understanding of why it's the way it is.

The thing I don't understand is how the the people involved in collecting original guns can think of themselves as surperior to those who don't think the way they do. The term "Bubba" seems to be a popular name for the enthusiasts like myself who aren't afraid to customize their firearms to suit themselves perfectly.

I fail to see how my customizing of my 1912 production Colt 1911 #70 or my 1943 Inland M1 Carbine would effect those who enjoy preserving guns. I definately don't understand how it would give anyone the right to put a derrogertory lable to what I do.

Here are some facts I'd like you to consider:

1. Yes, the Hotrod projects I chose for my base starting blocks were very nice individual guns and were untouched at the start of my projects.

2. Yes, I am well aware of the re-sale value each of these guns could have gotten me. The 1911 was part of a widows collection left behind by her husband, and the M1 Carbine I found in a neighbors attic, wrapped in greased paper and plastic. I got both for very cheap.

3. PROBABLY the MOST IMPORTANT FACT: You had NO chance at owning either of these guns once they were in my possesion. There's no sense in telling me how much money I could have made because I don't care. I've always wanted to have a customized old "Antique" 1911, and the Carbine was a bonus. I fail to see the purpose of criticizing other people for doing what they want to do with their own stuff.

4. Just because I am willing to customize ANY firearm I come across doesn't mean that I will. I have no use for a gun I can't or won't shoot, so with that in mind, I would never dish out the cash needed to purchase a collector grade gun. That's why when this particular 1911 came up, she was perfect for the project: Older Model, CLEAN and in good working order, and hardly used, for dirt cheap. I should have bought more, but at the time I was on a lean budget! (There were 7-8 1911's lined up in a rifle case that I could choose from, including some newer Colt's and a pair of Norinco twins that I almost bought instead! LOL!)

5. Anyone can go out and buy a new 1911, take it apart, replace some pieces and do some clean up work inside and get themselves a customized 1911. Or, you could go out and just buy one that is completely done and have it as part of your collection. But very few people and no one I am aware of has a circa 1912 Colt Manefacturing .45 ACP 1911 that has it's slide mated to the frame, matched/lightened Hammer & Sear, fit KART barrel, Bo-Mar adjustable sights, original Flat Mainspring Housing (minus Lanyard loop) stainless guiderod w 22# lb recoil spring, custom fit and lightened aluminum trigger, 7 port compensator with everything but the original frame it'self brand new right down to the plunger tube and stainless allen head grip screws like mine. I just sent her away to be refinished and will post pictures when she gets back.

To me, THAT is a collectors piece. Not just something old and in good shape, but something entirely unique because of it's rarity as well as it's pristine workable condition. It isn't just another old 1911, she is one of a kind, the only one in existance like it. I put allot of time and effort into creating a gun that is totally catored to me, and I am proud to have it as part of my collection. Sure, it could possibly be duplicated, but how many 1912 1911 doner Frame & slides do you know of can be easily accquired to match my gun to start such a project?

I have seen 100's of customized 1911 type handguns, and I have seen a few old 1911's that are collector pieces that are in as good shape as my gun was when I got it, but like I have said, I have yet to see another "Antique" COLT 1911 custom like mine.

That gun is like my own little slice of customization heaven. She's like a '32 chop-top coupe with a supercharged 454 big block. A beautiful blend of old time styling and modern day performance.

If collecting original guns is your thing, I have no problem with that. Seems to me like a bunch of gun owners/collectors are more concerned with how much they could get for a certain gun they owned than how the gun handles and shoots. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's your guns and you can do whatever you see fit with them.

So why is it that what I and people like me do with our guns matters to these people so much? As far as I'm concerned We gun owners should all be on the same side, and that collecting as a hobby is collecting.

I didn't make this post to start an argument, I just want to get an idea on why what I do with my own guns should matter so much to other people. Personally I don't see why it should, but this question comes up everytime I read a post here about modifying old guns comes up, and why those willing to work on old guns are labled "Bubba's" is all! LOL!

Why all the Hate Oldtimers? Why?

Gbro · August 10, 2007, 05:36 AM

There just aren't that many people interested in defacing a work of art. You will have to remember, when some of us pick up that old JMB design, we are in awe of that great inventors talent. To deface something like that, well it just doesn't make any sense.
Sorry, but thats life.
Your whine is however, high on a 1-10 scale .....like a 9.6

Billy Sparks · August 10, 2007, 06:27 AM

To a degree I agree with you in that it is your gun, your money, your business. My problem is I really want a old Army issue 1911 but they are hard to find and the prices are high because of the number of people that have purchased them and modified them thereby reducing the supply. With guns, unlike cars, especially military arms you know that generally one person carried this weapon. For me at least I am connecting with the history of the piece. Add to that that some people have the mistaken notion that they are going to make money on firearms like they would on stocks and bonds.

nate45 · August 10, 2007, 06:27 AM

I personally do not like to see old mil-surp weapons customized.

However you as the owner are free to do whatever you like and makes you happy,

My Dad likes to add custom touches to almost every rifle he owns inlays in stocks, gold accents,ect.

Recently he got a S&W 19-4 4in with the rare configuration of target hammer and target trigger it was new in the box.

He reshaped the stock grips and painted the sights and he shoots it.

I as someone who likes collecting cringed but the fact remains it's his and he can do whatever he wants with it no matter what I or anyone else thinks.

kennybs plbg · August 10, 2007, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Personally, I would Pro-Street it. Guaranteed

If you found a solid 64 chevy nova II or a 67 GTX would you chop that up and "pro street" it?

Candy apple red and flames may be cool but that 63 sport fury in baby powder blue will always have the heart of a true mopar fan.

kenny b

DonR101395 · August 10, 2007, 06:51 AM

I've taken a different approach since I like to both shoot and collect. If I buy something that is "collectible", say I want to modify the stock I buy another stock and modify it then put the original in storage. If I ever decide to part with it I can put it back in it's original. I've got to say though that most of my collection is comprised of shooters. It's just what I like. If you like cutting down your M1 into something more usable for you, do it. You found it, bought it and are the only one losing money in the end........as well as helping increase the value of what is left by making those hard to find guns a little harder to find.

Redneckrepairs · August 10, 2007, 07:32 AM

Hey They are your guns , do what you will with them . I am really puzzled tho as to just why you feel the need for others to validate your decision . If you want to take a couple of nice old guns and destroy the collector value of them that is fine by me .. i dont own them you do . Do not however expect me or others to validate your decision to do it . Its your choice , and your guns .. either get it on or dont but quit bitching about disapproval of others if you take such a course of action .

VUPDblue · August 10, 2007, 08:27 AM

An older gentleman that I know keeps a $20,000 piece of American History in an old shoebox under his bed. Breaks my heart every time I think about it.

See my thread about it here http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ighlight=Found

Manedwolf · August 10, 2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

To a degree I agree with you in that it is your gun, your money, your business. My problem is I really want a old Army issue 1911 but they are hard to find and the prices are high because of the number of people that have purchased them and modified them thereby reducing the supply.

In other words, you're angry at capitalism?

Webleymkv · August 10, 2007, 09:21 AM

I'm not going to condemn you because as you said, they're your guns and you can do as you like with them. I will have to say that it makes me wince to hear about it. I personally wouldn't turn an original '32 Ford into a hot rod. I appreciate the history behind the gun and to modify it, in my mind, lessens it's historical significance which I view as a waste that cannot be undone. Besides this, there are probably much better platforms to build a custom 1911 on than a circa 1912 Colt.

Wildalaska · August 10, 2007, 09:37 AM

I think Bubbaing a good collectible is horrible.

You want to bubba up an original 1911, go ahead, your gun your money. But to seek validation? If that 1912 was collectible ( ie overall un messed with in good condition with all original parts, without pitting etc) it's the same to me as tossing paint on the Pieta. Criminal at worst (in the adjectively sense) tacky at best.

Sorry.

WildiwokeupforthisonesorryAlaska TM

Fremmer · August 10, 2007, 10:06 AM

Some people who buy guns try to modify them without the requisite knowledge and/or mechanical ability. A guy is a lot more likely to take a hacksaw to a barrel (or to try and modify the trigger pull) than he is to try and modify a car, which takes a lot more money, knowledge, time, space, and ability. My brother-in-law is a gearhead, and I like to look at his Camero and motorcycle mags. Those aftermarket parts are expensive! Somebody like me won't even try to add them simply because of the cost, notwithstanding I realize that I don't have the requisite knowledge to add aftermarket headers, and to worry about the compression (?) etc.

But things are easier to mess with on guns. Most can afford to buy a new trigger, grip safety, etc., and a lot of people think that you can just swap parts without having to actually make adjustments and know how those parts work with other parts. So now you've got a gun that's been screwed-up by bubba, and bubba eventually figures this out, because the gun just doesn't run well or, is downright dangerous ("I filed the sear here and there"). But Bubba won't take it to the gunsmith so that the smith can fix all of the screwed up mods that bubba did. Instead, bubba just sells the gun. Which is fine (buyer beware), but if bubba messed with that trigger, sear, or other innards, the gun might be dangerous, the new owner might not realize this until there is an AD. Or, if bubba keeps the gun, the guys that bubba is hunting with are around a gun with a screwed up trigger.

Those old guns have a lot of historical value, and it is a shame to see someone take an old Colt 1911 or SAA and completely screw it up so that it'll never be the same. But that's just a matter of opinion and taste, I suppose.

Edited to add: I'm no old-timer. I don't know as much about guns as the old-timers do.

IZinterrogator · August 10, 2007, 10:31 AM

What I hate about people sporterizing and customizing old military weapons is that there are alternatives. Want to turn a Garand into a hunting rifle? Buy the current Springfield Armory version and butcher that up. Want to trick out an old 1911? Buy the Colt Series 70 repro, or if that is not retro enough, buy the WWI repro. But don't destroy the historical value of the old guns. It reminds me of an incident with David Wells when he was pitching for the Yankees. He bought a jersey that had been worn by Babe Ruth and wore it in a game. One of his teammates remarked that he had taken a very expensive collectible and made it worthless. Same mistake being made here.

2nd Amendment · August 10, 2007, 10:42 AM

I have the same opinion regarding the "customizing" of both old cars and old guns. If I drag an old car out of a field and there's not much left then it's fair game to become whatever I want. But when I bought a solid original from the 40's or 50's or 60's that simply needed TLC, no. You don't cut something like that up.

Same with guns. I've got a couple old Enfields in the closet that I may do a lot of horrid things to. But the flipside is, if I don't they are basically junk. Well beyond being returned to quality representatives of their breed. So if your custom whatever, car or gun, starts in your hands as a sad old wreck, more power to you. But if you take something nice and do more than screw on some custom wheels or some custom grips I admit I'll be one of those standing there shaking my head. Sorry.

Manedwolf · August 10, 2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

What I hate about people sporterizing and customizing old military weapons is that there are alternatives. Want to turn a Garand into a hunting rifle? Buy the current Springfield Armory version and butcher that up.

Badly beat-up Greek-return Garand via CMP: $300
New Springfield M1A: $1200

Not Yours.

You really have no say in the matter, since you didn't buy it. If you want to preserve an old milsurp...BUY IT!

Jart · August 10, 2007, 10:59 AM

It's your money, you should do what you want. But if you're really asking why some would get a little wrapped around the axle, I'll offer some conjecture:

The automotive analogy fails, due primarily to the different rates of advancement in automobile technology vs. firearms.

If you pro-street a '32 Ford it goes faster, handles better, stops shorter, might even be more comfortable and the sound system is likely much improved.

Work over a pristine 1911 and you've in all likelihood made it less reliable, and only marginally more accurate. The FLGR gains you less than nothing, you can't buy a sear / hammer that'll work better than matching the Kuhnhausen values on the originals. Grab the sear spring and give it yank and you'll have your light trigger.

A 60 year old Ford won’t win any races being simply restored. The 1911 will acquit itself quite nicely. A 1939 vintage 1911 is like a 32 Ford that somehow shipped with a 32 valve Shelby, McLaren suspension, Baer binders, cold air and Blaupunkt. It's a lot harder to make real improvements and a lot easier to make pseudo improvements.

What you would do to a 1911 isn't pro-streeting it. It's ricing it. Big exhaust tips, stickers (heavy on the "R"), slammed suspension, spinners, a 99.00 paint job and purple peeling window tint. It will look like a poseur to many. How would your automotive buds react if instead of a decent pro-street you took the 32 Ford and simply stickered, spinnered, canned and slammed it without doing much of anything to improve its transportation value or performance?

That said, I can't think of a fate much worse for a firearm than to be slammed into the darkness next the mutual fund certificates. If tarting it up is what it takes for the thing to be shot regularly, then I’m all for it.

Even I might cringe at doing so to a 1911 with Union Signal stamped on the slide, Alvin Yorks signature on the grips and a Colt letter rolled up in the barrel, but it’s your money – whatever floats your boat.

deanadell · August 10, 2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Collecting guns is just one of my hobbies.

I just keep telling myself (and others) that "I am not a gun collector.....I am a gun accumulator"

AJD21 · August 10, 2007, 11:22 AM

Your going to find that most, if not everyone, is going to think what you did or are doing is a very poor idea. If you honestly don't understand why, then no amount of explaining on my part or anyone else's will make a difference. But, I suspect you do, because you've gone to great lengths to justify it to all of us and yourself.

But like others have said, if your seeking approval from others what your doing, your not going to find it. It has nothing to do with us thinking we are better than you. Again, if you don't understand why already then no amount of explaining will help.

Derius_T · August 10, 2007, 11:39 AM

Alot of you guys don't make sense to me. Are you historians and collectors, or are you shooters? I mean, sure its nice to have a few rare old collector items that have some special value, I can understand that, being a history and gun nut both. But at the same time, I understand the value of taking a 50 year old gun with 50 year old parts, and 50 year old gun manufacturing skill and technology, and giving them an update if you were going to shoot them alot.

It would be nice to have a pristine early 60's model mustang, completely original, 1 owner, low, low miles. (and I have) Have you ever tried to DRIVE that pristine machine? If you honestly have, you will see how fast that 40 year old museum quality car will start to fall apart and fail. Was there a design flaw in the vehicle? Hell no. BUT IT IS 40 YEARS OLD! 40 year old parts, no matter how well they were made, FAIL, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination perform as well as a new customized model. Now if you are gonna leave it in the garage and LOOK at it, FINE. But if you ever plan on DRIVING it, it is going to need some work.

The same with the pristine 1911. Is anything wrong with the original design? Hell no. Is it beautiful and a peice of history? Hell yes! If you are going to LOOK at it, by all means, leave it alone. But if you want to do with the gun what it was designed and BUILT to do, you are going to have to update those 40 year old parts. Now some will argue that they have this or that old gun that fires fine, and you may. But under heavy use, that old gun will wear out. Metal parts fail with age, wear, and time.

And another thing, people accuse the poster of whining, or bitching, or seeking validation ect. He was just asking a question. Maybe YOU are the ones who need validation, in your obsession to take a weapon that was built and designed for SHOOTING, and turning it into a very old, very expensive, paperweight. Do you think thats what Sam Colt built that gun for?

Fremmer · August 10, 2007, 11:46 AM

Derius, he asked for our opinion and got it. And not everyone has told him not to modify his guns. Ultimately, they are his guns, so he can do what he pleases with them. We're not trying to slam him, we're just responding to his Thread. No offense intended!

AJD21 · August 10, 2007, 11:58 AM

But at the same time, I understand the value of taking a 50 year old gun with 50 year old parts, and 50 year old gun manufacturing skill and technology, and giving them an update if you were going to shoot them alot.

Well, if we were to be talking about a 50 year old Colt 1911. You would probably find that 50 year old Colt would put most currently produced 1911's to shame in terms of fit and finish.

It would be nice to have a pristine early 60's model mustang, completely original, 1 owner, low, low miles. (and I have) Have you ever tried to DRIVE that pristine machine? If you honestly have, you will see how fast that 40 year old museum quality car will start to fall apart and fail. Was there a design flaw in the vehicle? Hell no. BUT IT IS 40 YEARS OLD! 40 year old parts, no matter how well they were made, FAIL, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination perform as well as a new customized model. Now if you are gonna leave it in the garage and LOOK at it, FINE. But if you ever plan on DRIVING it, it is going to need some work.

Cars and guns aren't the same. An old Colt 1911 will perform just as well as a new 1911.

The same with the pristine 1911. Is anything wrong with the original design? Hell no. Is it beautiful and a peice of history? Hell yes! If you are going to LOOK at it, by all means, leave it alone. But if you want to do with the gun what it was designed and BUILT to do, you are going to have to update those 40 year old parts. Now some will argue that they have this or that old gun that fires fine, and you may. But under heavy use, that old gun will wear out. Metal parts fail with age, wear, and time.

A 40 year old 1911 will be made entirely of barstock and forged steel that is in fact superior to casting and MIM parts which current 1911's are mostly composed of.

And another thing, people accuse the poster of whining, or bitching, or seeking validation ect. He was just asking a question. Maybe YOU are the ones who need validation, in your obsession to take a weapon that was built and designed for SHOOTING, and turning it into a very old, very expensive, paperweight. Do you think thats what Sam Colt built that gun for?

I don't see many people saying he shouldn't shoot it. I think many people wouldn't care if he shot it or not. Then again, their are alot cheaper option out there for shooting. But if you want to shoot a valuable collectable just because you feel the need to then go ahead. But shooting it and making alot of permant modifications to it are different, at least to me they are.

FS2K · August 10, 2007, 12:02 PM

My post has nothing to do with a desire to validate what I or anyone else does, it was made to ask as to why you "collectors" can't except the fact that gun enthusiasts aren't all cut from the same cookie cutter. And oddly enough I got my answer.

I made my post in a non-confrontational manner, yet, some of you chime in acting exactly as I predicted! I find that amusing.

I'm not looking to start an argument here, and I don't think my request was too much to ask. But apparently, some people really do feel as though what they have to say to matters to the individuals who are content doing their own thing. Not everyone see's "Value" in the same way as you do. There are some of us who don't care what re-sale cost they could get if they sold a particular piece. For some, the value of any said item be it an old Handgun or pickup truck lays in it's ability to perform, not just sit there looking pretty, or in most "Antique" items cases : pretty darn well for being 80 years old and not that tattered or rusted up.

Production guns, machinery in general are just that: run of the mill examples of a mass produced item. While there may be artistic aspects apparent in the machines design, there is nothing artistic about an antique production line product in itself. Yes, I understand that some examples have weathered the test of time very well, and for that they can be considered rare, but a work of art? No more so than a new production model of the same design. There is a difference between "well preserved" and what might be considered artistic or unique.

In any case, if it no longer exists to be used as it was intended to by design, (due to worn or fragile parts) then that item ceases to be, and it becomes just something else to look at. My opinion of course.

Again, I can appreciate what others find interesting or valuable when it comes to antiques, and if it's your thing then fine. So why is it that what I choose to do with some of the Antiques I (or other frabricators/reconstructors) come across seem to bother so many other people? In the Automotive recon trade fabricators take pride in starting a project from something most people wouldn't give a second glance and transforming it into a better than new condition totally customized to fit unique piece of Art. That's art: something you create from a single thought into reality, not just wrapping some gun up in a greasy rag and busting it out 50 years later.

Automotive Fabricators get thier fair share of critiscism from the resotration crowd too, so it isn't a surprize that there would be members here who didn't like the idea of hotrodding old guns too. But that doesn't make cutting down their beliefs and projects right.

Maybe it would be a good idea for those who found themselves emotionally effected by what I had to say here to ask yourselves the questions I've asked?

Why does what other people do to thier own guns bother you so much?

What difference does the "re-sale" value of a gun make to an owner who doesn't care about such things?

And why is it so hard for you to except the fact that some owners have no problem with the idea of modifying their guns for a more personalized fit?

I think there's a big misconception that many of you collectors have about us fabricators; and that's that we don't have any respect for the guns we modify. There are people like that sure, but they don't respresent all of us. Some older gun designs like the 1911 or M1 Garand do have a certain mystique about them, one that a fabricator appreciates just as much as a 'purist' does with the exception that the fabricators intend on using thier guns as they were meant to be; out on a field, in the woods, or at the range on a regular basis. Wood furinature may have once served it's purpose, but old wood doesn't tend to fair too well in rain & mud. Iron peep sights that were perfect for battle may not be the optimal choice for a gun being used for something else today. When an individual takes his Dad's old M1A and cut's it's barrel down, puts on a sythetic stock and optics on it, he's called a "Bubba". When Springfield does it, the call it a SOCOM 16 and are praised for the innovations they have incooperated into the M14's old design.

I like the lines of some older guns. I like the way they look, and I like to read about the histories some of them have behind them. But that won't stop me from modifying ANY gun that I intend on keeping for myself that doesn't fit me quite right.

It isn't a Black and White deal here. I don't actively pursue old guns to modify on every chance I get. Not all of the older guns appeal to me, therefore they are in no risk of being customized by me. I simply won't buy it.

**Oh, and as for my 1911 becoming an expensive paperweight? I seriously doubt it. The Frame & Slide (the only things I kept from the original) were in pristine condition; never refinished (until now, just touched up) and as clean as any frame I could have started with today. All the pin holes were tight and the gun showed very little wear. I built this gun to shoot, and she shoots very well. Just because she's a little on the mature side doesn't mean she can't handle some action.

Derius_T · August 10, 2007, 12:24 PM

ADJ21 wrote:

Quote:

Well, if we were to be talking about a 50 year old Colt 1911. You would probably find that 50 year old Colt would put most currently produced 1911's to shame in terms of fit and finish.

Seriously, stop it....

Quote:

Cars and guns aren't the same. An old Colt 1911 will perform just as well as a new 1911.

No, they won't. 1st it depends on the condition of the old colt. If it is in poor condition, obviously a NEW gun will out perform it. And, even if you take a prisine 50 year old mass produced, cookie-cutter 1911, and put it up against one of the new technologically advanced 1911's, it would perform just as well??? PLEASE.....

Quote:

A 40 year old 1911 will be made entirely of barstock and forged steel that is in fact superior to casting and MIM parts which current 1911's are mostly composed of.

C'mon, thats like saying an original 1932 ford motor, because it is built of sturdier materials, is superior to the finely tuned motors of today, built with composites and lighter, more durable metals.

I have fired both, an old style colt 1911 that belonged to my grandfather, and a new colt model 1911. To say that the new weapon out performed the old one would be an understatement. No matter how much to WANT that old dinosaur, machine stamped on an assembly like out of a chunk of inferior metal to be BETTER performance wise than an up to date weapon, its just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

If that were the case, then why would colt bother updating and renovating the 1911 at all? Why not just keep stamping them out like it was 1940? Get real.....

2nd Amendment · August 10, 2007, 12:34 PM

Sorry Derius but I have my grandfathers 1964 Cadillac DeVille. I drive it. Not a lot because I want to keep the miles down but still, I drive it. Know what breaks? Nothing. I haven't pulled any maintenance on it beyond fluids, filters alignment in 6 years or more. That's more than I can say about my big diesel 'burb or the Fleetwood. The fact is, there WAS a build quality in the past that was lost(ignored) for a very long time. Also, how you treat something determines breakage every bit as much as age. Considering it came factory with AM/FM, Climate Control, leather and power everything plus a balsy 429 I don't feel I am sacrificing anything to anyone driving something newer, either.

Anyway, just a counterpoint, not really an argument.

Manedwolf · August 10, 2007, 12:39 PM

To those who, indeed, seem to want everyone else to preserve all guns in the dark, untouched and uncustomized, I'd ask if this picture offends you, too?

This is a working DC-3, still employed in carrying goods every day, a workhorse. It was likely built in the 1930's or 1940's, could have been an airliner or C-47. As you can see there, it's been converted to turboprops, because while the airframe is one of the sturdiest ever designed, radial engines cost too much to operate in the modern world. The cockpit probably also has a new instrument panel with GPS and color LCDs for greater pilot efficiency and safety.

Now, this DC-3 could be silent and still in a museum, a dead husk never to fly again. Or it could be in the air where it belongs, among the clouds, because someone updated it to new turboprop engines.

Which would you rather see?

August 10, 2007, 03:45 AM	#1
FS2K Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 1,853	What is it with the "Holy-er than Thou Attitude"? Collecting guns is just one of my hobbies. I like to tinker with things, always have and I find building and fabricating mechanical stuff very rewarding. Classic Car restoration is a multi-million dollar industry in the US alone, and it shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. Within that particular field you have your restoration people, and your rebuild people. Both desciplines take talent and knowledge to do well, and while very different, each side can appreciate the craftmanship involved with what they do. I enjoy looking at a totally restored '32 5 Window (stock)Ford allot, and it's the little details that catch your eye with those cars: the wooden trim and inner panelling, the beautiful simplicity of machine it's self right down to the door hinges, but because I appreciate it doesn't mean I would invest my time and money into building a car like it. If I had found this particular car in it's untouched state restoration would have been the last thing on my mind for it. Personally, I would Pro-Street it. Guaranteed. Things are different in the gun world though aren't they? While restoration and preservation is widely excepted, it seems that rebuild's and reconstruction/performance enhancing isn't. That's fine. That's the way things are. I just want to get a better understanding of why it's the way it is. The thing I don't understand is how the the people involved in collecting original guns can think of themselves as surperior to those who don't think the way they do. The term "Bubba" seems to be a popular name for the enthusiasts like myself who aren't afraid to customize their firearms to suit themselves perfectly. I fail to see how my customizing of my 1912 production Colt 1911 #70 or my 1943 Inland M1 Carbine would effect those who enjoy preserving guns. I definately don't understand how it would give anyone the right to put a derrogertory lable to what I do. Here are some facts I'd like you to consider: 1. Yes, the Hotrod projects I chose for my base starting blocks were very nice individual guns and were untouched at the start of my projects. 2. Yes, I am well aware of the re-sale value each of these guns could have gotten me. The 1911 was part of a widows collection left behind by her husband, and the M1 Carbine I found in a neighbors attic, wrapped in greased paper and plastic. I got both for very cheap. 3. PROBABLY the MOST IMPORTANT FACT: You had NO chance at owning either of these guns once they were in my possesion. There's no sense in telling me how much money I could have made because I don't care. I've always wanted to have a customized old "Antique" 1911, and the Carbine was a bonus. I fail to see the purpose of criticizing other people for doing what they want to do with their own stuff. 4. Just because I am willing to customize ANY firearm I come across doesn't mean that I will. I have no use for a gun I can't or won't shoot, so with that in mind, I would never dish out the cash needed to purchase a collector grade gun. That's why when this particular 1911 came up, she was perfect for the project: Older Model, CLEAN and in good working order, and hardly used, for dirt cheap. I should have bought more, but at the time I was on a lean budget! (There were 7-8 1911's lined up in a rifle case that I could choose from, including some newer Colt's and a pair of Norinco twins that I almost bought instead! LOL!) 5. Anyone can go out and buy a new 1911, take it apart, replace some pieces and do some clean up work inside and get themselves a customized 1911. Or, you could go out and just buy one that is completely done and have it as part of your collection. But very few people and no one I am aware of has a circa 1912 Colt Manefacturing .45 ACP 1911 that has it's slide mated to the frame, matched/lightened Hammer & Sear, fit KART barrel, Bo-Mar adjustable sights, original Flat Mainspring Housing (minus Lanyard loop) stainless guiderod w 22# lb recoil spring, custom fit and lightened aluminum trigger, 7 port compensator with everything but the original frame it'self brand new right down to the plunger tube and stainless allen head grip screws like mine. I just sent her away to be refinished and will post pictures when she gets back. To me, THAT is a collectors piece. Not just something old and in good shape, but something entirely unique because of it's rarity as well as it's pristine workable condition. It isn't just another old 1911, she is one of a kind, the only one in existance like it. I put allot of time and effort into creating a gun that is totally catored to me, and I am proud to have it as part of my collection. Sure, it could possibly be duplicated, but how many 1912 1911 doner Frame & slides do you know of can be easily accquired to match my gun to start such a project? I have seen 100's of customized 1911 type handguns, and I have seen a few old 1911's that are collector pieces that are in as good shape as my gun was when I got it, but like I have said, I have yet to see another "Antique" COLT 1911 custom like mine. That gun is like my own little slice of customization heaven. She's like a '32 chop-top coupe with a supercharged 454 big block. A beautiful blend of old time styling and modern day performance. If collecting original guns is your thing, I have no problem with that. Seems to me like a bunch of gun owners/collectors are more concerned with how much they could get for a certain gun they owned than how the gun handles and shoots. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's your guns and you can do whatever you see fit with them. So why is it that what I and people like me do with our guns matters to these people so much? As far as I'm concerned We gun owners should all be on the same side, and that collecting as a hobby is collecting. I didn't make this post to start an argument, I just want to get an idea on why what I do with my own guns should matter so much to other people. Personally I don't see why it should, but this question comes up everytime I read a post here about modifying old guns comes up, and why those willing to work on old guns are labled "Bubba's" is all! LOL! Why all the Hate Oldtimers? Why? __________________ Just a big fan of guns. Last edited by FS2K; August 10, 2007 at 05:04 AM.

August 10, 2007, 05:36 AM	#2
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,279	There just aren't that many people interested in defacing a work of art. You will have to remember, when some of us pick up that old JMB design, we are in awe of that great inventors talent. To deface something like that, well it just doesn't make any sense. Sorry, but thats life. Your whine is however, high on a 1-10 scale .....like a 9.6 __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

August 10, 2007, 06:27 AM	#4
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,356	Its belongs to you I personally do not like to see old mil-surp weapons customized. However you as the owner are free to do whatever you like and makes you happy, My Dad likes to add custom touches to almost every rifle he owns inlays in stocks, gold accents,ect. Recently he got a S&W 19-4 4in with the rare configuration of target hammer and target trigger it was new in the box. He reshaped the stock grips and painted the sights and he shoots it. I as someone who likes collecting cringed but the fact remains it's his and he can do whatever he wants with it no matter what I or anyone else thinks. __________________ 忍者

August 10, 2007, 06:51 AM	#6
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 2,998	I've taken a different approach since I like to both shoot and collect. If I buy something that is "collectible", say I want to modify the stock I buy another stock and modify it then put the original in storage. If I ever decide to part with it I can put it back in it's original. I've got to say though that most of my collection is comprised of shooters. It's just what I like. If you like cutting down your M1 into something more usable for you, do it. You found it, bought it and are the only one losing money in the end........as well as helping increase the value of what is left by making those hard to find guns a little harder to find. __________________ Stupid should hurt! Last edited by DonR101395; August 10, 2007 at 07:34 AM.

August 10, 2007, 08:27 AM	#8
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,920	An older gentleman that I know keeps a $20,000 piece of American History in an old shoebox under his bed. Breaks my heart every time I think about it. See my thread about it here http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ighlight=Found __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

August 10, 2007, 06:27 AM	#3
Billy Sparks Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC 27105 Posts: 736	To a degree I agree with you in that it is your gun, your money, your business. My problem is I really want a old Army issue 1911 but they are hard to find and the prices are high because of the number of people that have purchased them and modified them thereby reducing the supply. With guns, unlike cars, especially military arms you know that generally one person carried this weapon. For me at least I am connecting with the history of the piece. Add to that that some people have the mistaken notion that they are going to make money on firearms like they would on stocks and bonds.

August 10, 2007, 07:32 AM	#7
Redneckrepairs Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 625	Hey They are your guns , do what you will with them . I am really puzzled tho as to just why you feel the need for others to validate your decision . If you want to take a couple of nice old guns and destroy the collector value of them that is fine by me .. i dont own them you do . Do not however expect me or others to validate your decision to do it . Its your choice , and your guns .. either get it on or dont but quit bitching about disapproval of others if you take such a course of action .

August 10, 2007, 09:21 AM	#10
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,381	I'm not going to condemn you because as you said, they're your guns and you can do as you like with them. I will have to say that it makes me wince to hear about it. I personally wouldn't turn an original '32 Ford into a hot rod. I appreciate the history behind the gun and to modify it, in my mind, lessens it's historical significance which I view as a waste that cannot be undone. Besides this, there are probably much better platforms to build a custom 1911 on than a circa 1912 Colt. __________________ Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar

August 10, 2007, 09:37 AM	#11
Wildalaska Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 12,486	I think Bubbaing a good collectible is horrible. You want to bubba up an original 1911, go ahead, your gun your money. But to seek validation? If that 1912 was collectible ( ie overall un messed with in good condition with all original parts, without pitting etc) it's the same to me as tossing paint on the Pieta. Criminal at worst (in the adjectively sense) tacky at best. Sorry. WildiwokeupforthisonesorryAlaska TM

August 10, 2007, 10:06 AM	#12
Fremmer Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,486	Some people who buy guns try to modify them without the requisite knowledge and/or mechanical ability. A guy is a lot more likely to take a hacksaw to a barrel (or to try and modify the trigger pull) than he is to try and modify a car, which takes a lot more money, knowledge, time, space, and ability. My brother-in-law is a gearhead, and I like to look at his Camero and motorcycle mags. Those aftermarket parts are expensive! Somebody like me won't even try to add them simply because of the cost, notwithstanding I realize that I don't have the requisite knowledge to add aftermarket headers, and to worry about the compression (?) etc. But things are easier to mess with on guns. Most can afford to buy a new trigger, grip safety, etc., and a lot of people think that you can just swap parts without having to actually make adjustments and know how those parts work with other parts. So now you've got a gun that's been screwed-up by bubba, and bubba eventually figures this out, because the gun just doesn't run well or, is downright dangerous ("I filed the sear here and there"). But Bubba won't take it to the gunsmith so that the smith can fix all of the screwed up mods that bubba did. Instead, bubba just sells the gun. Which is fine (buyer beware), but if bubba messed with that trigger, sear, or other innards, the gun might be dangerous, the new owner might not realize this until there is an AD. Or, if bubba keeps the gun, the guys that bubba is hunting with are around a gun with a screwed up trigger. Those old guns have a lot of historical value, and it is a shame to see someone take an old Colt 1911 or SAA and completely screw it up so that it'll never be the same. But that's just a matter of opinion and taste, I suppose. Edited to add: I'm no old-timer. I don't know as much about guns as the old-timers do.

August 10, 2007, 10:31 AM	#13
IZinterrogator Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2004 Location: Huachuca City/Fort Huachuca, AZ Posts: 2,326	What I hate about people sporterizing and customizing old military weapons is that there are alternatives. Want to turn a Garand into a hunting rifle? Buy the current Springfield Armory version and butcher that up. Want to trick out an old 1911? Buy the Colt Series 70 repro, or if that is not retro enough, buy the WWI repro. But don't destroy the historical value of the old guns. It reminds me of an incident with David Wells when he was pitching for the Yankees. He bought a jersey that had been worn by Babe Ruth and wore it in a game. One of his teammates remarked that he had taken a very expensive collectible and made it worthless. Same mistake being made here. __________________ "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” - Samuel Adams

August 10, 2007, 10:42 AM	#14
2nd Amendment Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2000 Location: B.F.E. Posts: 1,720	I have the same opinion regarding the "customizing" of both old cars and old guns. If I drag an old car out of a field and there's not much left then it's fair game to become whatever I want. But when I bought a solid original from the 40's or 50's or 60's that simply needed TLC, no. You don't cut something like that up. Same with guns. I've got a couple old Enfields in the closet that I may do a lot of horrid things to. But the flipside is, if I don't they are basically junk. Well beyond being returned to quality representatives of their breed. So if your custom whatever, car or gun, starts in your hands as a sad old wreck, more power to you. But if you take something nice and do more than screw on some custom wheels or some custom grips I admit I'll be one of those standing there shaking my head. Sorry. __________________ Scott Conklin We now live in a nation that is Post Rule-of-Law. The government makes the rules by decree as needed and if you run afoul of them you'll eventually be run over by them. - Me

August 10, 2007, 10:59 AM	#16
Jart Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 1,592	It's your money, you should do what you want. But if you're really asking why some would get a little wrapped around the axle, I'll offer some conjecture: The automotive analogy fails, due primarily to the different rates of advancement in automobile technology vs. firearms. If you pro-street a '32 Ford it goes faster, handles better, stops shorter, might even be more comfortable and the sound system is likely much improved. Work over a pristine 1911 and you've in all likelihood made it less reliable, and only marginally more accurate. The FLGR gains you less than nothing, you can't buy a sear / hammer that'll work better than matching the Kuhnhausen values on the originals. Grab the sear spring and give it yank and you'll have your light trigger. A 60 year old Ford won’t win any races being simply restored. The 1911 will acquit itself quite nicely. A 1939 vintage 1911 is like a 32 Ford that somehow shipped with a 32 valve Shelby, McLaren suspension, Baer binders, cold air and Blaupunkt. It's a lot harder to make real improvements and a lot easier to make pseudo improvements. What you would do to a 1911 isn't pro-streeting it. It's ricing it. Big exhaust tips, stickers (heavy on the "R"), slammed suspension, spinners, a 99.00 paint job and purple peeling window tint. It will look like a poseur to many. How would your automotive buds react if instead of a decent pro-street you took the 32 Ford and simply stickered, spinnered, canned and slammed it without doing much of anything to improve its transportation value or performance? That said, I can't think of a fate much worse for a firearm than to be slammed into the darkness next the mutual fund certificates. If tarting it up is what it takes for the thing to be shot regularly, then I’m all for it. Even I might cringe at doing so to a 1911 with Union Signal stamped on the slide, Alvin Yorks signature on the grips and a Colt letter rolled up in the barrel, but it’s your money – whatever floats your boat.

August 10, 2007, 11:22 AM	#18
AJD21 Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2007 Posts: 136	Your going to find that most, if not everyone, is going to think what you did or are doing is a very poor idea. If you honestly don't understand why, then no amount of explaining on my part or anyone else's will make a difference. But, I suspect you do, because you've gone to great lengths to justify it to all of us and yourself. But like others have said, if your seeking approval from others what your doing, your not going to find it. It has nothing to do with us thinking we are better than you. Again, if you don't understand why already then no amount of explaining will help.

August 10, 2007, 11:39 AM	#19
Derius_T Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: South West OHIO (boondocks) Posts: 1,262	Alot of you guys don't make sense to me. Are you historians and collectors, or are you shooters? I mean, sure its nice to have a few rare old collector items that have some special value, I can understand that, being a history and gun nut both. But at the same time, I understand the value of taking a 50 year old gun with 50 year old parts, and 50 year old gun manufacturing skill and technology, and giving them an update if you were going to shoot them alot. It would be nice to have a pristine early 60's model mustang, completely original, 1 owner, low, low miles. (and I have) Have you ever tried to DRIVE that pristine machine? If you honestly have, you will see how fast that 40 year old museum quality car will start to fall apart and fail. Was there a design flaw in the vehicle? Hell no. BUT IT IS 40 YEARS OLD! 40 year old parts, no matter how well they were made, FAIL, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination perform as well as a new customized model. Now if you are gonna leave it in the garage and LOOK at it, FINE. But if you ever plan on DRIVING it, it is going to need some work. The same with the pristine 1911. Is anything wrong with the original design? Hell no. Is it beautiful and a peice of history? Hell yes! If you are going to LOOK at it, by all means, leave it alone. But if you want to do with the gun what it was designed and BUILT to do, you are going to have to update those 40 year old parts. Now some will argue that they have this or that old gun that fires fine, and you may. But under heavy use, that old gun will wear out. Metal parts fail with age, wear, and time. And another thing, people accuse the poster of whining, or bitching, or seeking validation ect. He was just asking a question. Maybe YOU are the ones who need validation, in your obsession to take a weapon that was built and designed for SHOOTING, and turning it into a very old, very expensive, paperweight. Do you think thats what Sam Colt built that gun for?

August 10, 2007, 11:46 AM	#20
Fremmer Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,486	Derius, he asked for our opinion and got it. And not everyone has told him not to modify his guns. Ultimately, they are his guns, so he can do what he pleases with them. We're not trying to slam him, we're just responding to his Thread. No offense intended!

August 10, 2007, 11:58 AM	#21
AJD21 Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2007 Posts: 136	But at the same time, I understand the value of taking a 50 year old gun with 50 year old parts, and 50 year old gun manufacturing skill and technology, and giving them an update if you were going to shoot them alot. Well, if we were to be talking about a 50 year old Colt 1911. You would probably find that 50 year old Colt would put most currently produced 1911's to shame in terms of fit and finish. It would be nice to have a pristine early 60's model mustang, completely original, 1 owner, low, low miles. (and I have) Have you ever tried to DRIVE that pristine machine? If you honestly have, you will see how fast that 40 year old museum quality car will start to fall apart and fail. Was there a design flaw in the vehicle? Hell no. BUT IT IS 40 YEARS OLD! 40 year old parts, no matter how well they were made, FAIL, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination perform as well as a new customized model. Now if you are gonna leave it in the garage and LOOK at it, FINE. But if you ever plan on DRIVING it, it is going to need some work. Cars and guns aren't the same. An old Colt 1911 will perform just as well as a new 1911. The same with the pristine 1911. Is anything wrong with the original design? Hell no. Is it beautiful and a peice of history? Hell yes! If you are going to LOOK at it, by all means, leave it alone. But if you want to do with the gun what it was designed and BUILT to do, you are going to have to update those 40 year old parts. Now some will argue that they have this or that old gun that fires fine, and you may. But under heavy use, that old gun will wear out. Metal parts fail with age, wear, and time. A 40 year old 1911 will be made entirely of barstock and forged steel that is in fact superior to casting and MIM parts which current 1911's are mostly composed of. And another thing, people accuse the poster of whining, or bitching, or seeking validation ect. He was just asking a question. Maybe YOU are the ones who need validation, in your obsession to take a weapon that was built and designed for SHOOTING, and turning it into a very old, very expensive, paperweight. Do you think thats what Sam Colt built that gun for? I don't see many people saying he shouldn't shoot it. I think many people wouldn't care if he shot it or not. Then again, their are alot cheaper option out there for shooting. But if you want to shoot a valuable collectable just because you feel the need to then go ahead. But shooting it and making alot of permant modifications to it are different, at least to me they are.

August 10, 2007, 12:02 PM	#22
FS2K Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 1,853	Validate? My post has nothing to do with a desire to validate what I or anyone else does, it was made to ask as to why you "collectors" can't except the fact that gun enthusiasts aren't all cut from the same cookie cutter. And oddly enough I got my answer. I made my post in a non-confrontational manner, yet, some of you chime in acting exactly as I predicted! I find that amusing. I'm not looking to start an argument here, and I don't think my request was too much to ask. But apparently, some people really do feel as though what they have to say to matters to the individuals who are content doing their own thing. Not everyone see's "Value" in the same way as you do. There are some of us who don't care what re-sale cost they could get if they sold a particular piece. For some, the value of any said item be it an old Handgun or pickup truck lays in it's ability to perform, not just sit there looking pretty, or in most "Antique" items cases : pretty darn well for being 80 years old and not that tattered or rusted up. Production guns, machinery in general are just that: run of the mill examples of a mass produced item. While there may be artistic aspects apparent in the machines design, there is nothing artistic about an antique production line product in itself. Yes, I understand that some examples have weathered the test of time very well, and for that they can be considered rare, but a work of art? No more so than a new production model of the same design. There is a difference between "well preserved" and what might be considered artistic or unique. In any case, if it no longer exists to be used as it was intended to by design, (due to worn or fragile parts) then that item ceases to be, and it becomes just something else to look at. My opinion of course. Again, I can appreciate what others find interesting or valuable when it comes to antiques, and if it's your thing then fine. So why is it that what I choose to do with some of the Antiques I (or other frabricators/reconstructors) come across seem to bother so many other people? In the Automotive recon trade fabricators take pride in starting a project from something most people wouldn't give a second glance and transforming it into a better than new condition totally customized to fit unique piece of Art. That's art: something you create from a single thought into reality, not just wrapping some gun up in a greasy rag and busting it out 50 years later. Automotive Fabricators get thier fair share of critiscism from the resotration crowd too, so it isn't a surprize that there would be members here who didn't like the idea of hotrodding old guns too. But that doesn't make cutting down their beliefs and projects right. Maybe it would be a good idea for those who found themselves emotionally effected by what I had to say here to ask yourselves the questions I've asked? Why does what other people do to thier own guns bother you so much? What difference does the "re-sale" value of a gun make to an owner who doesn't care about such things? And why is it so hard for you to except the fact that some owners have no problem with the idea of modifying their guns for a more personalized fit? I think there's a big misconception that many of you collectors have about us fabricators; and that's that we don't have any respect for the guns we modify. There are people like that sure, but they don't respresent all of us. Some older gun designs like the 1911 or M1 Garand do have a certain mystique about them, one that a fabricator appreciates just as much as a 'purist' does with the exception that the fabricators intend on using thier guns as they were meant to be; out on a field, in the woods, or at the range on a regular basis. Wood furinature may have once served it's purpose, but old wood doesn't tend to fair too well in rain & mud. Iron peep sights that were perfect for battle may not be the optimal choice for a gun being used for something else today. When an individual takes his Dad's old M1A and cut's it's barrel down, puts on a sythetic stock and optics on it, he's called a "Bubba". When Springfield does it, the call it a SOCOM 16 and are praised for the innovations they have incooperated into the M14's old design. I like the lines of some older guns. I like the way they look, and I like to read about the histories some of them have behind them. But that won't stop me from modifying ANY gun that I intend on keeping for myself that doesn't fit me quite right. It isn't a Black and White deal here. I don't actively pursue old guns to modify on every chance I get. Not all of the older guns appeal to me, therefore they are in no risk of being customized by me. I simply won't buy it. **Oh, and as for my 1911 becoming an expensive paperweight? I seriously doubt it. The Frame & Slide (the only things I kept from the original) were in pristine condition; never refinished (until now, just touched up) and as clean as any frame I could have started with today. All the pin holes were tight and the gun showed very little wear. I built this gun to shoot, and she shoots very well. Just because she's a little on the mature side doesn't mean she can't handle some action. __________________ Just a big fan of guns.

August 10, 2007, 12:34 PM	#24
2nd Amendment Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2000 Location: B.F.E. Posts: 1,720	Sorry Derius but I have my grandfathers 1964 Cadillac DeVille. I drive it. Not a lot because I want to keep the miles down but still, I drive it. Know what breaks? Nothing. I haven't pulled any maintenance on it beyond fluids, filters alignment in 6 years or more. That's more than I can say about my big diesel 'burb or the Fleetwood. The fact is, there WAS a build quality in the past that was lost(ignored) for a very long time. Also, how you treat something determines breakage every bit as much as age. Considering it came factory with AM/FM, Climate Control, leather and power everything plus a balsy 429 I don't feel I am sacrificing anything to anyone driving something newer, either. Anyway, just a counterpoint, not really an argument. __________________ Scott Conklin We now live in a nation that is Post Rule-of-Law. The government makes the rules by decree as needed and if you run afoul of them you'll eventually be run over by them. - Me

August 10, 2007, 12:39 PM	#25
Manedwolf Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	To those who, indeed, seem to want everyone else to preserve all guns in the dark, untouched and uncustomized, I'd ask if this picture offends you, too? This is a working DC-3, still employed in carrying goods every day, a workhorse. It was likely built in the 1930's or 1940's, could have been an airliner or C-47. As you can see there, it's been converted to turboprops, because while the airframe is one of the sturdiest ever designed, radial engines cost too much to operate in the modern world. The cockpit probably also has a new instrument panel with GPS and color LCDs for greater pilot efficiency and safety. Now, this DC-3 could be silent and still in a museum, a dead husk never to fly again. Or it could be in the air where it belongs, among the clouds, because someone updated it to new turboprop engines. Which would you rather see?