Making Paper Cartridges work with wads

hunter64 · August 13, 2007, 09:43 PM

I am a newbie to the fine art of the Holy Black and revolvers so please excuse the ignorance. I have been making paper cartridges out of cigarette paper with good results. When I get to the range I break the cartridge off in the cylinder just below the ball and insert a lubed wad and then ram the ball. At first I was putting the whole cartridge into the cylinder and then topping it off with Crisco and it gets messy quickly, hence the use of felt wad. The problem with the wad is the lube on it, it bleeds thru the cigarette paper and in short order it makes the cartridge fall apart. Has anyone tried something to keep the lubed wad from doing this? I was thinking about a small strip of wax paper around the wad to keep the lube away from the roll paper but I am unsure if the wax paper would gum up the cylinder when fired. Any thoughts?

w_houle · August 13, 2007, 10:37 PM

I think you should look at reformulating your wads, either that or just buy some commercially available ones so it doesn't keep you up at night.
If you must make your own try using beeswax in with your crisco, at least 70% beeswax

okiefarmer · August 14, 2007, 09:22 AM

Hope I'm not reading this wrong, but you have the entire contents in the cig paper and the lubed wad is bleeding through. Is it absolutely neccessary to have the lubed wad included in this "cartiridge"? Can you not carry it in a separate little bag, close at hand? You have solved the field measuring part with the "cartridges" you have made, but surely it wouldn't be too inconvenient to keep the wads in the "other" pouch. Just a suggestion.

Raider2000 · August 14, 2007, 10:38 AM

My paper cartridges are just the powder, being that the Colt's are a little bulkier than the Remington's making the whole contained powder & ball load insert into the chamber all at once, I just insert a powder load "my cartridge" then wad "if I use it" then Ball.

to me it's just as easy.

hunter64 · August 14, 2007, 07:55 PM

okiefarmer: That is exactly what I am doing, just wondering if there was a way that the wad wouldn't bleed thru the paper, it is not a big deal to carry the wads in a small can. I think I will make a bunch of just black powder cartridges and then just add the felt on top and then a ball. As Raider2000 said, most of the work is done and I don't have to measure out the powder and that is what takes most of the time. I am still going to experiment with wax paper for the fun of it, heck it is all fun anyway.

Fred_Fred · August 14, 2007, 08:08 PM

Just wondering... if the wad bleeds lube into the paper, wouldn't it also bleed into the powder itself?

Jim Keenan · August 14, 2007, 09:05 PM

The old time cartridges did not contain a wad. Some had lubricated bullets.

I suggest just waxing the bullet or the outside of the cartridge at the bullet and loading the whole cartridge. I assume you are nitrating the paper as well, so that it all burns up.

(The above applies to revolvers; cartridges for the rifle musket were not loaded as a whole; the cartridge was broken, the powder poured down the barrel, followed by the bullet. The cartridge paper was discarded.)

Jim

hunter64 · August 14, 2007, 11:19 PM

Jim: What does nitrating the paper mean? I am just putting the whole cigarette cartridge into the chamber with the RB and ramming it home. I was worried about not igniting from the cap encase some of the paper was covering the flash hole so I used a bent pick to push thru the nipple hole before capping it just to make sure. I then covered the ball with Crisco but that becomes very messy in a hurry so I started to play with the wads and hence the discussion.

What about just using a Lee conical bullet like http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/cata.../blackpow.html near the bottom of the page. It has two lube grooves and that way I could still use the cigarette paper cartridges without the lubed felt and I am sure that the lube would still bleed thru on some of the cartridges but it would still hold together because of the length of it. Has anyone tried the Lee conical bullets before?

okiefarmer · August 15, 2007, 01:08 AM

Hunter64,

I use the LEE conicals in Ruger OA, a Remi 44 and 36 for the very reason you indicate. I can avoid the CRISCO thing. I made up some duck butter of my own using beeswax, LEE Alox, and a little CRISCO. Works for me, but I have yet to do the little cartridge thing. I did read that pasty here on the forum somewhere and thought that would be a handy thing to do, just haven't done it yet. Also concerned with what the wife might think I'm doing with rolling papers. I never inhaled in college ya know.

hunter64 · August 15, 2007, 07:17 AM

okiefarmer: That is funny, my daughter thought the same thing. I was setting up to start the production line and had to use the bathroom so I left all the stuff on the table including the rolling papers. When I came back she was looking at the papers and was very concerned as to what I was doing. Once I convinced her that I wasn't taking up smoking as a hobby she actually sat down and helped me make some up.

9mmHP · August 15, 2007, 07:59 AM

It is best to use nitrated paper (aka "flash paper"), but where the heck would you get it? Nitration is also not a simple process requiring a two-step procedure using sulfuric and then nitric acid, rinsing, and then buffering the paper so it doesn't spontaneously combust. Not easy.

Raider2000 · August 15, 2007, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mmHP

It is best to use nitrated paper (aka "flash paper"), but where the heck would you get it? Nitration is also not a simple process requiring a two-step procedure using sulfuric and then nitric acid, rinsing, and then buffering the paper so it doesn't spontaneously combust. Not easy.

Ummm you are talking about the basis of dynaimite right?

My grand dad would just get potasium nitrate & make a very wet paste with it & run the thin paper through it & hang it out to dry, "similar process as to making the wick for a match lock weapons" but after it was dried he would then use elmers glue to glue the side & ends making the CATRIDGE."

it would burn pretty much clean too...

K.A.T. · August 15, 2007, 08:03 PM

I have been thinking about pre-measuring powder and putting it in 30-30 cases.You can buy a plastic shell box that seperates them standing on end,and it will hold about 50of them,and has a lid that closes.But what to use to seal the open end of each case,maybe a piece of plastic stretch wrap over the top of the whole box then close the lid.Do you guys have any ideas?

okiefarmer · August 15, 2007, 10:12 PM

Let's see, a condom for a 30-30 case. My mind was in the gutter for a second there, but the do make those little finger condoms(finger protectors) that might fit. Have no idea if they make them in smaller sizes, but I think it might fit a little loose.

Shotgun Willy · August 15, 2007, 10:38 PM

Is there any chance there's a pistol shell sized right to use as a cap? If not you might see how well the inside of a cigarette butt fits the hole.
Bill

9mmHP · August 15, 2007, 10:39 PM

Dynamite? The nitration process is similiar as that for producing nitroglycerine, but they are not chemically the same. The reaction makes nitrocelluose, which was an early smokeless powder. There is actually flash powder available for sale from magic shops on the web, I found after my initial reply, but it's very pricey.

Steve499 · August 16, 2007, 06:58 AM

I use quick load tubes, which hold a pre-measured powder charge with the open end sealed by the ball.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=7713

There's a good thread on THR about making paper cartridges. Post # 109 tells how to nitrate your paper for better ignition.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144094

hunter64 · August 16, 2007, 07:31 AM

I don't know about nitrate paper but I use just regular Zig Zag cheap rolling papers. After I fired my first cylinder full of paper cartridges I took out the cylinder and there was no paper residue in there or the barrel. I use a .45acp cartridge holder and they hold them perfectly.

Here is my method for loading a cartridge with powder and ball (I am next going to get a conical and avoid the grease on the end).

1. Get a piece of wooden dowel smaller than the RB that you are using, for my .44 cal I am using a 3/8" dowel and about 5 or 6" long is fine.

2. Place an open dish towel on the table to work on.

3. Put the roll paper on the towel and place the dowel about 1/2 down the paper and put the RB on the end of the dowel. Now with a moist q-tip lightly moisten the gum on the paper and bring the two ends of the paper together to make the cartridge. Takes about 5 seconds for the gum to dry and you remove the dowel out of the cone shaped cartridge.

4. On the ball end of the cartridge just simply twist the paper and leave about 1/2" left over and fold it over and put a dab of white glue on the end to hold it there. Put it aside and work on your next one.

5. Now you have a hollow tube with a RB in the end of it. Dump in the measured charge of the Holy Black and twist the other end, cut off the access and glue the end to the cartridge so it won't come apart.

I carry these in my .45acp cartridge holder that you can get from Dillon for about 5 bucks. You will have a cone shaped cartridge hence the use of the smaller than RB dowel. It fits into the empty cylinder easily and at the range I just put the cartridge into the cylinder and ram it home. The end going into the cylinder is tapered the force of the ramming will break the paper and everyone is happy. You can also just carry a paper clip and push it thru the nipple to make sure that the paper is broken and that there is powder exposed inside. Put grease on the balls, cap it and away you go.

So to make a long story short, while I am watching TV I make up 50 cartridges and it usually takes me about 1 hour for this. At the range I can have the revolver reloaded in under 90 seconds ( I timed myself).

So why I started this thread is to try and figure out a way to avoid the grease over the balls and somehow get it into the cartridge to save a step and the mess. I am going to give the conical bullets a try next.

Steve499: Thanks for the bottom tutorial with pictures reference, I never knew it was out there. Same thing that I am doing only I am using a dowel to aid in the step to making a cone shaped cartridge. The part about nitrating with acetone and smokeless powder is interesting and I will try that for the heck of it, mind you just regular is fine because I have yet to find any paper left after it has been fired.

August 13, 2007, 09:43 PM	#1
hunter64 Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Posts: 53	Making Paper Cartridges work with wads I am a newbie to the fine art of the Holy Black and revolvers so please excuse the ignorance. I have been making paper cartridges out of cigarette paper with good results. When I get to the range I break the cartridge off in the cylinder just below the ball and insert a lubed wad and then ram the ball. At first I was putting the whole cartridge into the cylinder and then topping it off with Crisco and it gets messy quickly, hence the use of felt wad. The problem with the wad is the lube on it, it bleeds thru the cigarette paper and in short order it makes the cartridge fall apart. Has anyone tried something to keep the lubed wad from doing this? I was thinking about a small strip of wax paper around the wad to keep the lube away from the roll paper but I am unsure if the wax paper would gum up the cylinder when fired. Any thoughts?

August 14, 2007, 09:22 AM	#3
okiefarmer Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 231	okiefarmer Hope I'm not reading this wrong, but you have the entire contents in the cig paper and the lubed wad is bleeding through. Is it absolutely neccessary to have the lubed wad included in this "cartiridge"? Can you not carry it in a separate little bag, close at hand? You have solved the field measuring part with the "cartridges" you have made, but surely it wouldn't be too inconvenient to keep the wads in the "other" pouch. Just a suggestion.

August 14, 2007, 09:05 PM	#7
Jim Keenan Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 10,956	The old time cartridges did not contain a wad. Some had lubricated bullets. I suggest just waxing the bullet or the outside of the cartridge at the bullet and loading the whole cartridge. I assume you are nitrating the paper as well, so that it all burns up. (The above applies to revolvers; cartridges for the rifle musket were not loaded as a whole; the cartridge was broken, the powder poured down the barrel, followed by the bullet. The cartridge paper was discarded.) Jim __________________ Jim Keenan

August 15, 2007, 08:03 PM	#13
K.A.T. Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: Gainesville,Ga. Posts: 80	I have been thinking about pre-measuring powder and putting it in 30-30 cases.You can buy a plastic shell box that seperates them standing on end,and it will hold about 50of them,and has a lid that closes.But what to use to seal the open end of each case,maybe a piece of plastic stretch wrap over the top of the whole box then close the lid.Do you guys have any ideas? __________________ Never mind the dog, beware of the Colt!

August 15, 2007, 10:38 PM	#15
Shotgun Willy Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Oklahoma Territory Posts: 73	Plugs Is there any chance there's a pistol shell sized right to use as a cap? If not you might see how well the inside of a cigarette butt fits the hole. Bill

August 13, 2007, 10:37 PM	#2
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Lincolnville, KS Posts: 1,088	I think you should look at reformulating your wads, either that or just buy some commercially available ones so it doesn't keep you up at night. If you must make your own try using beeswax in with your crisco, at least 70% beeswax

August 14, 2007, 10:38 AM	#4
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 706	My paper cartridges are just the powder, being that the Colt's are a little bulkier than the Remington's making the whole contained powder & ball load insert into the chamber all at once, I just insert a powder load "my cartridge" then wad "if I use it" then Ball. to me it's just as easy.

August 14, 2007, 07:55 PM	#5
hunter64 Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Posts: 53	okiefarmer: That is exactly what I am doing, just wondering if there was a way that the wad wouldn't bleed thru the paper, it is not a big deal to carry the wads in a small can. I think I will make a bunch of just black powder cartridges and then just add the felt on top and then a ball. As Raider2000 said, most of the work is done and I don't have to measure out the powder and that is what takes most of the time. I am still going to experiment with wax paper for the fun of it, heck it is all fun anyway.

August 14, 2007, 08:08 PM	#6
Fred_Fred Member Join Date: March 26, 2007 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 35	Just wondering... if the wad bleeds lube into the paper, wouldn't it also bleed into the powder itself?

August 14, 2007, 11:19 PM	#8
hunter64 Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Posts: 53	Jim: What does nitrating the paper mean? I am just putting the whole cigarette cartridge into the chamber with the RB and ramming it home. I was worried about not igniting from the cap encase some of the paper was covering the flash hole so I used a bent pick to push thru the nipple hole before capping it just to make sure. I then covered the ball with Crisco but that becomes very messy in a hurry so I started to play with the wads and hence the discussion. What about just using a Lee conical bullet like http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/cata.../blackpow.html near the bottom of the page. It has two lube grooves and that way I could still use the cigarette paper cartridges without the lubed felt and I am sure that the lube would still bleed thru on some of the cartridges but it would still hold together because of the length of it. Has anyone tried the Lee conical bullets before?

August 15, 2007, 01:08 AM	#9
okiefarmer Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 231	Hunter64, I use the LEE conicals in Ruger OA, a Remi 44 and 36 for the very reason you indicate. I can avoid the CRISCO thing. I made up some duck butter of my own using beeswax, LEE Alox, and a little CRISCO. Works for me, but I have yet to do the little cartridge thing. I did read that pasty here on the forum somewhere and thought that would be a handy thing to do, just haven't done it yet. Also concerned with what the wife might think I'm doing with rolling papers. I never inhaled in college ya know.

August 15, 2007, 07:17 AM	#10
hunter64 Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Posts: 53	okiefarmer: That is funny, my daughter thought the same thing. I was setting up to start the production line and had to use the bathroom so I left all the stuff on the table including the rolling papers. When I came back she was looking at the papers and was very concerned as to what I was doing. Once I convinced her that I wasn't taking up smoking as a hobby she actually sat down and helped me make some up.

August 15, 2007, 07:59 AM	#11
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 313	It is best to use nitrated paper (aka "flash paper"), but where the heck would you get it? Nitration is also not a simple process requiring a two-step procedure using sulfuric and then nitric acid, rinsing, and then buffering the paper so it doesn't spontaneously combust. Not easy.

August 15, 2007, 10:12 PM	#14
okiefarmer Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 231	Let's see, a condom for a 30-30 case. My mind was in the gutter for a second there, but the do make those little finger condoms(finger protectors) that might fit. Have no idea if they make them in smaller sizes, but I think it might fit a little loose.

August 15, 2007, 10:39 PM	#16
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 313	Re: flash paper Dynamite? The nitration process is similiar as that for producing nitroglycerine, but they are not chemically the same. The reaction makes nitrocelluose, which was an early smokeless powder. There is actually flash powder available for sale from magic shops on the web, I found after my initial reply, but it's very pricey.

August 16, 2007, 06:58 AM	#17
Steve499 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Central Missouri Posts: 530	I use quick load tubes, which hold a pre-measured powder charge with the open end sealed by the ball. http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=7713 There's a good thread on THR about making paper cartridges. Post # 109 tells how to nitrate your paper for better ignition. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144094

August 16, 2007, 07:31 AM	#18
hunter64 Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Posts: 53	I don't know about nitrate paper but I use just regular Zig Zag cheap rolling papers. After I fired my first cylinder full of paper cartridges I took out the cylinder and there was no paper residue in there or the barrel. I use a .45acp cartridge holder and they hold them perfectly. Here is my method for loading a cartridge with powder and ball (I am next going to get a conical and avoid the grease on the end). 1. Get a piece of wooden dowel smaller than the RB that you are using, for my .44 cal I am using a 3/8" dowel and about 5 or 6" long is fine. 2. Place an open dish towel on the table to work on. 3. Put the roll paper on the towel and place the dowel about 1/2 down the paper and put the RB on the end of the dowel. Now with a moist q-tip lightly moisten the gum on the paper and bring the two ends of the paper together to make the cartridge. Takes about 5 seconds for the gum to dry and you remove the dowel out of the cone shaped cartridge. 4. On the ball end of the cartridge just simply twist the paper and leave about 1/2" left over and fold it over and put a dab of white glue on the end to hold it there. Put it aside and work on your next one. 5. Now you have a hollow tube with a RB in the end of it. Dump in the measured charge of the Holy Black and twist the other end, cut off the access and glue the end to the cartridge so it won't come apart. I carry these in my .45acp cartridge holder that you can get from Dillon for about 5 bucks. You will have a cone shaped cartridge hence the use of the smaller than RB dowel. It fits into the empty cylinder easily and at the range I just put the cartridge into the cylinder and ram it home. The end going into the cylinder is tapered the force of the ramming will break the paper and everyone is happy. You can also just carry a paper clip and push it thru the nipple to make sure that the paper is broken and that there is powder exposed inside. Put grease on the balls, cap it and away you go. So to make a long story short, while I am watching TV I make up 50 cartridges and it usually takes me about 1 hour for this. At the range I can have the revolver reloaded in under 90 seconds ( I timed myself). So why I started this thread is to try and figure out a way to avoid the grease over the balls and somehow get it into the cartridge to save a step and the mess. I am going to give the conical bullets a try next. Steve499: Thanks for the bottom tutorial with pictures reference, I never knew it was out there. Same thing that I am doing only I am using a dowel to aid in the step to making a cone shaped cartridge. The part about nitrating with acetone and smokeless powder is interesting and I will try that for the heck of it, mind you just regular is fine because I have yet to find any paper left after it has been fired.