"obsolete" for real?

[Bezoar]

The general rule is at least a 25 auto in a pocket gun to keep you alive in a bad mugging. And that anything using black powder is BAD and going to get you killed.

But yet if you look at the ballistics, the old percussion revolvers and the cartridge conversions, smokeless loads and bp laods, have the same or better ballistics then the mousegun loads do.
SO why is everyone against the percussion revolvers as true weapons of self defense in the modern world?

[JohnKSa]

Reliability is better with modern ammunition. And ease of loading/unloading is hugely improved. Not having to shoot through a mass of smoke is another.

As far as lethality/effectiveness goes, the old cap & ball revolvers in the more substantial calibers give up very little to modern firearms.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

trouble is... those black powder revolvers aren't ( for the most part ) the same size as those 25 autos... IMO, a 44 cal black powder revolver would work fine for self defence, but you will give up...

good bullet design ( round ball vrs modern hollow point ) ( I suppose you could possibly load some type of bullet over a back powder charge, but a hollow point would likely deform when being pressed in causing poor groupings... )

quick reloads... even a single action probably reloads faster than loading a cap & ball revolver ( again, I suppose you could build "race gun" of sorts that allows quickchange of a full cylinder ) that would load faster than a single action...

safety & mess... a cap & ball revolver is much likely to chain fire a whole or partial cylinder unless its well "greased"... a "greased" cylinder is prone to messing up your pocket, collecting enough pocket lint or holster debrise that it impeads the cylinder rotation, wearing off over the course of weekly carry, resulting in cylinder multi fire if needed to be brought into battery after weeks / months of carry

normal size... of most black powder cap & ball revolvers of sufficient bore, is much larger than a modern pocket revolver...

[Double Naught Spy]

The general rule is at least a 25 auto in a pocket gun to keep you alive in a bad mugging.

You have been misinformed.

And that anything using black powder is BAD and going to get you killed.

You have been misinformed again, in part by a logic flaw. Using BP won't get you killed per se. The comment indicates that somehow BP will make the situation more dangerous for you than it already is and that is not really the case. BP may not work as well a centerfire or semi autos, but that does not mean it will get you killed. I would rather have BP over just my fists.

But yet if you look at the ballistics, the old percussion revolvers and the cartridge conversions, smokeless loads and bp laods, have the same or better ballistics then the mousegun loads do.

So you are comparing a large and clunky cap and ball revolver against a much smaller centerfire semiauto? That seems rather silly. How about comparing a comparable sized semi-auto to a BP gun and see what you get in terms of reliability, reloading, rate of fire, etc.

[TNBulldog]

What possible reason could you have for wanting to use a black powder gun for self defense over a modern gun? The very idea is almost just contrary for the sake of being contrary.

[deadin]

What possible reason could you have for wanting to use a black powder gun for self defense over a modern gun?

Maybe because one can mail order a BP gun without going through an FFL and passing NICS?

(Well, it is a reason.)

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by deadin

Maybe because one can mail order a BP gun

That is true, but not to the extent you might believe.

For example, it is possible to buy a modern, single shot Encore, which shoots BP, from your local sporting goods store.

However, you still have to fill out the usual 4473 mish-mash.

Why? Because the firearm can exchange barrels to modern catridges.

By BP, they don't mean a modern weapon that is capable of firing BP, they mean a firearm that only fires BP. Like a front loader, or a cap-and-ball.

When you buy a SAA, a firearm from 1873, you fill out the forms.

[gb_in_ga]

Maybe because one can mail order a BP gun without going through an FFL and passing NICS?

That's one reason I can think of, right off hand. There are some people who, for whatever reason, are barred from owning more modern weapons and are NOT barred from owning BP.

Another reason I heard of is that some long haul truckers have taken to carrying them in their rigs due to the patchwork nature of the various States' handgun laws. One thing that seems to be in common is that BP cap & ball revolvers are allowed pretty much across the board. After all -- a cap & ball revolver is better than nothing at all if you are being hijacked.

[Rimrod]

Anyone who feels the cap and ball revolvers are a joke needs to read "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith.

Reliability is better with modern ammunition.

The cap and ball era only lasted 30 years before it was improved upon and for good reason. They are deadly but as John said reliability is a problem that can't be overlooked.

I love to shoot black powder replicas but wouldn't carry one to save my life. I would take one over a .25 as far as power goes, but most of them are too big to try and carry concealed.

[KDM]

I dunno...there is a back door there with BP guns. There are a couple well-known distributors that sell cap 'n ball pistols...then the next couple pages over are replacement cylinders that convert to BP cartridges. Both can be bought thru the mail in most locales...pistol 'cause it's black powder, cylinder 'cause it's not a firearm. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut. Don't want ideas floating around. Mods, feel free to delete if deemed necessary.

[BillCA]

Considering the percussion guns were used to good effect up through the civil war and a beyond that, I'd say they're effective.

As other have pointed out, ignition reliability is one of the major pitfalls with percussion and even older flintlock guns.

Cartridge guns vastly improved reloading speed and ignition reliability. I've seen where some folks created their own paper cartridges for reloading percussion guns faster. But the fact is, it's hard to put those caps on when you're in a hurry or some brave is charging you with a lance.

Are there better choices? You betcha! Will that .44 cap & ball revolver stop an attacker? Just as well as a .44 Special - if the charge ignites.

[Bezoar]

I am not trying to be contrary for the sake of being contrary.

The "experts" will grudingly admit a single action revolver in 45 colt is fine for house defense. But yet the poor old cap and ball revolver is "totally worthless" for the same purpose or for defense on the street.

Loose powder and ball would be suicide if you have to reload during a meth addict attack. But if you have a cartridge conversion, you load just as fast as a SAA or a ruger blackhawk does.

But with the cartridge conversions you have far more powerful primers acting upon black powder or upon the more normal smokeless powder under the bullet. And as far as bullets go, the lrn in a 38 spcl is considered an "adequate" self defense round, so why would it be any worse if put into a bp revolver?

[Hafoc]

If you're talking a black powder revolver with a conversion cylinder, then you're talking a centerfire handgun. Not in the eyes of the law in all jurisdictions, perhaps, but that's what it is.

Your LRN .38 Special out of a conversion revolver is going to be the same as out of a purpose-built .38 Special- except that some of the conversions I've seen say to use "cowboy load" hollow-base wadcutters only, so presumably using a standard load lead round nose would overstress the wretched thing. Could come apart on you, I guess.

Unless you cut your BP revolver for a loading gate, you are going to have to reload by taking the conversion cylinder out, emptying it, reloading it, and replacing it. If you've got a gated conversion, it should unload and reload about as fast as an SAA, which is just about the slowest-loading cartridge handgun in standard production today.

But yeah, ignoring all the operational drawbacks, if you hit something with a 250 grain slug going 700 fps, it's going to do exactly the same damage regardless of what sort of device launched it.

[JohnKSa]

But yet the poor old cap and ball revolver is "totally worthless" for the same purpose or for defense on the street.

I've never seen anyone I'd call an expert say that. Are there better choices? No question. But worthless? HARDLY!

But if you have a cartridge conversion, you load just as fast as a SAA or a ruger blackhawk does.

You don't have a cap & ball pistol anymore. You have a gun shooting self-contained metallic cartridge ammunition. Also, I'm not sure that a cartridge conversion cylinder revolver could be characterized as being as fast to load as a typical SAA revolver. Maybe I don't understand the process, but doesn't the cylinder & firing pin plate have to be removed from the gun to reload?

[Double Naught Spy]

So Bezoar, is there some sort of point you are trying to make? Are you trying to justify to yourself that carrying a converted revolver is good enough for your own self defense? If so, then bear in mind that it does not matter what the rest of us think. All that matters is what you think. If you choose to make that choice, it is yours to make. Most here won't think it is the most prudent choice to make, but that is because we feel there are much better options available for that purpose.

If you think about it, rocks are pretty obsolete as well, but still can be used effectively. Would I want to use a rock to defend myself? Not if I had better opions available.

[Steve499]

The recommendation to use hollow based wadcutters in the .38 conversion cylinders stems from the bore of the .36 replica revolvers being larger than the .357 or so of modern .38 specials. The hollow based rounds are supposed to expand enough to take up the slack and engage the rifling.

There is no reason for a percussion revolver to be less reliable than a cartridge revolver IF the same conditions can be maintained within the chambers of its cylinder as exist within a cartridge case. That means it must be absolutely dry and free of any contaminant prior to loading and must be sealed from having moisture/humidity enter after being loaded.

I loaded an old Italian replica I had in 1992 or so, Sealed the nipples and chamber mouths with beeswax and put it away. The thing shot terribly anyway and I just never got around to shooting it. A couple of years ago I gave it to one of my daughters when she became interested in shooting. I figured I'd have to pull the bullets, etc., and reload the thing before she could shoot it. Not so! The first two shots went off without any hanging fire, or any noticeable reduction in power. I only then realized I had an experiment going. We left the other 4 chambers alone. She's going to try to shoot them at some point in the future, how far ahead is just up to her.

Like others, I wouldn't choose to carry one of the old percussion revolvers for anything other than fun, but if that was all I had, if I could figure out how to conceal the darn thing, I wouldn't feel I was handicapped too much.

[KDM]

JohnKSa, hafoc, others...yep, you're right. Cylinder and rear plate (which hold individual firing pins) need to be removed for unloading/loading. Not a speedy reload process, is it?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I had a similar occurance...

when my father in law died, we were going through his stuff & found an Itialian brass framed cap & ball revolver loaded... it was presumed that this had been loaded since his last ( informal ) black powder shoot he had attended 4-5 years before his death...

I was advised not to shoot it ( it didn't have caps on the nipples ), but decided to unload it & clean it up several years later ( now it had been sitting in a normal climate controlled house environment for 7-8 years loaded, but with no caps on the nipples... )... I thought awe what the heck, it was just a cheap itialian copy, so I threw a leather jacket & gloves on, capped the pistol ( I didn't think it would fire anyway )... but all six shots fired at what seemed to be "normal"... I checked for a hit each time by firing it to a 55 gallon drum...
I did make sure that the front of the cylinder was still well greased, & recommend that your daughter do the same, when / if she shoots the remaining 4 rounds, as well as make sure the balls exit the barrel with each shot...

[Rimrod]

I've had problems several times with the spent percussion caps falling into the action and seizing the gun up. I had to dig them out with a knife or screwdriver which would prove fatal in the middle of a gunfight.

[RsqVet]

Honestly I don't know how many experts will admit (willingly or with a beathing or whatever) that a Single Action 45 is adequate for self or home defense unless you have no other choice.

The caliber is no question an accepted choice among many in regard to modern loads and bulletts.

The sinlge action platform leaves a ton to be desired.... it is slow to re-load, it is slow to get a follow up shot, the very act of makng it ready to the next shot causes much manipulation of the gun and makes good, accurate follow ups hard esp under stress and to me teh SA trigger is not what I want to train with in a revolver.

No I'm not a tactical turtle that thinks we all need a ar15 with every thign on it for home defense, but the SA is not what I would consider a reasonable choice, any 38 DA Smith, sure no problem....

As to the effectiveness of a single cap and ball round... yeah as others have said it is not bad at all in coparison to modern rounds, as to teh whole platfomr well that is another story.

[Joe the Redneck]

Bezoar, first I love that name. I wonder if the others know what it means, unless I am thinking of something else.

Second, if you want to carry a bp, go for it. I fail to see what advantage it would have, even with the conversion, over a 38 snubbie. Well, no, a 38 snubbie would be double action. Can a single action do the job, sure, so can an ax handle. When the single action ruled, everybody had one. But again, it's your choice.

[BillCA]

Honestly I don't know how many experts will admit (willingly or with a beathing or whatever) that a Single Action 45 is adequate for self or home defense unless you have no other choice.

While the SA revolver isn't the best choice it is far from inadequate. There are certainly much better choices for the job, but a SA revolver in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot one can be quite "adequate".

I'd certainly prefer one of my DA revolvers or a semiauto, but if the only loaded gun I had handy was a SA .45 Colt, I wouldn't feel undergunned.

I recall reading about a sort of pudgy little man wearing a 10-gallon cowboy hat & western cut suit walking in Chicago with a reporter during the 1930's one night after dinner. A thug stepped into their path with a revolver in his hand, demanding money. This pudgy guy, pulled his coat back to reveal a Colt SAA .45. He looked right at the thug and said something to the effect, "I can draw and shoot you twice before you can pull your trigger. Is today the day you want to die?" A long pregnant pause ensued and the thug backed off, lowering his gun, then ran off. The pudgy fellow was Ed McGivern one of the fastest shots in the world and earlier that week the reporter had witnessed McGivern draw and fire his SA twice in something under .80 seconds. McGivern could also hit a dime tossed into the air and fire five shots into a half-dollar sized hole at 15 feet...in 9/20ths of a second with a DA revolver.

Such talent is exceptional, however the SA is hardly an "inadequate" defensive gun if one has practiced with it.

[Sgt127]

I would feel OK loading a BP revovler, capping it and laying it down in my nightstand drawer to keep for self defense. (I wouldn't want to, but, I would feel OK with it)

Carrying it? Sweating on it? Knocking the caps loose bouncing around in the glovebox of my car, no way. If I carried it for a week, I would be suprprised if it actually fired all 5 times if I suddenly had to pull it out and shoot it.

Any doubt that .45 call ball would knock the dookie out of somebody, no. Do I think my odds are better with a modern airwieght S&W .38 Chiefs Special? yes.

[RsqVet]

Just to clarify, when I talk about adequate I am refering to what most reasonable and prudent firearms trainers would select / reccomend for carry or defense if given nearly any choice.

The reccomendation of any of these men would be based on a balance of shoot / carryability, "stopping power", ergonomics, and so forth.

For better or worse the SAA falls of this list for a number of reasons.

At the end of the day if it's all that you have then fine, go for it, by that logic a tire iron might be usefull as well; at the same time a tire iron is not what one reccoemnds keepign by the bed or carrying.

[samsmix]

I think I can nail a lid on this one.

If it can be done with 5 or 6 shots, a cap-n-ball gun will still get it done, but there are far, FAR, better choices.


I know the 1851 points like a dream, but there are PLENTY of other guns out there that do it better.

I mean, really, who says "My life/Family is worth protecting", and then says "Now what kind of crappy weapon could I get away with if I'm lucky?".