9mm FMG solids field tested on criminal

[surg_res]

This guy came in today shot at least 5 or 6 times (9 holes?). The bullets measure at 9mm and none of them, as you can see in this CT scout film, fragmented. This guy is somewhat fat and the expansion was horrible. Only 2 bullets remain visible, the others passed through.

He was shot at close range as he tried to rob another man's home. The homeowner is dead--after going for the pistol he had in his safe, a firefight ensued. This man will be charged with murder, he will probably survive thanks to our help.

Tissue damage was minimal secondary to the poor expansion and transfer of energy. Penetration did create resectible viscous injuries. 2 shots to the chest are not easily seen here but you might pick up on the left shattered clavicle.

[nate45]

I went to the range today and practiced mozambique drills with my PM9 and 124 grain +p Gold Dots.

I doubt he would of survived.

A wiseman once said 'Getting shot in the abodomen is bad, having your heart blown out the back of your spine is a bitch.'

Take notice of our felonious friends 's unscathed heart and cns.

[Baba Louie]

A couple of lessons can be learned from the picture and related story surg_res... doncha think?

Locked up in safe? Hmmmm. Might have kept the kids safe from harm but... maybe some time was lost there that could be better spent doing something more productive.

Thru and thru penetration you say? That appears to be a lot of penetration material and is something everyone should think about. FMJ solids v. Bigger (maybe) JHPs... might be worthwhile to keep handy even tho there's the old penetration vs expansion argument coming to bear. (we'll never know from this story/photo/incident tho, will we?)

COM till slide lock? 2 COM + 1 topside, repeat as necessary?

Shotgun?

Too bad the homeowner lost that fight. Really. Glad you saved a life (jus doin' your job I know... and thanks for doing your job)

[surg_res]

Here's another. This young man was a soldier, shot in the back of the head while "cleaning his gun" at home yesterday. Note the fragmentation of the HP with preservation of the core. Bullet retained. This guy survived for a while but went on to die this AM.



This bullet measured at 9.3mm on the scout x-ray... that is 9mm deformed. Hard to see the shape with all of the CT scan artifact. As a note, expansion occurs at the skull, as brain matter feels like grand-ma's fruit jello. It is possible to be shot in the brain and still be conscoius, so long as there isn't a lot of tissue shock.

[JohnKSa]

Did you get a chance to weigh the bullets? Be interesting to know if they're .380ACP or 9mm.

[Rimrod]

The homeowner is dead--after going for the pistol he had in his safe, a firefight ensued.

Four questions:

Do you know what kind of bullets the badguy was using and where the homeowner was hit?

Is there a point about the pistol safe? Obviously the homeowner was able to get to his pistol or there would have been no firefight and you wouldn't have any pictures to show us.

What is a FMG?

And if the bullets in the bad guy had expanded, would it have caused a fatal injury?

[pogo2]

This young man was a soldier, shot in the back of the head while "cleaning his gun" at home yesterday.

I presume from your use of quotes around "cleaning his gun" that you have some doubts about this explanation? I suppose most of us don't clean our guns behind our backs.

[Odd Job]

This bullet measured at 9.3mm on the scout x-ray... that is 9mm deformed

Don't be tempted to make calibre measurements from a CT scout or any other kind of diverging beam planar imaging such as plain films. You need quite a bit of prospective imaging to calculate the amount of magnification and then subtract it from the measurement. In tests I have done with inanimate 'subjects' and bullets fired in a homogenous medium, the results were not optimal, even though I employed the proper prospective imaging (a combination of plain film and CT on a purpose-built jig).
With a live patient and an asymmetrically-deformed and presented projectile, results will be sub-optimal before you even consider other confounding variables.

[Tom2]

Yes I would like to know more about the specific characteristics of the projectiles in the first photo before coming to any conclusion. Other than shot placement? Like it looks like panic shot placement possibly to me.

[overkill556x45]

I don't think a .45 would have been more useful in this case. A guy who can soak up multiple hits like that must have been out of his gourd on meth or something.In my opinion, a handgun may not be the best choice for home defense anyway. Before you lynch me, hear me out...

I haven't been in a lot of gunfights, but I've been in enough to know that a shotgun is man's best friend in a short range gunfight, and a short barreled variant would be ideal for home defense. Here's my reasoning:

1.) Using 00' buck means you get 9 projectiles in the air with one pull of the trigger. In a home you will be so close that all nine are likely to hit, and most will hit something the bad guy will need later- like a lung or major artery.

2.) When taking fire, it takes a lot of self-control to slow down and aim. With an 18" 12ga you look over the barrel and pull the trigger until he stops moving.

3.)There are few pistols I know of that can put nine projectiles in the air in a fraction of a second. The sheer force of being hit by a full load of 00 buck plus the concussion of the shot itself would probably buy you the time to pump in a fresh round and hit him with nine more projectiles.


That's my two cents. I know a lot of hand guns have stopped a lot of home invasions, but in my house it's an 18" Mossy 500 full of 00 or #4 shot.

[surg_res]

Four questions:

Do you know what kind of bullets the badguy was using and where the homeowner was hit?

Is there a point about the pistol safe? Obviously the homeowner was able to get to his pistol or there would have been no firefight and you wouldn't have any pictures to show us.

What is a FMG?

And if the bullets in the bad guy had expanded, would it have caused a fatal injury?

1. I don't know.

2. I don't know if it was a pistol safe or a personal safe w/ a gun.

3. FMG = foreign medical graduate (i slipped and meant to say FMJ)

4. One shot with certain potential lethality would have been the one through and through the clavicle. I think a better transfer of energy could have torn the adjacent subclavian vein or even artery--causing a lethal chest bleed. Overall I think that the lack of "shock" component was a serious problem. In my experience, I've come to the conclusion that neutralizing a threat with a firearm is probably more challenging than one would think.

Here is an excerpt from the news article on the incident:

"A predawn home invasion at a ------ apartment left ---------- dead of gunshot wounds and another man who police identified as the intruder seriously wounded by returned gunfire.

Shots went through the three units of the residence, with other occupants saying if the timing had been a little different there could have been several more casualties.

Police were summoned after 6:30 a.m. Monday by a resident in a townhouse triplex in the 1500 block of --------who reported a home invasion, said Carroll Smith, spokeswoman for the ------ Police Department.

Officers en route were advised shots had been fired inside the apartment, she said.

On arrival, police found ---------, the apartment owner, dead from gunshot wounds and his alleged attacker, a man as yet unidentified, in critical condition from gunshot wounds.

The suspect was flown by air ambulance to ----- Hospital in ------ where he was listed in critical condition late Monday.

After the intruder gained entry to Unit C, gunfire erupted. Bullets traveled through the walls of an upstairs bedroom to the adjoining apartment - Unit B.

One shot traversed all three apartments until it fell in the bedroom of 3-year-old Breann Dickerson in apartment Unit A."



Can you believe the part about wall penetration?

Hope this information was helpful. Bottom line is that the homeowner had a chance to neutralize his threat (obviated by the fact that he was able to deliver several bullets into our patient), however he failed to place lethal shots. I believe that it is difficult in such situations to place good shots and one should rely more on pure bullet mass and energy rather than luck.

Lastly, the CT scout and x-ray films have outstanding correlation when measuring static metalic objects. The computers we use to meausre take all factors into account and I have been right on "guesstimating" calibers nearly 100% of the time, especially when they are completely intact.

[surg_res]

shotgun is man's best friend

I can't disagree. Just remember that the spread of those OO buck pellets at the length of a room is going to be very little, probably 3-4 inches.... Makes you rethink using the old slug!

Anyone have any data to support or reject this?

[ZeSpectre]

4. The only shot with potential lethality would have been the one through and through the clavicle. I think a better transfer of energy could have torn the adjacent subclavian vein or even artery--causing a brisk bleed. Overall I think that the lack of "shock" component was a serious problem. In my experience, I've come to the conclusion that neutralizing a threat with a firearm is probably more challenging than one would think.

Precisely the sort of thing I've seen in the past. The human body has an astounding ability to ignore damage as long as the person doesn't freak out. I've seen someone shot who essentially then blurted out "oh, I've been shot, I'm going to die" and keeled over (actual a non-lethal wound and they survived). I've also seen a serious tough-guy (no drugs or other enhancements involved, just a very physically tough specimen of humanity) take six decent 9mm COM hits and walk himself into the ER. He had three through one lung, one past the heart brusing that sac (can't remember what it's called) and two deflected out to the side by ribs making a hideous but decidedly non-lethal pair of wounds. He died later due to the heart thing but at the time he was still "in the fight" and it took three of us to finish taking him down. Man that was UGLY!

My real point... you simply can't depend on just a firearm. It'll probably work but if it doesn't you GOTTA have a plan B

[cvb]

I say thanks for the very informative pix/scans.

[Rimrod]

surg_res, thanks for the follow up and the information.

I think a better transfer of energy could have torn the adjacent subclavian vein or even artery--causing a lethal chest bleed.

I'm thinking even with that, the homeowner would still be dead, right?

[JohnKSa]

I have been right on "guesstimating" calibers nearly 100% of the time

Except that in this case without knowing the weight, it would impossible to distinguish between 9mm and .380ACP and even knowing the weight there could be some ambiguity. With a measurement of 9.3mm, it could also be 9mmMakarov.

[epoch]

thanks for sharing,

I have no doubt that my nine would be piss poor for HD. I was thinking .45 or .38 super for HD, but that was just cause I wanted a nice pistol like that. Now I realize, if I am serious about HD, I should get a 18" remington 870. It's cheap and I belive it'd make that fool an x-fool permenantly. So, I'll ask the question that you seem to be prompting...

What is the point of a semi-auto for HD. I can see a big revolver maybe solving this fool, but I can see a nice shotgun solving it a lot easier and more reliably. Man I feel bad for the victim, he was ready enough but he didn't have the firepower.

keep in mind I love my nine. I'm not disrespecting that round, but this is cold hard proof that you gotta have something a hella lot bigger if you want to make a jacked up BG dead.

And if you live in a dangerous area like I do, there's no room for messing around. I'm getting that 18" 12ga real soon. Thanks for posting.

also where are you from surg_res. I just moved from Austin to Utah. lived in east austin proper off research...real bad area. Also lived off beecaves (nice) and also lived in RR right by Dell (not so nice). where abouts did this happen?

[Socrates]

Thanks for the post. Made me move the .475 within reach, at all times...

You think 400 grain XTP's at 1350 fps might have worked on him?

Socrates J.D.

[Odd Job]

@ surg_res

Further to what JohnKSa said, I must make a few comments (because you are obviously interested in gunshot wounds and it is best to sort out misconceptions early on in your endeavours):

Lastly, the CT scout and x-ray films have outstanding correlation when measuring static metalic objects. The computers we use to meausre take all factors into account and I have been right on "guesstimating" calibers nearly 100% of the time, especially when they are completely intact.

No, sir.
You might be able to differentiate between .25 and 9mm with ease, but that facility is available on plain films anyway, no CT needed.
All plain film X-ray imaging and CT scout imaging is derived from a diverging X-ray beam. The subject of the imaging will therefore ALWAYS be magnified. There is no way around this.
Attempts to work out the diameter of the bearing surface of the round by retrospective image analysis are confounded by several variables:

1) The distance between the tube anode and the retained bullet is not known AND/OR the distance between the retained bullet and the detector is not known.

2) The condition of the bullet is not known. Even if it is intact (proved to be a penetrating wound with no daughter fragments) the bullet may be deformed on its long axis. in other words, it may be 'out of round.' To adjust for this requires imaging in two planes, where the long axis of the retained projectile is parallel to the tube axis, and the two results are then averaged. In practical radiography and CT imaging that means that retained bullets in the chest and abdomen must be aligned so that their long axis is parallel to the coronal or sagittal plane of the patient. As soon as one attitude of the bullet tends towards an axial presentation, you have the failure to measure the appropriate interval on the bearing surface, and you have foreshortening and elongation of the image shadow to boot.

3) Geometric unsharpness. X-rays are not produced from a point source. They are produced from a sub-millimetric area on the tube anode. This area may be specified on the equipment data sheet as being a 0.6mm sq area but tests by your medical physics department will render a focal spot size that is rectangular and may be 0.8mm on one side. This is because equipment manufacturers provide a NOMINAL focal spot size, a best approximate. The effect of geometric unsharpness is to add penumbra to the image shadow (a very small amount of 'extra' shadow on either side of the bullet's bearing surface). That has to be factored in with ordinary magnification derived from the position of the round somewhere between the tube and the detector.

More to follow (I am on my way to work)...

[The Body Bagger]

Excellent information with first hand knowledge of how actual bullets perform. Thank you for the post. I only get a chance to see the immediate after effects, then they either go via ambulance of via body bag. I never have much of an opportunity to see the actual performance of the bullets.

[joshua]

Very interesting. The thought of facing a fairly big, either obese or muscular opponent will dictate which magazine for my S&W 5906 9mm I will use. I tend to pack the last 2 mags with fmj with my reasoning as if I'm unable to stop my opponent with hollow points then I need all the penetration I can have. With your post I will keep in mind to go for the shotgun if ever needed to defend my home and family. This definitely changes my way of thinking in relying on my 9mm for defense, I'm stepping up my handgun on standby duty to my 1911s in 45 acp and 10mm. josh

[Dourdave]

The discussion about a shotgun begs a question: In the confined space of a hallway or bedroom, what undesireable effects can be expected from the shotgun blast ? [For example, muzzle flash (blinding or starting a fire) and noise shock wave (physical shock, ear damage, etc.).]

Dave

[Double Naught Spy]

Well Dourdave, unless your meth lab is in the hallway or bedroom or you sort anything with a lot of volatile fumes, you really don't have to worry about the muzzle blast catching anything on fire.

Blinding muzzle blast? Depends on the load and the barrel length along with the amount of lighting in the hallway. If the lights are on, the flash isn't blinding at all.

Noise shock wave? Won't do much but hurt your ears. A little hearing loss is nothing compared to being seriously injured or killed.

Now all your begged questions have been answered.

[eme]

Not trying to flame anyone, but do you really thing the owner who is dead would have cared about ear damage or flash or anything else if he had a second chance to use a better weapon for SD? When people ask me what is the best SD for the house I tell them a shotgun, with the proper load, is my choice. And I always tell them to let the BG come to you, (if possible) don't go searching for BG unless there are others involved, like children or parents in other bedrooms or rooms. Again these are just my ideas for SD, I'm sure others have their own ideas also. Just sad that the GG is dead and the BG is alive.

[Rogueone]

Can you believe the part about wall penetration?

If you don't, you need to watch Personal Defense TV from last week. One segment was about just that, and a trainer from Valhalla had set up 4 "walls" to simulate a hallway, and 2 rooms. The purpose of course was to see how far the bullets would go. He was only taking single shots, which was a problem with the 9mm he tested.

The 9 deviated it's course after the 2nd wall, caught the third, then it had veered enough it missed the 4th (these "walls" were small so not hard for this to happen). All the other normal handgun rounds went right thru the walls, drywall isn't going to stop a bullet.

With 00 buck, if I recall, the elements that hit the 4th wall entered but did not leave, so there would still have been a "problem" for anyone in the first 2 rooms. With #7 or #9 birdshot, I seem to recall it also making it to the 3rd wall. Glaser rounds were the least likely to have an unintended hit into that first room (less shot getting that far). Just can't remember how they ended up. And Slugs, hell NO for HD. You'd have to be an idiot to use slugs for HD. If you think over penetration with a .45 or 9mm is bad, imagine a slug? It'll go thru every wall then out the exterior wall unless you have block walls I guess. There'd be no stopping a slug with normal house walls, so especially in an apartment like this case, that would be a terrible choice.

The 'bird' shots are probably best, as their shot will carry less energy through walls and obstructions, but will put so many pellets into a perp in such a concentrated area, it'll be plenty effective. Since it takes a while for either to spread, the birdshot is so tightly packed at the ranges of a typical HD shooting it makes a very large hole.

Personally, I have no qualms about 9mm versus any other handgun round. It's a matter of using a proper round (HP or Magsafe/Glaser, not FMJ) and shot placement. Obviously, the guy shot here was not shot in any critical areas, and regardless what you are using, if you miss the critical areas, you're not going to be effective in stopping the person. Do feel bad for the guy who died, he got what, 5-9 shots, into the perp without any critical hits? bummer