Load data for Winchester 158 Grain JHP for 357

[CowTowner]

Here's the deal:
I was given 200 sealed in the bags 158 Grain JHP bullets made by Winchester.
I'm having trouble either seeing or finding load data for these.
I got 8 lbs. of H110 that works great with 158 grain Hornady XTP's, but do I use the same loading data for the Winchester bullets?

[joneb]

what's your H110 load using XTPs ? Can you compare the two bullets, diameter, length of driving band, and the distance from the base of the bullet to the crimp groove center ?
You could start at 16.2 and work up, this would be a 3% reduction for the recommended max load from my Hogdon data.

[Ozzieman]

For a 158 GR bullet using H110
This does require a Mag primer
MAX: 17.8 GR of H110 shows 1330 Muzzle Velocity
MIN: 15.8 GR of H110 shows 1263 Muzzle Velocity
Speer got this data shooting them out of a 6 inch Ruger security six
I would agree with jibjab, starting with 16.2 as a starting point and work up.
Different manufacture bullet types of the same weight only change there ballistic coefficient.
As long as they are the same weight, the same load will work fine and is safe.

[CowTowner]

Thank you. I was looking for the safe to go part.
I have been loading the Hornady bullets with Magnum primers and 15.0 grains of H110. Not the max according to their manual, but fairly accurate in my 4 inch Ruger GP100.

[joneb]

Cow Towner,
H110 and W296 should not be reduced by more than 3% from the maximum loading, most other powders can be reduced by 10% from max. to give a starting load but not H110/W296.You should also use a Heavy Crimp, and as Ozzieman stated use only Magnum primers with H110/W296 as these powders are hard to ignite.

[Ozzieman]

H110 is a “MAGNUM” powder and should not be loaded below minimum levels showed in the reloading manuals. It has to do with the flash hole of the primer when the gun is held at a low angle the hole will not make contact with the powder. When the primer ignites it will flame over the top of the powder and the pressure can be much higher.
If you want to try lighter loads go away from H110. H110 is a great magnum powder but a very poor light load powder.
If you’re trying for a lighter load try 231 or Red Dot.

[CowTowner]

I'm going by the Hornady Seventh Edition manual, page 825. For 158 Grain HP-XTP, it shows a Max of 15.6 gr. of H110 with a Mag primer. I load mine one step down at 15 gr. of H110 with a Mag primer and use a Lee FCD to do the final crimping. Using jibjab's 3% rule, I should be loading them with no less 15.132 gr of H110 with Mag primer, if my math is correct. (I've been wrong before and will be again).
However, I am no where near the minimum level in the manual of 12.7 gr.
Hey guys, I'm just following the book. If Hornady is wrong, then you guys with the practical experience and knowledge might want to consider assisting them in writing it correctly, IMHO.

[joneb]

This conflicting data is annoying I have Hornady data for .357 mag. that lists 14.1gr to 15.8gr of H110 for FP/XTP and HP/XTP both using Fed 200 primers and both with a C.O.L. of 1.590".
This is from Hodgdon's 2006 manual; reloading.jpg This manual for .357 mag lists 16.7gr of H110 for the 158gr XTP w/ Win SPM primers.

[CowTowner]

Now we have come back to the reason I posted this to begin with. What load data can I safely use to load the 158 gr. JHP Winchester bullets using WSPM primers and H110 for my Ruger .357 Magnum?
The Hornady data is obviously confusing, but is what I have used for my HP-XTP loads and they work beautifully for me.
I'm sure I didn't help with my clear as mud opening thread.

[Redneck with a 40]

I run 16.6 grains of 296 behind my Nosler 158 JHP's, CCI magnum primer, heavy crimp, they chrono right at 1300 fps from my 4" barrel.

[Theodore]

Need a good recipe for a 160 gr Hardcast Kieth style. This will be used on wild hogs and coyotes out of a Marlin...I'm not interested in super hot loads, but do want something that will penetrate a big hog thru and thru (300lbs). One that big would be the exception but 150 lbs is the average..I've got all the reloading manuals but would like some info from someone who has "been there and done that"

[rg1]

Midway's 357mag LoadMap handbook shows 15 grains of h110 with the Win 158gr sjhp bullet gives 29300 psi. With the Hornady 158XTP with 15 grains of H110 it shows 31000 psi. XTP's JHP had an o.a.l. of1.570" and Win 158 sjhp had an o.a.l. of 1.565". By their test XTP's have a little more pressure with the same load. 15.2 grains of H110 with the 158XTP gave 1492fps at 31700psi. 15.4 grains of H110 and the Win 158 sjhp got 1509fps and 30700 psi.
Note that this was from a test barrel not a revolver. They used Win cases and Win SPmagnum primers in their tests. I'd still work up loads in your pistol with your components even though it appears XTP data would be ok with Win 158gr bullets.

[Ozzieman]

10th edition from 1979. When men were men and guns were guns.
I would say that the load differences iver the years are from the lawyers running the company instead of gun people.
The only lead bullet that I have a load for is the 158 GR wadcutter.
I really like 231 powders because it’s so clean and works well in lower pressure rounds.
My book shows the following.
5.4 GR of 231 for 969 FPS MAX
4.9 GR of 231 for 897 FPS Min.

[Unclenick]

You’ve seen that if you take Hodgdon’s 3% off some listed maximum loads, the result is greater than for some other full load recommendations? The last published Winchester data doesn’t even have a range; just one charge for each bullet weight. Even worse, Hodgdon itself recommends a 16.7 grain maximum for a 158 grain XTP bullet, then gives 15 grains as a minimum. That’s over 10% difference. Then you go poking around bullet manufacturer manuals and find still different data. What’s one to think about the ever confusing and contradictory H110/296 load data?

Most people just assume the 3% warning has to do with the risk of creating overpressure, either from detonation or a mechanism like Ozzieman described. Nope. This powder doesn’t behave any differently from any other in this regard. Lower charge means lower pressure. Once the charge gets very small you can worry about detonation, but that usually means >90% unfilled powder space (though I like to switch to faster powders before slow powders reach 50% of available volume – just in case).

The 3% warning actually has to do with under-pressure, and, as far as I know, is a problem unique to revolvers. In a rifle you don’t need to use H110/296 any differently than any other powder. Here’s the revolver problem: when poorly lit H110/296 starts to burn, it can push a bullet out of the case into the lands before it has burned very far. Because a revolver has a barrel-to-cylinder gap, the pressure that pushes the bullet into the barrel can bleed off through that gap faster than a poorly lit charge of H110/296 replaces it. The result is the pressure drops to where the main powder mass fizzles, like burning in open air. It is also possible for the weakly ignited powder at the rear of the case to push a lot of the rest of the charge forward with the bullet without lighting it. The result is a bullet stuck in the barrel. The danger is that of the squib shot going unnoticed and the gun owner firing the next round with that obstruction in the bore. There is no guarantee both shots will squib out. So, indirectly, the high pressure theorists were right. Just not as to which shot they could expect it from?

How to work up a load, then? The trick for a revolver is getting sure ignition without getting excess pressure. To guarantee good ignition the best bet is keeping the powder over the flashhole, and that means keeping the case basically full. As a practical matter, 90% full or better seems to be about where the commercial load recommendation minimums are. To figure a starting load of H110/296 for a particular revolver load, just measure how far you will seat the bullet base in? That will be the length of the bullet plus the length of the case, minus the COL you intend to use. With your caliper set to the resulting seating depth, mark the inside of the case with the tip of its depth stem. Marking inside with a Magic Marker first creates an easy place to see the scratch line. Set your powder measure and adjust it until it throws the powder just level with that line. When it does, weigh the result. Knock off 10% and check the result against the loading manuals to be sure it doesn’t exceed the published maximum load for your bullet. If not, that should be a safe minimum revolver load, regardless what percent below the maximum it is? If it is over the maximum limit, I would choose a different powder. The advantage of this method is that it compensates for the different lengths of different bullet shapes, a problem the fixed load per bullet weight numbers don’t deal with, and one that is likely responsible for much of the variation in load recommendations you’ve seen.

[WESHOOT2]

WHAT UNCLENICK SAID:
Another issue with reduced loads of 'slow burners', the twice-lit woe, where the initial ignition lights SOME powder, allowing the case to release the bullet enough to move it out of the case mouth, then the REST of the powder ignites, but now in the wrong place at the wrong time (what REALLY killed the 357 Maximum).
WHAT UNCLENICK SAID (and I repeated).

The differences in manuals is due to the "my stuff ain't your stuff" thing, more efficiently stated "....in MY gun...."

Those who own matching guns and a chrono understand this completely.

For the original query, different bullet alloys, jacket material itself, or size can make a 'difference', so simply start low and work up.

I have two Speer manuals, Lyman P&R #2, Sierra # sumptin', Hodgdon 26 & 27 (and every Annual Manual), Accurate #1, an old Hornady (feel like I'm missing one or two), and data pamphlets from forever.
I also have accumulated published and/or pressure-tested data since 1975.
I have alotta data.

Then there's MY data (and some of it from not-my-own guns).

I see considerable variations LOL.

So I start low and chrono-map my way up........safely.
Mostly.

[Unclenick]

And dittos back at Weshoot2.

H110/296 is really at its best with cartridges whose powder space under the bullet base is not much over 3 times as deep as it is wide. Long cases, like the .357 Maximum, or the .460 S&W Magnum can get into difficulties from shoving too much of the unburned powder forward too early.

All the fine grained ball powders are harder for a low pressure initial flame front to move through than through a stick or large grain ball powder. The grain interstices are too small. There is too much fluid friction, and the slow powders don't build pressure fast enough to force hot gas through those tight spaces until the bullet is on its way down the tube. By then, the powder isn't tightly packed any more, so the issue becomes a moot.

[sw_florida]

I don't reload, but I just got a box of Sellier&Bellot .357 mag 158 gr. At 1399 ft/s it develops 683 ft/lbs. The Fiocchi .357 mag 148 gr is listed at 1500 ft/s and 750 ft/lbs, I think. If you have a strong handgun you can up today's whimpy loading tables with 20%. I mean, 1250 ft/s?

[Sport45]

Originally Posted by sw florida

If you have a strong handgun you can up today's whimpy loading tables with 20%. I mean, 1250 ft/s?

Whoa there, big fella! I know you said you don't reload, but it's not a good idea to recommend that folks can just up their loads by 20%. Every powder will give a different velocity at the cartridge's (firearm's) maximum pressure. The cartridge manufactures have access to different blends of powder than we do. They also will sometimes publish velocity data from test barrels that do not reflect what we would see if we shot that same ammo over a chronograph. Velocity is an indicator of pressure to a degree but it WILL NOT tell you if the load is safe.

A loading of 20% over any of todays maximum published loads could damage a firearm and possibly harm the operator and/or bystanders.