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February 6, 2008, 03:57 AM | #1 |
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Whats stronger? a 10mm auto round, or the 357 magnum?
Looking for a 357 magnum or have been, but then i saw a really cheap SW610 in 10mm auto, like what goes to the Glock 20 or Smith Wesson 1076. Just wanted to know what power level would you classify the 10mm and it's stopping power? and how does it stack up to the 357 magnum?
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February 6, 2008, 08:04 AM | #2 |
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Maximum loadings for each cartridge produce similiar amounts of energy (upwards of 700 tf/lbs). The 10mm starts out slightly bigger before expanding. The .357 has a wider selection of bullet styles readily available, since most .40 caliber bullets are designed for reliable feeding in shell chuckers which puts constraints on the design.
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February 6, 2008, 08:04 AM | #3 | |
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February 6, 2008, 08:08 AM | #4 |
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at the risk of getting ripped being the 1st responder ( er ah well... I guess 2nd responder )... 10mm generally has a heavier bullet of slightly bigger bore, the 357 Mag holds more powder, so often with the lighter bullet has more velocity...
handloading, of course offers more versatility in both cartridges, but the case size is still smaller on the 10mm, so while handloading you can go with a heavier ( to more equal the 10mm bullet weight ), with the 357, but you can not match the 357's case capacity with the 10mm without looking at the factory energy levels, IIRC brand for brand / load for load, trying to get bullet weights as close as possible... the 357 has slightly higher factory energy levels than the 10mm, but they are pretty close
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February 6, 2008, 08:20 AM | #5 |
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Socrates posts good data but keep in mind.
1. Double Tap is first and foremost the home of true 10mm ammo. 2. .357 Mag is more widely available in full power loadings. Mind you, I love the 10mm and am a big Double Tap fan. You have to remember though that there is little need for Mike at DT to come up with 357 loadings when there are plenty out there already, hence the small selection of data for DT 357 rounds.
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February 6, 2008, 03:01 PM | #6 |
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+1 on the advice above - about equal power when the 10mm is pushed. More versatility with the .357 - so many more years of development, guns out there, and ammo made.
Now on the other hand, the 610 is an interesting gun, and I'd sure put one of those in my safe if it came by "cheap" as you said. N-frame smiths are a joy to shoot and own. |
February 6, 2008, 03:29 PM | #7 |
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Something of overkill maybe...
The .357 Magnum only has 3 loads that get into the energy levels of the 10mm and all of these are full-power loads. The .41 Magnum was added to illustrate the near-ballistic equivilancy between the 10mm and .41 Mag. Energy Tables for .357 Magnum, 10mm and .41 Remington Magnum Sorted by energy level .357 Magnum Brand.. Caliber Wgt.... Vel..... Energy Type Fiocchi 357 Mag 148.... 1500.... 739.... SJHP Dbl Tap 357 Mag 125.... 1600.... 710.... Dbl Tap 357 Mag 158.... 1400.... 688.... Federal 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... HiShokJHP Fiocchi 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... SJSP Rem.... 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... GSHP Speer.. 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... GDHP Win.... 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... JHP Win.... 357 Mag 180.... 1180.... 556.... PGHP Fiocchi 357 Mag 158.... 1250.... 548.... XTP Federal 357 Mag 158.... 1240.... 539.... HSHP Win.... 357 Mag 145.... 1290.... 536.... STHP Rem.... 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... SJHP Rem.... 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... LSWC Speer.. 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... GDHP Win.... 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... JHP Rem.... 357 Mag 180.... 1145.... 524.... SJHP Rem.... 357 Mag 125.... 1220.... 413.... SJHP Speer.. 357 Mag 135.... 1000.... 300.... GDHP/SB 10mm/.41 Magnum Win.... .41 Mag 240.... 1250.... 833.... PTHP Federal .41 Mag 210.... 1300.... 788.... JHP Rem.... .41 Mag 210.... 1300.... 788.... JSP Speer.. .41 Mag 210.... 1300.... 788.... GDHP Dbl Tap 10mm... 135.... 1600.... 767.... Dbl Tap 10mm... 155.... 1475.... 749.... Federal .41 Mag 250.... 1160.... 747.... CastCore Dbl Tap 10mm... 165.... 1425.... 744.... Dbl Tap 10mm... 180.... 1350.... 728.... Dbl Tap 10mm... 165.... 1400.... 718.... Federal .41 Mag 180.... 1340.... 718.... Barnes Dbl Tap 10mm... 180.... 1330.... 707.... Federal .41 Mag 210.... 1230.... 705.... JHP Dbl Tap 10mm... 200.... 1250.... 694.... Dbl Tap 10mm... 180.... 1300.... 675.... Win.... .41 Mag 175.... 1250.... 607.... STHP Dbl Tap 10mm... 230.... 1040.... 552....
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February 6, 2008, 04:32 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
.41 Magnum Brand.. Caliber Wgt.... Vel..... Energy Type Buf Bor 41...... 265..... 1350.. 1072... LWN-GC Buf Bor 41...... 230..... 1450.. 1074... SWC Buf Bor 41...... 170..... 1650.. 1028... JHP The .357 and 10mm max out about the same, and it's only about 3/4's of the energy the .41 Magnum is capable of. |
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February 6, 2008, 06:11 PM | #9 |
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I'd go with the 357Magnum. The 10mm is kinda lost it's glammer. Several reasons.............hpg
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February 6, 2008, 06:54 PM | #10 |
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10mm
Actually, not to start a debate the 10mm never lost anything except the inability for inexperienced shooters to feel comfortable in shooting these gems during qualifications in various L.E. Organizations to include federal agencies. Bottomline the true 10mm is like a 41 auto mag. It's SUPERB. That's why it did so phenominally in the FBI test when they went away from 9mm because of the ineffective 147 grain 9mm round they used during that infamous Shootout where two guys had ruger mini 14's and were not stopped soon enough with their duty weapons ammo. The 10mm was what many department followed suite in going to but they had major issue's with small hands and inexperienced shooters shooting well with them because of greater muzzle blast and felt recoil. Basically, the early 90's saw a wave of "ladies" and nonmilitary college grads flooding into LE that just couldn't handle this fine round and they feared that it would carry over into combat which rightfully is a justified concern. As for me, I'd take a Glock 20 or Smith 1076 or 1026 over about any semiauto handgun for combat as well as a 45acp any day of the week and Ive been a Police Officer for 14years and served as an infantry machinegunner in the USMC before that, just my opinion. Then again because of the lack of demand the cost on the ammo if you can find it is outrageous. You could effectively hunt game with a 10mm though.
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February 6, 2008, 08:31 PM | #11 | |||
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To add fat to the fire, from Buffalobore.com
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.41 can go places either the 10 or .357 can only dream of, when bullets start getting heavy. I also suspect in rifles, you could use light .41 bullets, and get rifle like velocities you couldn't with the other two. |
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February 7, 2008, 06:31 PM | #12 |
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I have a Glock 20 in 10mm and a Smith & Wesson 686P in .357 Magnum, and for me anyway, I can shoot small groups with the revolver MUCH easier than the semi-auto. I do like the smaller size of the Glock, but if I am hunting it is the Smith every time. The Glock works nicely for self-defense though.
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February 7, 2008, 07:25 PM | #13 |
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In true top end loadings (Buffalo Bore and Double Tap) they're about the same.
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February 8, 2008, 03:29 PM | #14 |
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The .357 ain't what it once was....
But it can be if you handload in a strong enough gun! The original .357 Magnum loading was a 158 SWC that clocked 1550fps from the 8 3/8" S&W. And you can still get that today, by handloading in a strong long barrel revolver.
But you won't get that power level from most factory ammo. Even the "hotter" standard loads are reduced from what they were decades ago, in deference to the fact that the majority of .357s today are medium frame revolvers. That being said, I love the .357. But I am also a handloader, and I shoot .357 mostly in N frame S&Ws. Don't have any personal experience with the 10mm, but I will tell you that even if the energy tops some .357 loads, you will have to work a lot harder on a service style autoloader to match a good quality revolver. Revolvers have an advantage with their ability to shoot SWC bullets which translates into increased effectiveness in many situations. On the other hand, only 6 shots, and reloads are a bit slower than with an auto. On the other hand, the barrel is fixed with the sights. But the chambers aren't. On the other hand, (how many hands are we up to?) Mostly it boils down to your personal preference for a revolver or an auto. Except at the outside end of the power range, there isn't going to be a lot of difference that the target can tell.
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February 8, 2008, 03:55 PM | #15 |
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I can't figure out which one I like the best, revolver or semi.
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February 9, 2008, 12:43 AM | #16 |
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How much is a really cheap SW 610? That is usually an expensive gun.
You can always shoot .40's too.
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February 9, 2008, 02:18 AM | #17 |
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ATW,
Thanks for pointing out the Buffalo Bore .41 mag loads. In as much as I don't use my Model 57 as an anti-tank weapon (or a Grizzly Gun) I tend to overlook this brand. I was working off the initial factory-standard load for the .41 Mag being a 210g@1300fps and showing that the "full house" 10mm is "close enough" to qualify as the .41 Mag of autoloaders. And it will produce almost 50% more recoil over the original load. This is not going to be a load one can easily double-tap a target with!
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February 9, 2008, 02:39 AM | #18 |
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The 10mm and .357Mag are very similar in top end performance. Close enough that I wouldn't pick a clear winner. In terms of availability & price, the .357Mag is going to come out on top.
The .41 Mag is far above either round although there are some lightly loaded .41 Mag loadings that are very similar in performance to the 10mm. This chart is a little busy but you can get some idea of the performance levels of factory ammunition for the rounds plotted.
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February 9, 2008, 02:42 AM | #19 |
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If this was 1985, I'd vote for the 10mm Auto hands down.
The reason? This was the era of the first batch of Norma loads. They were 200 truncated cone FMJ. Hotter than the hinges of hell. They were so hot, in fact, that Harlene over at Dornaus & Dixon recommended that I stop using them. We figured out a responsible reload when my Bren Ten had to go back for service. The slide came back, sheared off the rowel of my hammer and it glanced off my face. Like I said, hot. Norma quickly distributed another batch, a tad attenuated. To differentiate one load from another, Norma put a little stamp on the primer cup that looked to me like "NP" but with the letters tightly together. Mr. Dornaus completely rebuilt my pistol and it worked flawlessly. I never fired a full house load in it again. I also owned a Delta Elite and a Double Eagle in 10mm Auto. There was still controversy in the gun rags about the recoil assemblies "beating themselves to death" in Colt pistols. Both of mine worked great, no excessive wear or peening. However, we are now into a different era for the 10mm Auto. The bullets were lighter, and loaded down. The best was the 175 grain Silver Tip,which was actually geared more for hunting. Dick Metcalf was the lone voice on that round. I owned a box, but lost interest after I found out that the bullets would not be sold separately for reloaders. So we are now in modern times. It would appear to me that both the .357 and the 10mm now throw a bullet about the same weight, that being in the 125 to 175 grain weight. As a reloader, we're talking about bullets that might as well be twins. Depending on the load, they drop the same size deer. Now, if you want to go by published data, my belief is that the .357 probably leads the pack. However, if you really want to settle this debate in the real world, let's get some old Norma rounds or some reloading info from 1985. Hands down, the 10mm will win. Yeah, yeah, it's a ringer, I know. |
February 9, 2008, 10:53 AM | #20 | |
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In the end, I certainly wouldn't want to get hit with either (or a .22, for that matter). |
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February 9, 2008, 01:12 PM | #21 |
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Comparing factory loads out of a 4" rev. and hodgdon longshot reloads in a semi auto the 10mm has 30% more energy than .357 mag.
If you like the 10 auto.. I personally don't like it as reloading for semi autos is much more error prone than reloading for revolvers because of issues with bullet seatback, non supporting chambers, Glock etc. |
February 9, 2008, 04:28 PM | #22 |
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I suppose nobody has mentioned how handy moonclips are. There isn't nor ever will be a better speedloader.
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February 10, 2008, 08:43 AM | #23 |
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sissie Norma rds
'Handloading' gives the 10mm props.
Customer 10mm feedback: "...the 135g Nosler 1756fps (6" Glock = 1821fps)...the 155g Gold Dot 1503fps (6" Glock = 1569fps)...for the 180g XTP load I got 1372fps (6" Glock = 1428fps)...your 200g+P+...1327fps (6" Glock = 1378fps) from the 5" pipe..." Thank you Tourist for popping in with real-life experience ('cause some folks don't believe just how HOT! those originals really were). 10mm = hobby cartridge still. But nice in the 610.
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February 10, 2008, 08:47 AM | #24 |
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on the matter of 41 Magnum
It SMASHES the 10mm; absolutely NO comparison.
Whatsoever. At all. Zip. Zero. Nada. Not even close....
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February 10, 2008, 11:08 AM | #25 |
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To me this becomes a question of launching platform and performance.
With an 8 3/8" pre-27 I can toss 6 158 lead SWC at 1500 fps by over current book max loads but loads that originally were considered safe when the gun came out. With a 5" 1911 10mm I can toss 8 200 grn FMJ to 1200 with over current book max loads but loads that originally were considered safe when the gun came out. So which is better and stronger? The one you can actually hit with and are willing to carry.
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