The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 5, 2008, 08:48 PM   #1
DaveInPA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2008
Location: Berks County, PA
Posts: 1,106
Alright once and for all, is it ok to reload self defense ammo?

I'm wondering if I'm ok loading my own self defense ammo. I know the rule of thumb is to run at least 500 rounds of the ammo you want to carry for SD through your gun before you trust it when it's loaded in the gun strapped to your hip. Well, running 500 rounds of factory JHP .45 ACP ammo through my 1911 would get real expensive, real quick.

I'd much rather load my own JHP rounds, test the hell out of them for way less money, and then carry them. I've heard the argument that if you were to god forbid have to shoot someone in self defense and you used hand loaded ammunition, that you would be in legal trouble somehow. Is there any truth at all to this? How would anyone even know you were using reloads in the first place?

I hope this can be cleared up to some extent!
DaveInPA is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 08:49 PM   #2
mrawesome22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2005
Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills.
Posts: 3,779
I do. They've proven just as reliable in my gun so why not?

I am a God fearing man, not a jury fearing man. If they want to lock me up for defending myself against people who would harm my loved ones or myself, then God help us all.

If you break into my house while I'm at home, God help you.
mrawesome22 is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:00 PM   #3
rwilson452
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2004
Location: Tioga co. PA
Posts: 2,647
Using your own could give the prosecuter a little ammo to paint you in some bad light. I would think that the defense should have no problem with this if properly prepared used a preemptive attack. I think 500 rounds of carry ammo is extreme. I don't think 500 rounds of like ammo is extreme. I would want to put 500 down range to insure the darn thing works as advertised. I use store bought for carry and cycle it down range yearly. actually I buy new every year then use up a mag of old stuff at the end of practice sessions, then I make some up to replicate the recoil and feel factors.

Dave, go make up some ammo and shoot it.



Quote:
I'm wondering if I'm ok loading my own self defense ammo. I know the rule of thumb is to run at least 500 rounds of the ammo you want to carry for SD through your gun before you trust it when it's loaded in the gun strapped to your hip. Well, running 500 rounds of factory JHP .45 ACP ammo through my 1911 would get real expensive, real quick.

I'd much rather load my own JHP rounds, test the hell out of them for way less money, and then carry them. I've heard the argument that if you were to god forbid have to shoot someone in self defense and you used hand loaded ammunition, that you would be in legal trouble somehow. Is there any truth at all to this? How would anyone even know you were using reloads in the first place?

I hope this can be cleared up to some extent!
rwilson452 is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:01 PM   #4
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,755
This is a question that will never, EVER have a cut & dried right or wrong answer. Anyone who believes it does is nuts. You've got to go whichever direction makes the most sense to you.

I will say that I think it's goofy that anyone needs to buy 500 rounds of defense ammo to properly test and/or train. You can simulate defense ammo with handloads, and you should certainly put a box or two of your defense ammo through your protection arm.

I live in a world where crazy and ridiculous things happen, and sometimes, those crazy and ridiculous things happen to good people. I am good people. If you go by the numbers, you could probably convince yourself that you won't be at the wrong end of an over-zealous young prosecutor. However, numbers can convince you of MANY things. Folks that believe they shouldn't ever have a handgun in the same house as young children ought to look up the real life data on five gallon buckets.

With a lot (a LOT) of thought put in to this over the years, and with twenty years at the loading bench, my self-defense ammo is the 175 grain Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm, right out of a box of twenty from the factory. And outside of rimfire fodder, I don't buy factory ammo in any caliber any more. I just don't use the stuff, and I don't want to use it. I'd rather use my own. But factory ammo protects my home.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:03 PM   #5
Torch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: The piney woods of Texas
Posts: 111
Yes.

When others can demonstrate that loading your own is a legal mistake I might change my mind. Until then, I do load my own and my answer is yes.
Torch is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:13 PM   #6
Magnum Mike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2007
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 347
I'll worry about that if I make it through the "Use of DEADLY FORCE" situation!
Magnum Mike is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:13 PM   #7
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
If you want to be safe, just reload the brass using the same bullet the mfgr does. Then who's gonna know?
__________________
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
Dave R is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:17 PM   #8
wjkuleck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2007
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,220
Quote:
When others can demonstrate that loading your own is a legal mistake I might chance my mind. Until then I do load my own and my answer is yes.
Mas Ayoob has covered this ad nauseam, with cites. Ayoob is frequently employed as an expert witness in shootings, and has some little experience in this area.

Now, are the odds fer ye, or agin ye, that the prosecutor assigned to your case will make something of it? Dunno, but remember that they're paid to use every means available to them to put you away; if they don't win their cases, they lose their jobs, which means that you're likely to find not only the ammo an issue, but also any aftermarket item on your pistol.

The safe bet? Carry the pistol & ammo your local gendarmerie is issued.

Regards,

Walt
__________________
Author, NEW! The M1911 Complete Owner's Guide
The M14
and M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guides
The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide
The AR-15 Complete Assembly
and (New 4th Edition) Owner's Guides
wjkuleck is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:26 PM   #9
TEDDY
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2006
Location: MANNING SC
Posts: 837
self defence

it also would depend on the area you were in in say NY or CAL or MASS you might be in trouble.be safe the factory ammo one box isnot going to cost that much.
TEDDY is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 09:31 PM   #10
ice monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 416
“Another myth is that “there’s no reason not to use handloads for self-defence, and there has never been a case of anyone getting into trouble for using them.” That’s an urban myth, on both counts.”
- Massad Ayoob, Combat Hanguns, May 2007

You’ll need to pay me big time to type out the whole story lol – but after reading it … brother I tell you what, I went out and spent a fortune on those Cor Bons I love so much, and have never loaded my hand rolled anywhere but the back 50 plinking, or at the range.

If it helps, After the first $100 making sure the Cor Bons were reliable in my pistol, being pissed at the cost and all – I asked my wife to read the story too (she’s a lawyer). “Yeah I can see it,” was her response to being nailed for using hand loads.

Back to the store for more Cor Bons lol.

I don't know how many rounds you need to put through your pistol to feel comfortable that it's a good fit - but I will never use anything but factory loading for self defence. Hope that helps
ice monkey is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 10:35 PM   #11
somerled
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2005
Location: eastern Kansas
Posts: 603
Get the best training and legal advice you can beforehand. Listen to the experts. You have little or no idea if we are experts or not. Your life will be hell after a shooting--you will have "legal problems" and might face civil proceedings as well as criminal charges. You will also be tried in your community and by the media. I suspect if you used reloads, the investigators will haul off every scrap of your equipment and supplies. They might do that anyway. They might seize your computer and make this thread part of the case file.

Do anything you can to tilt the odds your way now. Wear white-flowing robes, perch a dove on your shoulder and convince the neighbors you're a peace-loving and reasonable man who wouldn't dream of hurting a living thing unless it was absolutely the last option. Visit nursing homes, coach Little League teams, volunteer as a candy striper at the hospital.

I think it would inflame more juries if I used ExtremeShock's "Fang Face" factory ammo over my reloads.
somerled is offline  
Old March 5, 2008, 10:35 PM   #12
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
First off, I'm not a big Ayoob fan, and for a number of reasons going all the way back to some BS he pulled on a sister agency that STILL hasn't recovered from it some twenty-plus years later.

Second, geography has a lot to do with my choice of ammo. Here in Texas, I carry pretty much whatever I want. When I'm in rural areas of Texas, I couldn't care less what I carry--be it reloads or factory. Rural Texas district attorneys don't push for indictments on righteous shootings. Not only do they get run out of office, they get ostracized by their own folks.

If I lived in Pennsylvania. I think all I'd carry for self defense would be whatever the local cops carry. Same goes for NYC, anywhere in California, and since pedophiles are more welcome than gun owners in Massachusetts, I think I'd carry a slingshot with cotton balls as my ammo.

Actually, I think I'd rather carry Rosie O'Donnel's tampons than live in Massachusetts.

When it comes to this kind of "legal advice," this is the WRONG place to be seeking it. Ain't none of us going to testify on your behalf if you get in a shooting. And "well, the guys on the internet at TFL said. . . " isn't a real strong defense either.

Call up the local DA's office and ask to speak to one of their prosecutors and get it from the horse's ass, er, MOUTH, instead. Then document the conversation (wouldn't hurt to record it) by date, time and who you spoke with. It could still come down to "he said, she said," but if you did all of the previous, it would show that you were trying to be as responsible and civic-minded as possible.

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 12:15 AM   #13
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
How about this:
Find a commercial defense load you like, and reload something just like it to use for 95% of your practice.
zxcvbob is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 01:20 AM   #14
ice monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 416
TexasSeaRay and somerled are 100% right.

I will say this though - until you get legal, I have never heard of some one having a hard go of it because they were carrying factory loads. I could be wrong – man I hope not.

Quote:
Do anything you can to tilt the odds your way now. Wear white-flowing robes, perch a dove on your shoulder and convince the neighbors you're a peace-loving and reasonable man who wouldn't dream of hurting a living thing unless it was absolutely the last option. Visit nursing homes, coach Little League teams, volunteer as a candy striper at the hospital.
-somerled

Man that's a riot!
ice monkey is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 08:26 AM   #15
The Lovemaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 416
Wow, I thought you said be a stripper at the hospital!

I only carry factory loads for SD. My CCW instructor, a sheriff's deputy, echoes basically the reasons given in this thread. Why create problems when I can avoid them? I don't need the prosecutor making a case that I developed my reloads for the express purpose of killing someone in a nasty manner. It might make the difference between a justifiable shoot and a lot of legal expense.
The Lovemaster is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 08:56 AM   #16
Tim R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2004
Location: God's side of Washington State
Posts: 1,601
If it's a good shoot no body will care. It's not like the M.E. is going to pull a slug out of some DRT dirt bag, hold it up to the light and gasp.....it's a reload.

If it's a bad shoot, the only person who might even have a clue is the investigator and he knows Remington brass doesn't come with silver colored primers.

I have heard of part. box of bullets found in a guys house matched the bullet metallurgy of a bullet a person was killed with and was just one more nail in the coffin for a conviction.
__________________
God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.
Tim R is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 08:58 AM   #17
Mach II Sailor
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2007
Posts: 480
Quote:
I know the rule of thumb is to run at least 500 rounds of the ammo you want to carry for SD
i never heard of that rule, that is pure nonsense

this from 50+ years reloading experience !!
Mach II Sailor is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 08:59 AM   #18
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Alright once and for all, is it ok to reload self defense ammo?
No. It doesn't matter though because plenty of people will say otherwise even with cases having been put forward showing that while the ammo may be legal the use of it for defense cost the shooter dearly.

Why do you even ask this question? By your own words you indicate you have seen it argued back and forth. Do you think you are going to get anything different here or are you just looking to start another thread war?
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 09:02 AM   #19
DaveInPA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2008
Location: Berks County, PA
Posts: 1,106
Quote:
Do you think you are going to get anything different here or are you just looking to start another thread war?
Wow thanks for the unprovoked hostility. I'm just having a conversation, or so I thought . . .
DaveInPA is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 09:09 AM   #20
rwilson452
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2004
Location: Tioga co. PA
Posts: 2,647
This particular bit of lawyering has been now discredited and can no longer be used as evidents.

another one of those things the FBI lab used for a length of time but now it's gone. They could show a strong similarity but unfortunately is was just as similar to any other bullet in that lot of 10,000 or more. metallurgy in todays bullets is held to the closest tolerances possible. should you cast your own bullets this would work but commercial bullets it's not workable.

Quote:
I have heard of part. box of bullets found in a guys house matched the bullet metallurgy of a bullet a person was killed with and was just one more nail in the coffin for a conviction.
rwilson452 is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 09:23 AM   #21
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Wow thanks for the unprovoked hostility. I'm just having a conversation, or so I thought . .
Sorry but this comes up about every month with all the usual arguments for and against. Your saying "Once and for all" indicates that you already know this argument has gone on for a long time. I would suggest using some Search Fu skills for Reloads & Self Defense. Now if a new poster asks if there are any problems with using reloads for SD I might see a point.

How do you think it would be received if I started a thread entitled "Once and for all, is 45ACP really superior to 9mm?" or "Once and for all, should people OC?"
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 09:26 AM   #22
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
deleted
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 09:59 AM   #23
buzz_knox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,190
Quote:
This particular bit of lawyering has been now discredited and can no longer be used as evidents.
Could you explain how this has been discredited? One can discredit people or ideas, but arguments are very difficult to discredit. They may have no value in one case but they might in another. That's why judges will allow quite a few arguments that people normally wouldn't imagine would make it.

As for the OP, this subject will never be closed because the law is fluid. It can change from day to day, depending on facts, circumstances or whims of those involved. In a criminal or civil trial following a shooting, an investigating officer can be asked to provide details on the item of injury. If the attorney thinks that this information will inform (or bias) the jury, the questions will be asked. The questions will also be asked of you, since you have no right to remain silent in a civil trial, and you will have to testify in a criminal trial if you are asserting the affirmative defense of self-defense.

The issues with handloaded ammo are:

1. can you really make it more reliable than factories?

2. if using hollowpoints, do you fully understand the design so you understand the velocities required for the bullet to function properly? Are you chronographing regularly to insure you are matching those velocities?

3. are you saving all records of what components you used (including lot numbers) as well as saving rounds from each batch to serve as exemplars? Hopefully, if you did save actual rounds, you seal and certify the rounds to establish they were made long before you ever needed to use them as evidence. Factories retain this kind of information, because the ammunition they produce may end up in court, and they need to be able to explain its characteristics. If your ammunition leaves unusually low powder residue (in the eyes of a forensics examiner), your self-defense shooting might be interpreted as occurring further away than you indicated in your sworn report. They might believe you lied, and are deserving of further "attention."

4. Do you have a legitimate and rational reason for using handloads versus factory ammuntion, and can you articulate that reason?

Just so I don't seem to be one-sided, there is a way to counter most such issues. If you can demonstrate (through your testimony and based on your experience) that your ammunition is reliable, reasonably effective (in the case of hollowpoints, that may be semi-educated guess by showing that your round is moving within the designed working velocity of the design), accurate, and cheaper than factory, then your counterargument is that by using this ammuntion, you are able to practice more and become more accurate and experienced with your weapon. That experience ultimately helps make you safer with that weapon.

If you carry or have a weapon for self-defense, the "I did this because it makes me safer and more effective" is an argument that can made concerning weapon design, modifications, ammunition choice, training, or other matters. It also needs to be in the forefront of your mind before making these decisions. If you can't reasonably make the argument about a decision, reevaulate that decision.
buzz_knox is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:05 AM   #24
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,733
Thank you Buzz for giving the reasons I am to tired to bother doing.
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:32 AM   #25
45Marlin carbine
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2007
Location: South-Western North Carolina
Posts: 1,124
just my opine practice with the reloads you intend to carry in your SD pistol.
I do and when reloading I carefully check the cases in a loading block for powder before seating the slug.
I carry a Makarov that I load FMJ in a little hotter than published data which I shot some of, the ones I load have some edge on the factory Win and Fed.
when it comes right down to it you have to have a firearm that goes 'bang' every round or you ain't got a thing.
45Marlin carbine is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10347 seconds with 7 queries