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Old March 19, 2008, 07:54 PM   #1
totalloser
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Progressive rifle load in single pass (custom)

I just made a custom motor assembly to fit the Dillon trim die so that you can toss tumbled range brass straight into the hopper and roll out finished cartridges in a single pass on a Loadmaster 5 stage.

The problems with the Dillon trimmer are that the motor is so huge it can't clear the powder drop, vibrates screws loose, and is DEAFENING due to the vacuum cleaner. It also presents a problem for single pass due to vibration tipping primers. A fantastic tool, but has weaknesses.

Sooo, I machined adapters for a 24volt motor 1.5" in diameter and set up a momentary switch on the center hole so it winds up right as the case is sized. this allows the use of the smaller, intermittent duty motor, and prevents vibration from tipping the primer. (the motor starts after the primer is already inserting) I also modified a RCBS lube die to take the Lee decap system so I don't break pins all the time. (drill and tap to 1/8 npt)

Here is the setup: 1. Insert/lube/decap 2. Size/prime/trim 3. charge 4. seat 5. crimp

It works REALLY fast and well. The only hitch being that the longer cases bog down the motor so you have to back it out a tad and refeed it to trim them. Really quiet, too. Pretty handily rolls out 1000 in an hour START TO FINISH.

I would post a pic but am currently to cave man to figure it out. If anyone is interested in seeing this/ trying to build it, I would be happy to figure it out. I'd love to share, it really works well. It requires a lathe, and a drill press to make the adapters for the motor (1.5" aluminum round stock) And costs a little over $100 to build. (not including Dillon die)

PICS DOWN BELOW (I FINALLY figured it out... sort of.) THANKS A LOT FOR THE HELP JMORRIS!

Last edited by totalloser; March 22, 2008 at 02:08 AM.
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Old March 19, 2008, 08:54 PM   #2
rwilson452
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I got a couple of questions. How does the trimmer chamfer the case? How do you eliminate trimmer shavings from getting in the case?
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Old March 19, 2008, 09:27 PM   #3
totalloser
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It works just like the dillon does. The rotating cutter spins the shavings to the outside. On Dillon's they use a vacuum to suck them away. On mine, I put a shroud around it to keep them from flying around (they will jam stuff or they'll get your eye!) and periodically vac them out.

Because the cutter is super sharp carbide, cutting like a mill does, there is a small amount of shavings left on the case, but not enough to need to chamfer. The short answer is that with this type of system, a chamfer is simply not needed. Dillon's works the same way.
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Old March 19, 2008, 09:32 PM   #4
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I'd sure like to see some pics of your setup!

Andy
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Old March 19, 2008, 10:14 PM   #5
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Ok, will do. I honestly don't have a clue how to post a picture. Anyone feel like PM'ing me and giving me a lesson? I can buy a camera etc. I must admit I'm itching to show off! I'll swing by the computer store next time I'm in town. Since someone wants to see, I will figure it out.

Ok, I have some slick pics, but they are too big Glad I'm better at machining than I am at fooling with computers!

Last edited by totalloser; March 22, 2008 at 12:27 AM.
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Old March 22, 2008, 01:51 AM   #6
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Ok, I'll try again; The second image shows the shavings after about 800 rounds of .223, and you can see the Lee decapper on the RCBS die. The switch is a Radio shack special, seemed like it was designed for it. The motor is from www.surpluscenter.com The plug if from a cpu wiring harness chopped up, the cutter is a knocked down, drilled & set screwed boring bar, and the bolt on top takes out the slop and keeps the stress off the motor's bearings. It is line bored and has a single ball from a ball bearing to prevent friction. I accidentally got a 24 volt ac power supply, so I had to put in a rectifier, but you can buy a 24 dc supply from surplus center. Just make sure it puts out enough amps or you'll fry the power supply. (no cell phone chargers or the like) Thanks for the help JMORRIS!
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Old March 22, 2008, 12:56 PM   #7
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Your set up may be fine for bottleneck cartridges once every 3-5 loadings, but for straight wall cases???????????

Straight wall cases actually shrink a bit with each loading, so of what value is it on them? They are what people load most.
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Old March 22, 2008, 03:15 PM   #8
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The brass goes through this EVERY time. If it's too long it gets trimmed, if not it doesn't. I don't think Dillon even MAKES pistol dies for the trimmer thing. My Lee book says I don't need to trim pistol brass. At least not for 9mm, .357 sig, or .40

The point for this setup is for rifle brass which MUST be checked or trimmed. It eliminates those steps entirely. I only have to check with a gauge once and a while to make sure I'm still at SAMMI spec. In short, it's not for pistols.

By the way, if anyone is interested in building one, I could post directions and pictures of the parts. If you do volume, it's pretty fantastic.
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Old March 22, 2008, 04:16 PM   #9
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Nice looking set up.
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Old March 23, 2008, 05:39 PM   #10
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Hey NOT SO total loser,

I"d love to see how you did it. I think adaptations like that are great. Good job.

Regards,

Dave
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Old March 23, 2008, 06:21 PM   #11
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Looks good TL, good job.
Rusty

PS here you go.


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Old March 23, 2008, 11:35 PM   #12
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Thanks guys. I am going to make another one for .308, so I will take some pictures of the process. Basically it's just facing, boring and tapping each of the aluminum adapters, and the tricky part is laying out the bolt holes (3 hole on bottom 2 hole on top adapter) Oh, and lathe drilling the boring bar for the cutter, and the bolt on the top. The threads on the Dillon die are some oddball, I ordered the tap from MSC along with the aluminum rod. I really couldn't believe how well it works- after I worked out the kinks, anyhow. It's really a pleasure to use. I hope Dillon or someone copies it so we can just BUY one.

I'll tack it all onto this post in the next week or so. Including a bill of materials and sources.

PS, The FIRST one costs about $100 to make, the following ones only cost $25 because you have the tap, and enough aluminum stock to make about a total of 8 or 9. And you only need one power supply. This doesn't include the cost of the dillon dies (about $50 ea)

Last edited by totalloser; March 24, 2008 at 11:17 PM.
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Old April 10, 2008, 07:51 PM   #13
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Ok, the tap is a 13/16-20, and here's some pics of the hard part. Note I am spinning the tap by hand with a tailstock dead center to start it for accurate allignment. This is the only critical machining operation. The rest can be off a bit without any harm to functioning.

If you get one layed out well, you can use it as a jig as I am in the picture, to drill the bolt patterns on further pieces. It uses standard hardware store fasteners. I drilled 1/4" halfway through, and then 7/74" for the bolt shank to pass through. 1/8" will work if you are really slick at layout (I'm not) but makes little difference as the bolt head is what holds it on.

To get the bolt pattern, you kiss the center with a drill/countersink and use a compass to mark the bolt circle. With the same compass setting, you swing an arc from the edge, and keep swinging arcs from where the arcs intersect with the circle. You will have 6 points of intersection, punch 3 for your bolt pattern.

In the next couple days I will post the pics of the boring bar assembly and the rear slack adjuster, and a bill of materials. I need some goodies to finish this one. Sorry this took a bit longer.
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Old April 11, 2008, 11:51 AM   #14
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Now that's SLICK!

GOOD job.

Jeff
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Old April 11, 2008, 12:19 PM   #15
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Very cool! Wish I had access to a machine shop and the know-how to do this...
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Old April 11, 2008, 07:37 PM   #16
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Ok, here's the rest, I think. Now that I'm done with it, my buddy told me the layout trick; dab some liquid paper on the work to have a nice surface for the layout marks!

1. Aluminum 1.5" stock 1' (msc enco) $14
2. boring bar* I used enco #379-3110 at $43, but had to bore the die a tad, and # 379-2720 is a smaller diameter hole (7/16 vs 1/2") and only costs $13. Haven't used it, but I think it would be better. Bore and crossdrill/tap for set screw & grind off excess as in pic. Oh, and cut the shank off, first. You can see the shank above the motor in the first pic. The part you use will be about 1.5" long.
3. Tap* hard to find oddball; msc #04847851 "plug style" 13/16"-20 tpi I used a drill countersink followed by a 3/4" drill.
4. Harness* another hard to find part. cpu harness (chop the two prong plug out to use it) HSC electronics (707) 585-7344 There may be a better way, but this is the first thing I found. Part # ada-0000000478 $6
5. Motor Surplus Center 24 volt #10-1796 $10
6. Power supply; I used surplus center #15-1185 $6, but it's AC so I had to put a rectifier on it from Radio shack. If you can find a properly rated DC unit more power to you! Not a common voltage in DC. I am guessing at least 20 watts, but the book lists the amperage at no load, so it's just a guess.
7. Adapter mount screws; METRIC (sorry) Face mount; m3 .50 pitch (3) tail mount; m4 .70 pitch (metric 4, .70 mm thread width)
8. Momentary switch; Radio shack. No p/n, but they are easy to find.

www.use-enco.com www.mscdirect.com www.surpluscenter.com

You can see the ball bearing in the adjuster bolt, this is necessary. A dab of grease or a drop of oil holds it in, and prevents friction. The depth drilled in the rear adapter for the mount screws is kind of precise to keep from hitting little springs, but the screws can be ground down as needed. On my Loadmaster, all I had to do to mount the switch was to drill a hole (1/2"?) in the center of the turret, and put the lockwasher on the bottom of the turret (to make it turn on a little sooner)

Another little thing to note is the face mount needs a little bored off the threads for the face. Same on the rear. I used 1/2"-13 bolts on these, but anything will work. I used 12mm on the first one. I cut the aluminum stock a little over .8" long so once it's faced, it is close to that, but this need not be precise.

The really cool thing is that you can build these things so danged cheap, you can leave the motor on the turret, and never have to adjust it EVER.

PS, you could always buy a couple cheapo machine tools and monkey at it! That's basically what I did!

PPS, I think my next project will be modifying a drill/countersink into a boxer contour primer reamer so I can put berdan .308s into a case length gauge (unsized) in the lathe and convert them. Should take about 5 to 7 seconds per case. If it works reasonably well, I'll post that one up, too.
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Last edited by totalloser; April 13, 2008 at 10:20 PM. Reason: omitted info
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Old April 13, 2008, 12:40 AM   #17
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That's very cool. I've always thought the Dillon trimmer was a great idea but could not think my way around it's shortcommings. My idea was an extended drive shaft so the motor would clear the other dies. Yours is much better.
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Old April 13, 2008, 10:51 PM   #18
totalloser
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One way around it is to use a progressive with a removable turret, and process brass in one shot, and load it in a second pass. I used to do this, and it was pretty quick. Lube/decap and size in one pass, and everything else in a second pass. I was tumbling in between, but occasionally I would find a piece of walnut media in the primer hole with this process. The fix for that was to use a lee decap die in station 1. even though they were decapped.

Another benefit to this, is if you set your decap pin to just barely push out primers, when you find a military shell that NEEDS a decrimp (most don't) the primer is left in, and you can easily see it, and set it aside. My new setup, I have to beware when I find one, as it is found as the new primer pushes it back in, and I have to take everything apart to pull the shell and (usually) damaged primer.

However, doing it the old way, I would still be able to load 1000 in about 2 hours. Pretty quick, but this new setup is literally twice as fast. The real key to taking advantage of both of these setups is to use a press that can take a case feeder. Handling the cases is the biggest PITA in the process. I found that the big motor would vibrate all sorts of fasteners loose, though. Especially the turret lock bolt.

It still kinda surprises me that people tend to shoot more pistol ammo, I absolutely LOVE hosing off .223. Shooting rocks at 100 yds and watching them blow up is immensely satisfying. Big boom too! :P Well sorta big...
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Old April 14, 2008, 01:15 PM   #19
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Total –

Apply for a patent immediately.

Looks like you are on to something new and innovative for reloaders.
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Old September 30, 2008, 02:15 PM   #20
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Slip- Very flattered.

Got an update; This setup WILL NOT WORK for larger cases. Found a solution, though. Problems; 1. Motor doesn't carry enough torque to not bind up on thicker, larger cases. 2. The powder drop with double disc still cannot drop an adequate charge in .308. 3. Vibration tampers with the charges.

Forget the top assembly with the tappet adjustment. Put a delrin (acetal plastic) sleeve on the motor shaft between the boring bar and the motor. Use the boring bar to push against it taking all the slop out, and tighten it down. This slop will cause chatter. Use a little grease and make sure the friction surfaces are clean and polished. *PS washers seem to work fine for the sleeve. I suspect contact would be ok between the motor housing and the boring bar shank. Much easier to do. Seems to be throwing very consistent charges now with noted exception. Less than .1 grain deviation.*

On the top where the tappet adjuster goes, put a flyweight. 2" or 1.5" diameter and about 1" thick. It must be balanced on the motor. You can do this by touching it with a grease pencil while it's spinning. The grease will contact the wheel at the heavy point, so drill out some material to balance it. This fixes problem 1.

Problem 2; Drill out a disc to 9/16", and that will allow charges in excess of 50 grains. I am throwing 47.5 grains of win 748 with 9/16 over 1.46cc

Problem 3; When the motor spins with the disc under the powder hopper, it settles the powder in the disc, creating a heavy charge. This only is possible when a shell is not being charged. So the first charge in a series will ALWAYS be heavy and must be dumped. Any time the motor spins with no case being charged, the next charge must be dumped. These dumped cases can be snuck back in at the tail of a string at the powder measure. Chatter from slop in the shaft (delrin sleeve fixes this) and vibration from the motor/flywheel greatly exacerbates this problem. Balancing the wheel helps a lot, but it WILL drop a heavy first charge, so watch out! I'll post a pic in a minute.

Oh and I found that the screw that tightens the boring bar on the carbide insert rubs a little and needs to be touched with a grinder a little to not rub the die.

Two other things; Radio shack carries a 24vdc power supply that is adequate, and a better way to lay out the bottom adapter holes is to pop the motor apart and set it on your adapter. Then just punch the marks. Much easier. I am using a RC battery plug as a qd for different turrets.
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Last edited by totalloser; September 30, 2008 at 05:39 PM.
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Old October 1, 2008, 03:30 AM   #21
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I need one!! Please tell me you are going to build these things on the side and sell 'em to saps like myself at inflated prices. I reload .308 on a pro-1000, but this would speed things up greatly. My belt fed gun absolutely EATS ammo.

GAH! Nobody told me about lube dies! Bloody hell that would save a lot of time! I could do this with two passes on my old PRO-1000. Seriously, I need this.

Oh, also, try a triple disk rig on the lee measurer. I have two disks plus the adjustable widget. Works very well, and the "Fancy Spacer" I rigged up plus the longer screws cost less than $5. The nice guy that got me started ran a similar rig for 8mm, 303 and 30-06.

Last edited by Starvingboy; October 1, 2008 at 03:50 AM. Reason: New to reloading. Nobody told me about lube dies.
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Old October 1, 2008, 02:53 PM   #22
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Sorry, I barely have time to fool with it myself! My bad back finds me time off work now and then. (like now! ) I don't see why you couldn't use the Dillon setup if you are using a pro 1000, though and do it in two passes. You would need to get creative to use a setup like mine on a pro 1000 to mount the switch, and there'd be no spot for a crimp. But if you do it in two passes, you won't have powder charge issues. (that triple disc is a FANTASTIC idea, btw)

1. Decap 2. lube 3. size/trim (using Dillon's trimmer)
tumble
1.charge 2. seat 3. crimp

Plus that way you can factory crimp if you want. The lube die mod I did is REALLY worth considering, though. The lee decap setup is FAR superior, and the lube die is easily machinable. Or, if you do a two pass, just use a Lee decap die as you have open holes in the first pass.

The Dillon trimmer will clear most dies, just not the powder charge assembly. The trimmer costs $210, and the dies cost about $50 each.

PS www.patsreloading.com has some swinging deals to take the cost sting out of loading .308; wc846 for 95 bucks a 8 pound keg, and 147 fmjbt for $80 per thou resized 7.62x54 bullets. Not fantastically accurate, but SUPER cheap!

Last edited by totalloser; October 2, 2008 at 08:48 PM. Reason: OOPS! Thought it was a 4 hole machine! :(
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Old October 2, 2008, 03:11 PM   #23
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Pro-1000 only has three holes, but I know I can make it work. If I do it in two passes, I skip the Heavy Load issue you're running into. I don't see the need for a crimp die yet, but I've only been reloading for about 3 months now. I'm going to pick up a lube die as soon as the budget allows, but Knob Creek is next week so everything is on hold until after.

It just struck me that you have the perfect money making combination: You say it's easy for you to build, and the people on the thread saying how ingenious it is.

Myself, I lack machining skills at present, but would be interested if you wanted to do the machining and sell me some parts. What I really need to do is read over your thread in detail, but l'm now out of time
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Old October 2, 2008, 03:22 PM   #24
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totalloser:

VERY impressive.
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Old October 4, 2008, 03:41 PM   #25
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Ok, couple of questions: How much of the original trimmer did you end up using? It looks like the carbide cutter and holder, along with the trim die. All else seems to be your own.

Do I understand the functioning correctly? This just sits there and spins, mounted on the trim die, and the only thing that moves is the case popping up and getting trimmed?

If you were not on the other side of the US, I would offer you a case of beer to come over and see this in action. I think I NEED one.
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