GOAT TESTS!!!

pluspinc · January 26, 2000, 04:48 PM

A few years back the Stausbourgh Goat "tests" showed up in some gun rags. It was quickly debunked as pure BS and most gun rags ran from anymore mention of this nonsense. HOWEVER, the most famous article was by Ed Sanow and trying to figure out where he got it has been an experience. Some nit wits still cling to the idea they ever took place.
I have made it a study of mine to find out the source of this snake oil they tried to sell shooters. Emails to the various people with some knowledge went unanswered (like Mag-Safe who packs that article in thier shipments) and I even offered CASH to find out to no avail. WELL, I do believe I found the source at last but would like more input and this bunch seems brighter than the average shooters on the web. MUCH brighter.
Has anyone heard anything on this issue that may aid me in my search. Total confidence assured unless you want to post here. I recently contacted the largest goat owners association in the world, and they claim if such tests EVER took place they would have heard of it for various reasons, but they are looking into it. I'm a big fan of exposing gun rag myths whenever possible. If you have any input let me know. Just don't try to tell me they ever took place. That was settled long ago. Now time to find out WHO did it. Well?

John Overbey · January 26, 2000, 05:02 PM

At the risk of looking stupid...... HUHH??!! Please explain.... Goat Tests?
-John

Lavan · January 26, 2000, 06:20 PM

That kind of stuff really gets my goat.

Lavan · January 26, 2000, 06:26 PM

Oh........waiddaminnit! Maybe it is goat TESTES. Goats do have testes. But not all goats. Just Billy goats. Not all Billys have testes. Like Clinton.
Nanny goats don't have testes either. But they do have udders. But you didn't ask the udder question. You asked THIS question.
I am now fully confused.

Rob96 · January 26, 2000, 06:28 PM

The "Goat Tests" were supposedly conducted to test different manufacturers ammo in Terminal Performance ie; a live goat was shot and then timed to see how many seconds it took for "incapicatation". I have read that they actually took place and that they didn't take place.

denfoote · January 26, 2000, 06:37 PM

I can see why noboby wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole!!! If it were true,the "animal rights", and the anti-gun people would be all over it like stink on s@@t!!!!
The fact that they are not on it, even to this day, speaks to it's being "bunk".

Tango27 · January 26, 2000, 06:47 PM

You know, some people may laugh, but I live in fear of the day when a crazed goat comes after me. I've got special targets made with a goat printed on them so I have plenty of practice shooting at their specific "kill zone." They're a wiley bunch too--waiting up there in the mountains so they can come down and pounce on some unsuspecting villager...

Come on. The similarities between a goat and a crazed lunatic are to severe for such tests to have much practical value. Now if they were shooting gorillas on the other hand...

Tango

Come to think of it, it's been a while since I've gone to the zoo...

Erik · January 26, 2000, 06:54 PM

Killing goats with less than a .308 from extreme range has been proven tactically unsound, and should be avoided. :-)

I'm glad someone else makes a hobby of debunking the gun rag bunch... I read an article several years refuting the whole goat myth- I'll see if I can dig it up, though it probably ended up in the dumpster years ago.

Erik

Walt Welch · January 26, 2000, 07:44 PM

Check out the Firearms Tactical Institute site: http://www.firearmstactical.com/
for information on this subject.

Here is what Marvin Fackler has to say about the Strasbourg Tests on the FTI site:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "The 'Strasbourg Tests:' Another Gunwriter/Bullet Salesman Fraud?" Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 10-11; 1994.

Dr. Martin Fackler, IWBA president, reviews the authorless "Strasbourg Tests," a purported study of the reaction of several hundred live unanesthetized "human-sized" goats that were allegedly shot to test the "one-shot stopping power" of various handgun cartridges. Fackler explains the many incongruities, inconsistencies and absurdities which lead him (and most other wound ballistics experts) to conclude that the "Strasbourg Tests" are a hoax.

Fackler concludes: "The only people who believe the 'Strasbourg Tests' are real are the usual crowd of crackpot 'magic' bullet believers and the pathetically incompetent editors of consumer gun magazines like Guns & Ammo."[/quote]

I have never seen evidence to support that the tests actually occured. Walt

Schmit · January 26, 2000, 07:45 PM

Pluspinc.

Do I know for a fact if the Stausbourgtests took place... no. However, if they didn't than someone when to alot of trouble to produce to get the rumor started.

If they did take place I can understand why participants are being closed mouth about it. If you were say a Military Member/Govt LEO/Business CEO that did participate in the test would you want it to get out?

------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

Lavan · January 26, 2000, 07:54 PM

Perhaps they were not goats. Perhaps they were sheep clandestinely posing as goats. In which case it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot them as posing as a goat is a capital offense in the sheep laws.

Gino · January 26, 2000, 08:05 PM

pluspinc,
Good luck! I really, really hate all of the unsubstantiated garbage that is thrown at us.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · January 27, 2000, 12:44 AM

I hear they are being re-done in France using
big blocks of Chevre instead of ballistic
gelatin. That should make Fackler happy.

Anyway, Ayoob said they didn't happen.
Speir says they did.

But that's clever asking the goat association,
Darrell.

Sometimes at TX ranges that Dennis and I frequent, you have to stop shooting for the
goats that wander by. Hmmm?

fastforty · January 27, 2000, 04:11 AM

I recently (within the last two years) read something similar in a newsstand zine. Only it was cows. They had a whole list of all of the ammo, and trajectories. None of the cows died very fast, and after being shot numerous times over the course of a 1/2 hour or so, most were bludgeoned. I guess those tests were simulating REALLY BIG BG's wearing leather jackets?

Oh yeah, a billygoat without testes is a "wither". BBQ bait.

CrowShooter · January 27, 2000, 05:56 AM

I don't know about the goats and don't care. Sounds like a big waste of time, especially if Ayoob has anything to do with it. The cow thing, I think, is true, and dates back to the original testing of 230 hardball.

CS

nyeti · January 27, 2000, 06:14 AM

Ditto Fackler, the only bigger wannabe dork out there than Ayoob is Sanow. I think he has been standing in that cornfield (scientific lab) waaaay too long. More garbage to feed the gun rags.

plateshooter · January 27, 2000, 06:31 AM

I can tell you that the Military killed many goats in the 60s using GB nerve agent, and for testing the special frag ammo developed for use in VN. We were stopped from using live goats at that time and had to use movies (VCRs weren't used then :-) in our classes. We also went through many rabbits, and pigeons.

------------------
Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter

George Hill · January 27, 2000, 06:50 AM

Not the biggest Dorks are Chuck Taylor and Dr Ignatius Piazza...
Those guys... Dont get me started.

First off - Taylor... Unqualified - and teaches WRONG and Dangerous methods.

Front Sight's founder Dr Ignatius. Let me put it this way - Your little Girl wants to learn Ballet. You can take her to Michael Barishnicov (or how ever you spell his name - my wife knows him) the famous Russian Dancer - or you can take your little girl to a guy who took classes from the master for a couple weeks at most. You decide - both schools cost about the same. Where do you want to go?

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud

pluspinc · January 27, 2000, 07:14 AM

My goal is the constant disclosure of the BS in gun rags and I feel the internet and newsgroups like this are taking the wind out of their BS sales. It is interesting to note that the gun rag writer types do NOT appear on forums like this or even offer an email option in most cases. The web has helped share GOOD information and debunk the nonsense. The goat test thing is a black mark on the shooting community, the gun rag writers thougth we were totally stupid and always have as they hype crap and try to SELL us things for thier bennefit. Appreciate the input so far. I'm working on a project where I debunk others. My next one is "muscle memory reflex." What a hoax that one was and is. Stay tuned.

Schmit · January 27, 2000, 07:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is interesting to note that the gun rag writer types do NOT appear on forums like this or even offer an email option in most cases. [/quote]

Very broad general statement that there

I beg to differ. I personally know two gunzine writers that, not only DO appear on a couple forums but are also an Administator and a Moderator on one.

Also, if you define "Gun Rag Writer Type" as someone who has been published in a Firearms publication, then there are many more, who while not regularly published (monthly column or such) are Members of Forums.

------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

JimR · January 27, 2000, 08:53 AM

It's clear from the responses that many do not know what pluspinc is talking about wrt the Strasbourg Tests. Here is a link to some info on the tests: Strasbourg Tests Overview

Note that Towert admits that he is unsure about the authenticity of the tests, but then goes on to reference/use them extensively. Did I miss something there?

pluspinc, good luck in your quest. Please let us know what you find, even if it's "I can't find anything to prove or disprove."

JimR

pluspinc · January 27, 2000, 09:39 AM

The burden isn't on me to PROVE anything. It is on the presenter. Those rules don't change cuz it's about guns. Also there is NO proof of anykind. What you show as "proof" is a re-burbing of what was in the gun rags. If you buy that you should avoid those late night infomercials. Amazing what snake oil shooters will buy. This is a PRIME example. Maybe all of us on this board need to come up with our own "tests" to prove something. I have a Siberian Husky that seems indestructable. How about the "Husky Tests?" I'll volunteer "Pookie." We don't even have to do it, just write up something "that sounds good" and let the shooting community buy into it. Who needs proof of anything?
You sure won't find ANY with the goat tests.

------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

VictorLouis · January 27, 2000, 10:51 AM

While I do not always agree with Taylor/Ayoob/G-writers, I feel that personal attacks are out of line. It is up to us, the readers, to try and distill some benefit for ourselves out of other's methods of teaching.
I've received a largely positive benefit from Taylor and Ayoob specifically. They have been involved w/firearms training for over 25 years. It would be less that prudent to NOT heed some of their wisdom. Tempered, of course, with my earlier statement.
I would like to see more postings from plusp on these frauds as they are discovered. Personally, I believe the 'zines have just about worn out every subject they cover. That which appears "fresh", I can usually digest in 10 mins. while standing in front of the supermarket newsrack.

RikWriter · January 27, 2000, 11:02 AM

George, I can't really agree about Chuck Taylor. True, he does follow Ayoob in skimming the bottom of the pool to dredge up whatever support he can for his pet theories of defensive handguns techniques, but at least the man HAS "seen the Elephant." Ayoob never has. I would be a lot more comfortable taking advice from someone that has actually been in combat than from a lifelong reserve cop who has never even fired a shot in the line of duty.

kraMrD · January 27, 2000, 11:08 AM

When I was a dentist in the Navy 92-95, we were required to attend a Combat Casualty Care Course (C4) when assigned to an operational billet.

Part of this course, we would operate on live goats. They would anesthetize the goat and we would perform various surgical procedures. This is only part of the current curriculum of this course.

In years past, they used to literally shoot the poor goat and then the course students would have to try and "save" the goats life. In the end, the goat is put down as they still do...

M.

January 26, 2000, 04:48 PM	#1
pluspinc Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 1999 Location: Mpls, MN. US Posts: 497	A few years back the Stausbourgh Goat "tests" showed up in some gun rags. It was quickly debunked as pure BS and most gun rags ran from anymore mention of this nonsense. HOWEVER, the most famous article was by Ed Sanow and trying to figure out where he got it has been an experience. Some nit wits still cling to the idea they ever took place. I have made it a study of mine to find out the source of this snake oil they tried to sell shooters. Emails to the various people with some knowledge went unanswered (like Mag-Safe who packs that article in thier shipments) and I even offered CASH to find out to no avail. WELL, I do believe I found the source at last but would like more input and this bunch seems brighter than the average shooters on the web. MUCH brighter. Has anyone heard anything on this issue that may aid me in my search. Total confidence assured unless you want to post here. I recently contacted the largest goat owners association in the world, and they claim if such tests EVER took place they would have heard of it for various reasons, but they are looking into it. I'm a big fan of exposing gun rag myths whenever possible. If you have any input let me know. Just don't try to tell me they ever took place. That was settled long ago. Now time to find out WHO did it. Well?

January 26, 2000, 05:02 PM	#2
John Overbey Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2000 Posts: 151	At the risk of looking stupid...... HUHH??!! Please explain.... Goat Tests? -John

January 26, 2000, 06:20 PM	#3
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: Dianneaforney Posts: 1,978	That kind of stuff really gets my goat.

January 26, 2000, 06:26 PM	#4
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: Dianneaforney Posts: 1,978	Oh........waiddaminnit! Maybe it is goat TESTES. Goats do have testes. But not all goats. Just Billy goats. Not all Billys have testes. Like Clinton. Nanny goats don't have testes either. But they do have udders. But you didn't ask the udder question. You asked THIS question. I am now fully confused.

January 26, 2000, 06:28 PM	#5
Rob96 Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 1999 Location: Allentown,PA Posts: 1,654	The "Goat Tests" were supposedly conducted to test different manufacturers ammo in Terminal Performance ie; a live goat was shot and then timed to see how many seconds it took for "incapicatation". I have read that they actually took place and that they didn't take place.

January 26, 2000, 06:37 PM	#6
denfoote Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 1999 Location: Buckeye Arizona Posts: 5,328	I can see why noboby wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole!!! If it were true,the "animal rights", and the anti-gun people would be all over it like stink on s@@t!!!! The fact that they are not on it, even to this day, speaks to it's being "bunk".

January 26, 2000, 06:47 PM	#7
Tango27 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 116	You know, some people may laugh, but I live in fear of the day when a crazed goat comes after me. I've got special targets made with a goat printed on them so I have plenty of practice shooting at their specific "kill zone." They're a wiley bunch too--waiting up there in the mountains so they can come down and pounce on some unsuspecting villager... Come on. The similarities between a goat and a crazed lunatic are to severe for such tests to have much practical value. Now if they were shooting gorillas on the other hand... Tango Come to think of it, it's been a while since I've gone to the zoo...

January 26, 2000, 06:54 PM	#8
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,255	Killing goats with less than a .308 from extreme range has been proven tactically unsound, and should be avoided. :-) I'm glad someone else makes a hobby of debunking the gun rag bunch... I read an article several years refuting the whole goat myth- I'll see if I can dig it up, though it probably ended up in the dumpster years ago. Erik

January 26, 2000, 07:44 PM	#9
Walt Welch Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 1998 Location: Alamo, CA Posts: 425	Check out the Firearms Tactical Institute site: http://www.firearmstactical.com/ for information on this subject. Here is what Marvin Fackler has to say about the Strasbourg Tests on the FTI site: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "The 'Strasbourg Tests:' Another Gunwriter/Bullet Salesman Fraud?" Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 10-11; 1994. Dr. Martin Fackler, IWBA president, reviews the authorless "Strasbourg Tests," a purported study of the reaction of several hundred live unanesthetized "human-sized" goats that were allegedly shot to test the "one-shot stopping power" of various handgun cartridges. Fackler explains the many incongruities, inconsistencies and absurdities which lead him (and most other wound ballistics experts) to conclude that the "Strasbourg Tests" are a hoax. Fackler concludes: "The only people who believe the 'Strasbourg Tests' are real are the usual crowd of crackpot 'magic' bullet believers and the pathetically incompetent editors of consumer gun magazines like Guns & Ammo."[/quote] I have never seen evidence to support that the tests actually occured. Walt

January 26, 2000, 07:45 PM	#10
Schmit Staff Alumnus Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Masquito infested flatlands of Mid-FL Posts: 1,858	Pluspinc. Do I know for a fact if the Stausbourgtests took place... no. However, if they didn't than someone when to alot of trouble to produce to get the rumor started. If they did take place I can understand why participants are being closed mouth about it. If you were say a Military Member/Govt LEO/Business CEO that did participate in the test would you want it to get out? ------------------ Schmit GySgt, USMC(Ret) NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS "Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

January 26, 2000, 07:54 PM	#11
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: Dianneaforney Posts: 1,978	Perhaps they were not goats. Perhaps they were sheep clandestinely posing as goats. In which case it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot them as posing as a goat is a capital offense in the sheep laws.

January 26, 2000, 08:05 PM	#12
Gino Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: WPB, FL USA Posts: 909	pluspinc, Good luck! I really, really hate all of the unsubstantiated garbage that is thrown at us.

January 27, 2000, 12:44 AM	#13
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 5,967	I hear they are being re-done in France using big blocks of Chevre instead of ballistic gelatin. That should make Fackler happy. Anyway, Ayoob said they didn't happen. Speir says they did. But that's clever asking the goat association, Darrell. Sometimes at TX ranges that Dennis and I frequent, you have to stop shooting for the goats that wander by. Hmmm?

January 27, 2000, 04:11 AM	#14
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 959	I recently (within the last two years) read something similar in a newsstand zine. Only it was cows. They had a whole list of all of the ammo, and trajectories. None of the cows died very fast, and after being shot numerous times over the course of a 1/2 hour or so, most were bludgeoned. I guess those tests were simulating REALLY BIG BG's wearing leather jackets? Oh yeah, a billygoat without testes is a "wither". BBQ bait.

January 27, 2000, 05:56 AM	#15
CrowShooter Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Posts: 44	I don't know about the goats and don't care. Sounds like a big waste of time, especially if Ayoob has anything to do with it. The cow thing, I think, is true, and dates back to the original testing of 230 hardball. CS

January 27, 2000, 06:14 AM	#16
nyeti Member Join Date: December 30, 1999 Posts: 66	Ditto Fackler, the only bigger wannabe dork out there than Ayoob is Sanow. I think he has been standing in that cornfield (scientific lab) waaaay too long. More garbage to feed the gun rags.

January 27, 2000, 06:31 AM	#17
plateshooter Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 1999 Location: N.E. Ohio Posts: 396	I can tell you that the Military killed many goats in the 60s using GB nerve agent, and for testing the special frag ammo developed for use in VN. We were stopped from using live goats at that time and had to use movies (VCRs weren't used then :-) in our classes. We also went through many rabbits, and pigeons. ------------------ Good shootin to ya Plateshooter

January 27, 2000, 06:50 AM	#18
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: Lapoint, Utah Posts: 11,475	Not the biggest Dorks are Chuck Taylor and Dr Ignatius Piazza... Those guys... Dont get me started. First off - Taylor... Unqualified - and teaches WRONG and Dangerous methods. Front Sight's founder Dr Ignatius. Let me put it this way - Your little Girl wants to learn Ballet. You can take her to Michael Barishnicov (or how ever you spell his name - my wife knows him) the famous Russian Dancer - or you can take your little girl to a guy who took classes from the master for a couple weeks at most. You decide - both schools cost about the same. Where do you want to go? ------------------ "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud

January 27, 2000, 07:14 AM	#19
pluspinc Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 1999 Location: Mpls, MN. US Posts: 497	My goal is the constant disclosure of the BS in gun rags and I feel the internet and newsgroups like this are taking the wind out of their BS sales. It is interesting to note that the gun rag writer types do NOT appear on forums like this or even offer an email option in most cases. The web has helped share GOOD information and debunk the nonsense. The goat test thing is a black mark on the shooting community, the gun rag writers thougth we were totally stupid and always have as they hype crap and try to SELL us things for thier bennefit. Appreciate the input so far. I'm working on a project where I debunk others. My next one is "muscle memory reflex." What a hoax that one was and is. Stay tuned.

January 27, 2000, 07:37 AM	#20
Schmit Staff Alumnus Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Masquito infested flatlands of Mid-FL Posts: 1,858	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is interesting to note that the gun rag writer types do NOT appear on forums like this or even offer an email option in most cases. [/quote] Very broad general statement that there I beg to differ. I personally know two gunzine writers that, not only DO appear on a couple forums but are also an Administator and a Moderator on one. Also, if you define "Gun Rag Writer Type" as someone who has been published in a Firearms publication, then there are many more, who while not regularly published (monthly column or such) are Members of Forums. ------------------ Schmit GySgt, USMC(Ret) NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS "Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

January 27, 2000, 08:53 AM	#21
JimR Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 913	It's clear from the responses that many do not know what pluspinc is talking about wrt the Strasbourg Tests. Here is a link to some info on the tests: Strasbourg Tests Overview Note that Towert admits that he is unsure about the authenticity of the tests, but then goes on to reference/use them extensively. Did I miss something there? pluspinc, good luck in your quest. Please let us know what you find, even if it's "I can't find anything to prove or disprove." JimR

January 27, 2000, 09:39 AM	#22
pluspinc Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 1999 Location: Mpls, MN. US Posts: 497	The burden isn't on me to PROVE anything. It is on the presenter. Those rules don't change cuz it's about guns. Also there is NO proof of anykind. What you show as "proof" is a re-burbing of what was in the gun rags. If you buy that you should avoid those late night infomercials. Amazing what snake oil shooters will buy. This is a PRIME example. Maybe all of us on this board need to come up with our own "tests" to prove something. I have a Siberian Husky that seems indestructable. How about the "Husky Tests?" I'll volunteer "Pookie." We don't even have to do it, just write up something "that sounds good" and let the shooting community buy into it. Who needs proof of anything? You sure won't find ANY with the goat tests. ------------------ Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

January 27, 2000, 10:51 AM	#23
VictorLouis Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,287	While I do not always agree with Taylor/Ayoob/G-writers, I feel that personal attacks are out of line. It is up to us, the readers, to try and distill some benefit for ourselves out of other's methods of teaching. I've received a largely positive benefit from Taylor and Ayoob specifically. They have been involved w/firearms training for over 25 years. It would be less that prudent to NOT heed some of their wisdom. Tempered, of course, with my earlier statement. I would like to see more postings from plusp on these frauds as they are discovered. Personally, I believe the 'zines have just about worn out every subject they cover. That which appears "fresh", I can usually digest in 10 mins. while standing in front of the supermarket newsrack.

January 27, 2000, 11:02 AM	#24
RikWriter Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 1999 Posts: 2,106	George, I can't really agree about Chuck Taylor. True, he does follow Ayoob in skimming the bottom of the pool to dredge up whatever support he can for his pet theories of defensive handguns techniques, but at least the man HAS "seen the Elephant." Ayoob never has. I would be a lot more comfortable taking advice from someone that has actually been in combat than from a lifelong reserve cop who has never even fired a shot in the line of duty.

January 27, 2000, 11:08 AM	#25
kraMrD Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Posts: 53	When I was a dentist in the Navy 92-95, we were required to attend a Combat Casualty Care Course (C4) when assigned to an operational billet. Part of this course, we would operate on live goats. They would anesthetize the goat and we would perform various surgical procedures. This is only part of the current curriculum of this course. In years past, they used to literally shoot the poor goat and then the course students would have to try and "save" the goats life. In the end, the goat is put down as they still do... M.