"We're ATF. We can do anything we want to do!"

John/az2 · October 26, 2000, 05:40 PM

Follow-up report on this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/fo...threadid=29791

----

I spoke with my friend today (Mike), the dealer that was raided yesterday.

11:05AM he opened the door for business while talking on the phone with someone.

An ATF agent (unknown at this point as an ATF agent) entered and told him that there had been an accident in the parking lot involving a mustang. No one else in the strip owns a mustang, so he went out with this agent to see what happened.

There was a Mesa patrol car backed up at an odd angle against his mustang. There was no damage, and as soon as he said that there were two ATF agents that flanked him, one that came behind and the other 27 came out of the shop next door and from behind other cars in the lot. The Mesa cops left, their dirty work was done.

The search warrent was for the book-work.

The ATF agent said, "We're going to take all of your guns, and you'll probably not get all of them back, but you'll get some of them back. The one's that are logged in properly you'll get back, but if there is as much as one mistake in any line, you're not going to get it back."

Mike said, "You can't do that!"

The agent responded, "We're ATF. We can do anything we want to do!"

Another agent said, "Why don't you just give up your FFL?"
He's alright, but the ATF removed, without care, about $300,000.00 worth of guns from his shop.

He was left with the ones that he had on his person when they raided him.

They gave him a receipt for the guns that they took and claimed that there were guns that had no serial numbers, including 5 Berettas. Stupid idiots. They weren't Berettas, they were Browning High Powers and the serial numbers were under the grips.

They even took the video survalence tape that records activity inside the shop.

Now WHY would they need that? Especially if it was recording while they were doing their filthy work?

HE HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY VIOLATION! Yet, they removed anything of value that he could continue to live on.

He was not under arrest. They told him so. Yet, he was handcuffed, photographed, and fingerprinted, and taken downtown to an interrogation room for questioning.

Mike knew the law better than they did. Several times the agents could not agree on what the law said and how Mike was to comply.

Our tax money at work to keep our children safe...

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.cphv.COM & www.handguncontrol.NET are being sued by Handgun Control, Inc.!

See the "cease and desist" letter here: www.cphv.com/lawsuit.html

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 26, 2000).]

Dangus · October 26, 2000, 05:59 PM

He should sue them and we should start a legal fund, I don't have much but I'll send in the few quarters I do. This has to be fought ferociously every time it happens or we will be subject to this ourselves eventually.

------------------
The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me

Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.

Dangus · October 26, 2000, 06:17 PM

Also, what is the NRA, GOA, and JFPO going to do about this? Solidarity works for the damn commies, why can't we take some advantage of it?

------------------
The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me

Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.

Nevada Fitch · October 26, 2000, 06:24 PM

Ever since Janet Reno got in power the ATF has been a loose Cannon.Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Bogie · October 26, 2000, 06:31 PM

Just a guess here, but I'll bet that they sent some 17 or 20 year old kid in (I forget the law about age...) with a darn good fake ID, and had him buy something. Either that, or maybe some of his competition dropped a dime, see if they can narrow their playing field a little...

Tacky.

**Mike Irwin** · October 26, 2000, 08:38 PM

He needs to immediately get in touch with his elected officials in Washington, IF they are gun friendly.

This is the sort of crap that was happening all of the time under the Carter administration, and which Reagan and Bush just about brought to a stop.

It's a real pity that Reagan wasn't successful in his bid to kill BATF as an agency.

------------------
Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!

Herodotus · October 26, 2000, 08:39 PM

Well, gentlemen, the question remains: what are we going to do?
Remember that Gore wants to hire on 1,000 more of these thugs (black shirted literally).

**TheBluesMan** · October 26, 2000, 09:09 PM

Please have him get in touch with the Second Amendment Foundation. http://www.saf.org

They have a whole slew of lawyers and are good about getting involved with cases like this.

This is infuriating! These ATF b@$t@rd$ don't deserve any respect. They are a disgrace to law enforcement officers everywhere.

------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website

[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited October 26, 2000).]

Travis McGee · October 26, 2000, 11:16 PM

"After we took the oath to defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, we were marched to rifle ranges and tought how to do it". For some reason when I hear about the BATFags at work, I think aboout "domestic enemies".

brianidaho · October 26, 2000, 11:36 PM

can anyone say unintended consequences.....

Jay Baker · October 27, 2000, 12:09 AM

They're nothing more than a combination of Gestapo and KGB.

There are plenty of these thugs who love to murder American citizens, and will enjoy every man, woman and child they gun down.

J.B.

OldGLOCKfan · October 27, 2000, 03:22 AM

Please, Please, Please. Tell the NRA about this. They HAVE to respond to this shtuff.

Ol' GLOCKY
P.S. I hope nobody minds, I just sent the addy for this topic to Ted Nugent's Website e-mail.....
------------------
"I have not yet begun to
fight!"-John Paul Jones

[This message has been edited by OldGLOCKfan (edited October 27, 2000).]

Mark King · October 27, 2000, 07:54 AM

If the warrant was for book work, they had no right to take even a single firearm. They are only allowed to take what is specified in the warrant. Yes, have him contact the NRA, the SAF and his elected officials. Looks as if the JBT moniker fits nicely in this case. Mark / FL

[This message has been edited by Mark King (edited October 27, 2000).]

alan · October 27, 2000, 08:18 AM

Between the gestapo-like tendencies of "top management", quite possibly this has seeped down to lower levels too, the demonstrated attitude and antics of the sitting administration, and what, to use a polite phrase could be described as "the benign neglect of The Congress", re the quite "questionable" antics of BATF, is anyone really surprised?

Have any of you read James Bovard's "feeling your pain", which is historical fact, not a work of fiction, as is the case with Unintended Consequences?

John/az2 · October 27, 2000, 09:11 AM

I have forwarded his information to SAF, and he said he was going to call the NRA today. I'll also be calling our reps to see if they can do anything... We'll see...

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.cphv.COM & www.handguncontrol.NET are being sued by Handgun Control, Inc.!

See the "cease and desist" letter here: www.cphv.com/lawsuit.html

ChrisR246 · October 27, 2000, 09:21 AM

Is it possible to get some specifics (store name/address)? I would like to write my Rep and Senators about these tactics. Since BATF is a Fed agency, any Congress person should be interested.

hnkg3 · October 27, 2000, 10:07 AM

It is my bet that the NRA will not do anything. They are, after all, in bed with this gov't AND the ATFags. Project Exile, gentlemen!

------------------
The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of Patriots and tyrants alike...TJ.

TAZ · October 27, 2000, 10:52 AM

I seriously doubt the NRA would do anything seeing that its elections time and they have "better" things to do. Contacting them would be a good idea anyway just to get more ears and eyes opened.

On a more serious note, what can be done about these JBT's. Obviously the Unintended Consequences stuff wont likely happen, but how else can we bring light to these cockroaches. Are the employemnt records of government agencies public record?? As in can we get them and post names and addresses on the internet? Or should we in each of these cases file charges/bring suit against not only the agency, but also the individual agents carrying out the "raids". This way their names and addresses would become public information and could legally be posted all over the world. I dont know how much it costs to sue somebody and then change your mind if you dont want to/cant afford a layer to carry it to fruition, but it would be worth it to have the identities of these people spread around the country so they could not hide in the dark. In this instance youd have 27 agents' identities published, plus name the local LEOs who conspired.

------------------
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein

RickD · October 27, 2000, 01:56 PM

Well, John. They have served us with yet another fight to fight. Another rallying point. Another chance to say to the fence-sitters that, indeed, "freedom good...government bad."

And, of course, something for you to devise a plan of action for during the next Phoenix TUG meeting in November (15th, as I recall).

In the meantime we all need to publicize this on all the forums. www.glocktalk.com , www.ar15.com , 50bmg@egroups.com , azrkba@asu.edu , anti-antigunlobby@egroups.com , etc.

Give them the contact info for your FFL-buddy and encourage them to send him money for his defense fund. Your friend must feel that he is not alone in this just as the BATF must know that we are taking notice. They hope that he won't have the means to fight them. We must assure him that he will have the means to fight them.

You may have to set up a www.paypal.com account to solicit donations for his defense.
Do some raffles if this thing takes a while.

Have your FFL-buddy contact a lawyer, fast. May I suggest Marc Victor 480-755-7910. He is a pit-bull lawyer from Tempe, Az who took over the Bob Stewart www.maadigriffin.com case after the federal public defender hosed things up.

Lastly, for those of you who support Project Exile, this is exactly the kind of crap that will happen. Do NOT empower them with your approval now, or later. Project Exile is better named, Project Gulag.

Rick
We hang together or we hang separately.

MikeK · October 27, 2000, 03:49 PM

John;

Replying from the closed post on this topic - my e-mail used to show up, hopefully I've fixed that. I do think the lawyer I know at the NRA will do something to help, however I obviously can't respond for him or the NRA.

RickD · October 27, 2000, 03:57 PM

Contact the Gun Owners Foundation (GOF) through www.goa.org .

Rick

gitarmac · October 27, 2000, 06:54 PM

Maybe one of the shooting magazines would do an article on it.

RickD · October 27, 2000, 06:58 PM

Which simply begs the question why they don't have one article on the KGBATF every month.

Why aren't they doing it now?

Rick

beemerb · October 27, 2000, 07:52 PM

I just sent this page to SOF magazine in the hopes that they will give it the publicity that it should have.
If we can get a raffle or something set up please count me in.

------------------
Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

brianidaho · October 28, 2000, 12:07 AM

John, can you post the name of the gunshop here, and would the owner be willing to post his name and a statement on this board? I've got some pretty Pro-gun senators and reps in this state that are noted for taking on the DC powergrabbers (EPA in particular). I'd like the opportunity to forward particulars to them.

If the shop owner doesn't want his name here, want to e-mail me?

Bri

October 26, 2000, 05:40 PM	#1
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,754	Follow-up report on this thread: http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/fo...threadid=29791 ---- I spoke with my friend today (Mike), the dealer that was raided yesterday. 11:05AM he opened the door for business while talking on the phone with someone. An ATF agent (unknown at this point as an ATF agent) entered and told him that there had been an accident in the parking lot involving a mustang. No one else in the strip owns a mustang, so he went out with this agent to see what happened. There was a Mesa patrol car backed up at an odd angle against his mustang. There was no damage, and as soon as he said that there were two ATF agents that flanked him, one that came behind and the other 27 came out of the shop next door and from behind other cars in the lot. The Mesa cops left, their dirty work was done. The search warrent was for the book-work. The ATF agent said, "We're going to take all of your guns, and you'll probably not get all of them back, but you'll get some of them back. The one's that are logged in properly you'll get back, but if there is as much as one mistake in any line, you're not going to get it back." Mike said, "You can't do that!" The agent responded, "We're ATF. We can do anything we want to do!" Another agent said, "Why don't you just give up your FFL?" He's alright, but the ATF removed, without care, about $300,000.00 worth of guns from his shop. He was left with the ones that he had on his person when they raided him. They gave him a receipt for the guns that they took and claimed that there were guns that had no serial numbers, including 5 Berettas. Stupid idiots. They weren't Berettas, they were Browning High Powers and the serial numbers were under the grips. They even took the video survalence tape that records activity inside the shop. Now WHY would they need that? Especially if it was recording while they were doing their filthy work? HE HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY VIOLATION! Yet, they removed anything of value that he could continue to live on. He was not under arrest. They told him so. Yet, he was handcuffed, photographed, and fingerprinted, and taken downtown to an interrogation room for questioning. Mike knew the law better than they did. Several times the agents could not agree on what the law said and how Mike was to comply. Our tax money at work to keep our children safe... ------------------ John/az "When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA! www.cphv.COM & www.handguncontrol.NET are being sued by Handgun Control, Inc.! See the "cease and desist" letter here: www.cphv.com/lawsuit.html [This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 26, 2000).]

October 26, 2000, 05:59 PM	#2
Dangus Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2000 Location: IA Posts: 1,921	He should sue them and we should start a legal fund, I don't have much but I'll send in the few quarters I do. This has to be fought ferociously every time it happens or we will be subject to this ourselves eventually. ------------------ The Alcove I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.

October 26, 2000, 06:17 PM	#3
Dangus Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2000 Location: IA Posts: 1,921	Also, what is the NRA, GOA, and JFPO going to do about this? Solidarity works for the damn commies, why can't we take some advantage of it? ------------------ The Alcove I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.

October 26, 2000, 06:24 PM	#4
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	Ever since Janet Reno got in power the ATF has been a loose Cannon.Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge.

October 26, 2000, 06:31 PM	#5
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: St. Louis, Misery Posts: 3,763	Just a guess here, but I'll bet that they sent some 17 or 20 year old kid in (I forget the law about age...) with a darn good fake ID, and had him buy something. Either that, or maybe some of his competition dropped a dime, see if they can narrow their playing field a little... Tacky.

October 26, 2000, 08:38 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 21,781	He needs to immediately get in touch with his elected officials in Washington, IF they are gun friendly. This is the sort of crap that was happening all of the time under the Carter administration, and which Reagan and Bush just about brought to a stop. It's a real pity that Reagan wasn't successful in his bid to kill BATF as an agency. ------------------ Smith & Wesson is dead to me. If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!

October 26, 2000, 08:39 PM	#7
Herodotus Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Posts: 744	Well, gentlemen, the question remains: what are we going to do? Remember that Gore wants to hire on 1,000 more of these thugs (black shirted literally).

October 26, 2000, 09:09 PM	#8
TheBluesMan Staff Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,566	Please have him get in touch with the Second Amendment Foundation. http://www.saf.org They have a whole slew of lawyers and are good about getting involved with cases like this. This is infuriating! These ATF b@$t@rd$ don't deserve any respect. They are a disgrace to law enforcement officers everywhere. ------------------ RKBA! "The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security" Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio. Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website [This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited October 26, 2000).]

October 26, 2000, 11:16 PM	#9
Travis McGee Member Join Date: July 28, 2000 Location: San Diego CA, USA Posts: 85	"After we took the oath to defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, we were marched to rifle ranges and tought how to do it". For some reason when I hear about the BATFags at work, I think aboout "domestic enemies".

October 26, 2000, 11:36 PM	#10
brianidaho Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2000 Location: Coeur d'Alene, ID Posts: 442	can anyone say unintended consequences.....

October 27, 2000, 12:09 AM	#11
Jay Baker Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Location: S.W. Idaho Posts: 1,298	They're nothing more than a combination of Gestapo and KGB. There are plenty of these thugs who love to murder American citizens, and will enjoy every man, woman and child they gun down. J.B.

October 27, 2000, 03:22 AM	#12
OldGLOCKfan Junior Member Join Date: October 26, 2000 Posts: 2	Please, Please, Please. Tell the NRA about this. They HAVE to respond to this shtuff. Ol' GLOCKY P.S. I hope nobody minds, I just sent the addy for this topic to Ted Nugent's Website e-mail..... ------------------ "I have not yet begun to fight!"-John Paul Jones [This message has been edited by OldGLOCKfan (edited October 27, 2000).]

October 27, 2000, 07:54 AM	#13
Mark King Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Location: FLA USA Posts: 362	If the warrant was for book work, they had no right to take even a single firearm. They are only allowed to take what is specified in the warrant. Yes, have him contact the NRA, the SAF and his elected officials. Looks as if the JBT moniker fits nicely in this case. Mark / FL [This message has been edited by Mark King (edited October 27, 2000).]

October 27, 2000, 08:18 AM	#14
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,284	Between the gestapo-like tendencies of "top management", quite possibly this has seeped down to lower levels too, the demonstrated attitude and antics of the sitting administration, and what, to use a polite phrase could be described as "the benign neglect of The Congress", re the quite "questionable" antics of BATF, is anyone really surprised? Have any of you read James Bovard's "feeling your pain", which is historical fact, not a work of fiction, as is the case with Unintended Consequences?

October 27, 2000, 09:11 AM	#15
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,754	I have forwarded his information to SAF, and he said he was going to call the NRA today. I'll also be calling our reps to see if they can do anything... We'll see... ------------------ John/az "When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA! www.cphv.COM & www.handguncontrol.NET are being sued by Handgun Control, Inc.! See the "cease and desist" letter here: www.cphv.com/lawsuit.html

October 27, 2000, 09:21 AM	#16
ChrisR246 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2000 Location: Schnecksville, PA Posts: 188	Is it possible to get some specifics (store name/address)? I would like to write my Rep and Senators about these tactics. Since BATF is a Fed agency, any Congress person should be interested.

October 27, 2000, 10:07 AM	#17
hnkg3 Junior Member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: MTN. HOME Idaho (Non-Domestic) Posts: 10	It is my bet that the NRA will not do anything. They are, after all, in bed with this gov't AND the ATFags. Project Exile, gentlemen! ------------------ The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of Patriots and tyrants alike...TJ.

October 27, 2000, 10:52 AM	#18
TAZ Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Posts: 514	I seriously doubt the NRA would do anything seeing that its elections time and they have "better" things to do. Contacting them would be a good idea anyway just to get more ears and eyes opened. On a more serious note, what can be done about these JBT's. Obviously the Unintended Consequences stuff wont likely happen, but how else can we bring light to these cockroaches. Are the employemnt records of government agencies public record?? As in can we get them and post names and addresses on the internet? Or should we in each of these cases file charges/bring suit against not only the agency, but also the individual agents carrying out the "raids". This way their names and addresses would become public information and could legally be posted all over the world. I dont know how much it costs to sue somebody and then change your mind if you dont want to/cant afford a layer to carry it to fruition, but it would be worth it to have the identities of these people spread around the country so they could not hide in the dark. In this instance youd have 27 agents' identities published, plus name the local LEOs who conspired. ------------------ "Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes." -R.A. Heinlein

October 27, 2000, 01:56 PM	#19
RickD Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,923	Well, John. They have served us with yet another fight to fight. Another rallying point. Another chance to say to the fence-sitters that, indeed, "freedom good...government bad." And, of course, something for you to devise a plan of action for during the next Phoenix TUG meeting in November (15th, as I recall). In the meantime we all need to publicize this on all the forums. www.glocktalk.com , www.ar15.com , 50bmg@egroups.com , azrkba@asu.edu , anti-antigunlobby@egroups.com , etc. Give them the contact info for your FFL-buddy and encourage them to send him money for his defense fund. Your friend must feel that he is not alone in this just as the BATF must know that we are taking notice. They hope that he won't have the means to fight them. We must assure him that he will have the means to fight them. You may have to set up a www.paypal.com account to solicit donations for his defense. Do some raffles if this thing takes a while. Have your FFL-buddy contact a lawyer, fast. May I suggest Marc Victor 480-755-7910. He is a pit-bull lawyer from Tempe, Az who took over the Bob Stewart www.maadigriffin.com case after the federal public defender hosed things up. Lastly, for those of you who support Project Exile, this is exactly the kind of crap that will happen. Do NOT empower them with your approval now, or later. Project Exile is better named, Project Gulag. Rick We hang together or we hang separately.

October 27, 2000, 03:49 PM	#20
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 567	John; Replying from the closed post on this topic - my e-mail used to show up, hopefully I've fixed that. I do think the lawyer I know at the NRA will do something to help, however I obviously can't respond for him or the NRA.

October 27, 2000, 03:57 PM	#21
RickD Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,923	Contact the Gun Owners Foundation (GOF) through www.goa.org . Rick

October 27, 2000, 06:54 PM	#22
gitarmac Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Posts: 349	Maybe one of the shooting magazines would do an article on it.

October 27, 2000, 06:58 PM	#23
RickD Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,923	Which simply begs the question why they don't have one article on the KGBATF every month. Why aren't they doing it now? Rick

October 27, 2000, 07:52 PM	#24
beemerb Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,763	I just sent this page to SOF magazine in the hopes that they will give it the publicity that it should have. If we can get a raffle or something set up please count me in. ------------------ Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed. I'm old and deceitful.

October 28, 2000, 12:07 AM	#25
brianidaho Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2000 Location: Coeur d'Alene, ID Posts: 442	John, can you post the name of the gunshop here, and would the owner be willing to post his name and a statement on this board? I've got some pretty Pro-gun senators and reps in this state that are noted for taking on the DC powergrabbers (EPA in particular). I'd like the opportunity to forward particulars to them. If the shop owner doesn't want his name here, want to e-mail me? Bri