The PT145 just felt TOO GOOD! - Page 2

King Ghidora · July 23, 2008, 02:15 PM

So the reports I cited of people shooting thousands of rounds through their PT 145 should be discounted? There can be bad examples of any gun. Even the mighty Glock, which some people seem to worship, has had some serious problems in the past.

BTW the manual states clearly that +P ammo is not a good idea in the PT 145. It says it reduces the life of the gun.

And I'll grant you that the barrel stopping against the take down pin isn't the best idea in the world but let's not forget that by far most of the recoil of an automatic is absorbed by the slide. And the idea that the slide being stopped by the "front of the alloy frame" is a worse idea than being stopped by plastic is beyond me. If that were true wouldn't all steel guns have a piece of plastic to absorb the inertia of the slide. My Sig's slide gets stopped by an alloy frame too. Does that mean it isn't a good weapon?

And your comment that others will shoot "even less" than the 1000 rounds plus I average with my Sig is a bit puzzling too. For starters I said I shot more than 1000 rounds per year. In fact I might shoot close to 2000 rounds a year. I doubt the percentage of people is large who shoot that many rounds ever through their guns. Many people never shoot their guns at all in fact.

Which brings me back to the whole point of carrying a gun like the Taurus PT 145. I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a Sig but I do expect it to have a very long life. When I bought mine I posted on this board that it will be a good idea to have a backup gun in case I ever do need to send it in for repairs. But I was thinking years down the road. If I thought it would have problems early I wouldn't have bought it. I did hear that Taurus was slow about returning guns. But I knew I had a backup that wasn't likely to quit. BTW I kept a backup (a Tokarev 7.62 X 25) for my Sig for years before I let it go because I came to believe the Sig was unlikely to break down. I actually did still keep a backup for it but it wasn't much of one (my trusty Raven P-25).

But people do have breakdowns with any gun. The new Sigs are known to have issues as well. Glocks had their infamous Kb problems and also their Phase 3 problems.

What you seem to be overlooking is that Taurus will repair their guns forever. How can it be impossible to fire 40-50k rounds through a gun that gets repaired for free whenever it breaks down?

I would strongly suggest that anyone that shoots as much as I do keep a second gun for protection. For the average shooter who practices just enough to be able to shoot well when they need to the Taurus is going to be a fine gun. Having a backup is still a good idea but people have to start somewhere and younger people and people without a lot of money could easily get by with the Taurus PT 145. It isn't a match grade pistol that would be expected to fire thousands of rounds a year. It's a CCW pistol that should be capable of shooting a few thousand rounds to get proficient then still be reliable when the time comes God forbid.

I wouldn't mistake my Taurus for a gun like my Sig. But I would accept the fact that it will be repaired for free when needed which is an amazingly good thing. It was said here that guns shipped to Taurus must be shipped overnight. My manual doesn't say that. It just says to ship it to Taurus. It won't cost anywhere near $60 to do that.

Also should the take down pin fail because the barrel pivots and stops on it my guess is it would be cheap to just order a new part instead of sending the gun off for repairs. In the unlikely event that the alloy frame fails due to the fact the slide stops against it then yes you would likely need to ship the gun to Taurus. Maybe their turnaround time is long but trust me that is nothing unusual for corporations. I've had stuff take a year and a half to get back to me when I shipped it off for warranty work. Yes other companies might be better. Other companies might be worse too. Until I see data on this issue I won't just accept the rumor mill version of events. Again it's always the complainers who post. That's a natural thing of course because happy people don't have any reason to complain or to try to warn others or to try to get even by depressing sales.

You can choose to believe that a Taurus isn't the same quality as a Sig or an HK or a S&W if you choose. I doubt they are that quality either. But my Sig has no forever warranty on it. My Taurus does. If my Taurus breaks down I'll have my Sig to use while I wait for the Taurus to come back.

But while it still works well (and it works VERY well) I will continue to enjoy it secure in the knowledge that it does have a forever warranty. Not just a lifetime warranty you understand. It has a forever warranty. I'm quite sure I can shoot 40k rounds through a gun that gets repaired an infinite number of times. It might be my great grandkids that shoot that round number 40k but it can be done. BTW I'm not so sure my Sig will ever make it that far.

Sturmgewehre · July 23, 2008, 02:42 PM

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It was said here that guns shipped to Taurus must be shipped overnight. My manual doesn't say that. It just says to ship it to Taurus. It won't cost anywhere near $60 to do that.

Your manual? You haven't shipped too many handguns, have you?

It's against the law to use the USPS to ship a handgun. That leaves FedEx and UPS.

Why don't you call up UPS or FedEx and ask them how much it costs to ship a handgun. It's their policies that state you have to ship next day air for "security" purposes, it has nothing to do with Taurus.

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May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

From the FedEx webiste: http://fedex.com/us/services/terms/us.html#firearms

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# Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.

From the UPS website: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res.../firearms.html

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Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).

boykinhntr · July 23, 2008, 02:43 PM

One thing i have learned, is to take the advice of local professionals that I know and trust and combine that with my own experiences. Having done so, the PT145 is THE weapon I chose for self defense. Some Tauruses have had problems but that doesn't mean the PTs have. Kimber has had more than its fair share of problems as well. Every time i am at the range, there is some issue with somebody's gun. I have seen problems with all manufacturers.

The turnaround time from the Taurus factory is a non issue with me. They actually have stepped up like few companies and said "we will fix your gun for the life of the piece". Obviously, they are going to have a lot more warranty work than a company that has a 1 or 2 year warranty. I see it as a compromise. Buy a gun with a 1 year warranty but get quick service or buy a gun that will be repaired for the life of the weapon but wait a few months. I think i will wait.

ImDisaster · July 23, 2008, 04:02 PM

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So the reports I cited of people shooting thousands of rounds through their PT 145 should be discounted?...

Not sure if that one is directed at me but I'll answer it. I agree that most people won't have any big issues. Part of this is because most people won't shoot a huge amount of rounds through it.

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BTW the manual states clearly that +P ammo is not a good idea in the PT 145. It says it reduces the life of the gun.

I've seen the "reduce the life of the gun" comment with other brands....but it is more of an issue with the Taurus than it is with a Sig or S&W M&P, with their beefy locking blocks.

This isn't a big deal. Just something to be aware of and also something that indicates the robustness of the gun...to regular rounds too.

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.....And the idea that the slide being stopped by the "front of the alloy frame" is a worse idea than being stopped by plastic is beyond me. If that were true wouldn't all steel guns have a piece of plastic to absorb the inertia of the slide. My Sig's slide gets stopped by an alloy frame too. Does that mean it isn't a good weapon?

That depends on the material strength and force of the impact. Do you see peening marks and metal shavings on the front of your Sig frame? The plastic makes a great cushion (it is backed by the metal inner frame by the way.) I'm not sure how many manufacturers use the plastic of a polymer framed gun to cushion the slide impact.

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And your comment that others will shoot "even less" than the 1000 rounds plus I average with my Sig is a bit puzzling too.....I doubt the percentage of people is large who shoot that many rounds ever through their guns. Many people never shoot their guns at all in fact.

My point exactly, and why the Taurus might be a great gun for that type of person. In fact, might be great for most people because most people don't shoot as much as you and wayyyyy less than me.

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Which brings me back to the whole point of carrying a gun like the Taurus PT 145. I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a Sig but I do expect it to have a very long life.

You might have missed that I agree with you there. Taurus sells because it fits a niche in the market. Not everyone needs a gun that can digest 60,000 rounds without a hiccup.

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What you seem to be overlooking is that Taurus will repair their guns forever. How can it be impossible to fire 40-50k rounds through a gun that gets repaired for free whenever it breaks down?

This is the classic marketing technique of companies that have a bad quality reputation. Chrysler offered 100K powertrain warranties when they had a bunch of transmission failures. It is merely a stop gap sales measure. Having said that, I don't think Taurus's are crap. Many are very decent guns if not shot too much. I feel that way about my PT111.

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I would strongly suggest that anyone that shoots as much as I do keep a second gun for protection. For the average shooter who practices just enough to be able to shoot well when they need to the Taurus is going to be a fine gun.

Once again I agree.

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It isn't a match grade pistol that would be expected to fire thousands of rounds a year. It's a CCW pistol that should be capable of shooting a few thousand rounds to get proficient then still be reliable when the time comes God forbid.

Agreed again, though I will say my PT111 is a darn accurate little shooter.

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You can choose to believe that a Taurus isn't the same quality as a Sig or an HK or a S&W if you choose. I doubt they are that quality either.

Agreed. Without a doubt. But like we both say....not everyone needs that kind of quality.

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...40k rounds through a gun.....BTW I'm not so sure my Sig will ever make it that far.

I have little doubt a 226 is capable of 40K rounds. By then you might need a recoil spring replacement, but she will most likely handle it with no problem. The real question is will you, or your relatives ever put $8000 dollars worth of ammo through her.

Ace_Breaker · July 23, 2008, 04:20 PM

This was discussed at length on other Taurus posts, but gotta jump in on this one. I've been involved in the LE community for around 30 years. I have yet to find one LE using a Taurus as a primary or secondary weapon. There may be some out there somewhere, but I know of none. I've been a trainer for 15 years and trained many laterals from all over the country. I have yet to see any lateral carrying the bull. Most large LE agencies with firearms and ammunition boards won't allow Taurus to be carried as a primary weapon. Almost all LE, armorers, tactical equipment/gun shops, shooting experts, laugh when Taurus is brought up as a carry option. There have been a few good models, but I'm talking about the big picture. So don't go off saying you have a Taurus that worked great in your 50 rounds of experience! Better yet, Taurus is great because you have one of them that works! All guns can and do break. Again, let's look at the big picture. There are no actual statistics for weapons breakages that I know of. It is forums like this that share this type of information and experience. Many Taurus lovers argue for their weapons, but refuse to listen to the wealth of information here, deaf to valid facts and real life stories. Wake up!

Secondly, resale value on them is garbage. Expect to take a bath when you decide to let the bull go. I think people buy Taurus because they are cheap coupled with lack of knowledge and information about quality firearms. After having all 3 of my Tauri' break on me, I'd be a complete idiot to trust them to save my life or another. It just isn't going to happen. Why waste my time fiddle farting around with garbage when I've never had a malfunction or problem with several other name brand weapons. A Taurus is not at the level of Glock, Sig, Hk, Ruger, and so on, period!
Doing more research on the boards you will find some Taurus supporters that went on to have breakages and problems after they so adamantly defended the company. If you buy one and it breaks it is your fault. The information is here and you read it. For the same amount of money a decent used Glock, CZ, Sig, etc. can be aquired. Buying a quality firearm other than Taurus is my recommendation. Now I'm going swimming to cool off.

King Ghidora · July 23, 2008, 04:50 PM

You know Ace I've seen so many reputation arguments that were nothing but hype I couldn't begin to count them all. Start with that Chrysler argument. Their vans are still top notch and they put the same 100k mile warranty on them so apparently they used the warranty for other purposes. Then let's talk about how people feel about Toyotas. I've owned about 20 of them since the early 70's. In the 70's and early 80's they were great. Since then they have become mostly crap. Yet Consumer Reports still lists them as the among the best vehicles because people believe the hype. The same goes for Glocks. No offense to the Cult Of The Glock but those guns have had serious problems yet people still say they're rock solid. I guess the hype mill doesn't recognize facts that contradict the conventional wisdom of many things. Same goes for Sigs. If you haven't noticed a lot of people have had problems with the new Sigs with rails. They aren't the guns they used to be either. Yet you just listed them among the best guns. Are we supposed to ignore those facts?

BTW I've seen LEO's buy Taurus weapons for their carry pieces and I've yet to hear one laugh about them. In fact I consulted a LEO about my Taurus and he loved it.

I have one of the Sigs that made their reputation (a Made In W. Germany model P220). I have a Taurus that was built to remedy the reputation problems they had in the past. You completely discount the people who say they haven't had problems with them and completely ignore the people who say they have had problems with new Sigs.

Hype never seems to change because people don't look at the facts. You accuse me of not looking at the facts yet I spent weeks researching the guns before I bought one. Yeah I'm the one ignoring the facts. Are you even aware of the problems with the P6 and the new P22X series and the P3X series Sigs? Because the people that own them have reported lots of problems with them. Yet you're here telling people to buy them. Isn't that YOU ignoring the facts or just being oblivious to them?

You have no right to insinuate that I didn't check out the information here and all over the web because you have no direct knowledge of what I did. You just assumed you knew. Again isn't that you know the facts while no one else does?

Real quality is a fleeting thing despite what you might think. I could name you hundreds of examples of things that have great reps that companies have cashed in on by selling crap at high prices because people believe they are getting the high quality they heard about. Bought a tiller lately? Do you still believe Troy Bilt is the best there is or do you know that Briggs And Stratton bought them out and sold a cheap as heck tiller with the Troy Bilt name on it? How about those Hyundais? Do they have high mileage warranties because they had trouble in the past or are they trying to build a rep? How about my Nissan Xterra? Should I go by the rep of the 300 series cars or the old Datsun p'ups of the 70's? They have vastly different reps for different vehicles. Isn't it possible that Taurus has that going on too?

You are making judgments based on sheer hype the best I can tell. I know how to do research and I don't need you telling me that I didn't do it. I could have bought a used Glock for the same amount of money I spent for my Taurus. But why buy a gun that doesn't fit my hand at all and has had Kb problems that are well documented?

I bet you pay $150 for Nike's instead of getting the $50 variety. I bet you own an Ipod instead of one of the much better players around. I'll bet you've never even heard of a minidisc player and if you have I bet you think they play compressed music. What about iriver stuff? Do you know what it is? Did you buy an Iphone last year before the price dropped two weeks later?

Hype is not a good thing IMO. It can be started by the silliest of things and no amount of reason or logic will change it. You have the answer for everything without even trying. I'll tell you what. I know people who laugh out loud at people like you.

King Ghidora · July 23, 2008, 05:03 PM

I hate to break the news to you Sturmgewehre but handguns can be mailed under certain circumstances. From the USPS web site:

1.5Manufacturers and Dealers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

You have to get a FFL holder to do it and there are procedures you have to follow but it can be done and it's cheap.

My wife is a postmaster. She tends to know these things.

dawgfvr · July 23, 2008, 05:39 PM

KG...

I like the way you think! Nice job. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed.

Ace_Breaker · July 23, 2008, 09:01 PM

Hehehe, sounds like somebody took this personal.

QUOTE]I've seen LEO's buy Taurus weapons for their carry pieces and I've yet to hear one laugh about them.[/QUOTE]
I'm in about a 700 officer department. No Taurus handguns that I've ever seen. Glocks, Sig, Hk, Beretta, yes. Taurus, no. I think there is a common sense reason for that. If you don't get it, so be it.

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You are making judgments based on sheer hype the best I can tell

Nope, all wrong. You are assuming here. When you have 3 out of 3 guns completely fall apart on you, you tend to take it personal. I don't believe they are a good handgun and I'm doing what I feel is right in letting people know so they don't make the mistake of buying a handgun because it looks cool and feels good. I believe we work hard for our money and that we all deserve to get something that works properly when we buy them. I've been in one shooting, I cringe at the thought of holding a Taurus if and when I ever get in another. I feel bad for you that you bought a Taurus instead of a Glock. It's nice to have a gun that feels good in the hand. But when I was in the Marines I didn't cry to my drill instructor because the M16 was too heavy or didn't fit my paws just right. It was a darned good weapon and I made it work. I get tired of the whining and complaining about a Glock not fitting just right in the hand. I can understand if you sat on it all day, but it's in your hand for crying out loud. Get a gen. 1 with a hogue grip, shave the handgrip, make it work, but don't call it trash because it hurts the little pinky finger.

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I bet you pay $150 for Nike's instead of getting the $50 variety. I bet you own an Ipod instead of one of the much better players around. I'll bet you've never even heard of a minidisc player and if you have I bet you think they play compressed music. What about iriver stuff? Do you know what it is? Did you buy an Iphone last year before the price dropped two weeks later?

I don't own any Nike, Ipod, minidiscs, Iriver, or any of that. I put my money into my big house and 6 wooded acres south of Seattle. Well, I do have a Deere tractor, I guess that makes me a......well whatever it is you were getting at. You are much smarter and more intellectual than I. It's just too deep! Duh!

I put this information out there for those who might make use of it. Don't discount my experiences. My response may have been after yours, but it was not directed at anyone so don't get so dramatic. I appreciate everyones feedback and opinions, and don't mind a debate. I don't take this stuff personal at all. I think it's fun at some level, but keep it low key for the most part. I just have too much other stuff going on to sit down and write a mini novel. Maybe I should run to the store and get a new pair of Nike now?

ImDisaster · July 23, 2008, 09:40 PM

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Real quality is a fleeting thing despite what you might think.

Quality is tough to keep under control...but the better companies work hard at protecting it.

I'll add my experience.

I worked in engineering for the last 30 years...specialized in quality for most of that. I have a lot of experience with analyzing quality manufacturing processes.

One of the things you see in good quality manufacturing is control. Tools are changed at proper intervals. Tool travels are controlled and consistent. Tool speeds are kept in proper ranges.

When that doesn't happen there are problems. Problems that can be seen with the parts. You can see raised edges....over travel cuts....metal shavings and tears....etc. I've seen all those indications of problems with my Taurus's slide.

...and that is just what you can see. What about the things you can't. If they allow raised edges, are the edges even where they are supposed to be? Is the surface finish correct or is it too rough? Is the material to the right specification. Is it heat treated properly? What about that raised burr? Will it cause more wear...or cause something to hang up? Don't know how this could effect the durability, or reliability? Do you think the guy making $3 dollars an hour on the line, who lets these pass by does?

The fact that these things passed by means the guys minding the store are more concerned about production volume than they are about the quality of the product they put out the door.

I only have experience with the one Taurus I own, but of all the other guns I've owned, Sigs, S&W's, Rugers,...none have shown these kinds of poor quality indicators.

I have seen this before...in Chinese tools...crappy Chinese clones...sold at Harbor Freight and the like. Taurus isn't quite as bad, but they really would be a better company if they cleaned up their act.

Having said that, I do own one. For $220 bucks, used, it was a good value. It serves my purposes. I suspect it would serve a lot of other people's as well.

Sturmgewehre · July 23, 2008, 10:49 PM

I can't believe we're still discussing this.

Qwiks draw · July 24, 2008, 07:27 AM

wilson133 · July 24, 2008, 07:58 AM

To get this thread back on topic, I own a PT140 3rd generation. I've put over 2000 rounds through it and have seen none of the wear problems with it that some mention. For me there have only been 2 problems with it. The sights take some getting used to and most people will shoot low with them until they get used to them. The firing pin channel is open and can get gummed up with either excessive lubrication or lack of cleaning, leading to light primer strikes. Other than that the gun has been reliable and more accurate than I would have expected.

buzz_knox · July 24, 2008, 08:02 AM

Anyone know the muzzle velocity of standard .45 out of the PT145 barrel?

Ace_Breaker · July 24, 2008, 09:49 AM

Ok Taurus fans. Your gun does feel a niche. I see it as the Geo or Kia of handguns. It's something that you can buy cheap, looks ok, might last a while. Some have good luck with them, quite a few don't. If that's all you can afford, have at it. I have no problem with that. But don't try to convince anyone that it's a Honda or Toyota, because it's not. It's far from it.

Hk P7 Blue
Hk P7 Tactikote two tone
CZ 75B 9MM Blue
CZ 75B .40 Blue
CZ P-01 Blue
Glock 17 Gen 1
Glock 17 Gen 3
TZ75 Series 88 Gov. Blue
Ruger LCP
Kahr P45 Stainless
XD40 Sub-Compact Stainless

ImDisaster · July 24, 2008, 10:20 AM

Ok....I don't want to Taurus bash. Like I said, I own one, and trust it to protect me.

Having said that I do think the responsible thing to do is to back up my observations with pictures. These are pictures of the slide and frame on my Taurus. I haven't seen this kind of rough machining in any other gun I've owned and I don't think it bodes well for Taurus quality control.

Here is a shot showing an extraneous piece of metal that either peeled back or didn't get cut off on the slide. Indications of dull tool, incorrect tool speed, or bad tool path.

Here is a picture of chatter marks which create a rough, rasp like surface finish. This can be a tool speed or bracing issue.

Here is a bore that was drilled and not deburred with a raised lip. Above it is another view of the metal curl on the slide. A slower tool speed will often yield a clean hole. One can also debur in a separate operation or as part of the same one.

Here is some rough machining around frame holes and what looks like impact marks from setting in the pins. This probably was caused by inconsistent tool heights...including the punch press.

Here is where the recoil spring is seated against the frame. It is working material off the frame (metal shavings.) I must retract my original comment about the slide stop peening. It is the recoil spring that is peening the frame. You can also see raised metal where a bore hole was drilled below close to that surface and it pushed the metal up. This indicates a dull drill or a drill pushed too fast.

This gun functions great so far. It is accurate and reliable. I don't know how these or other unseen quality control issues might effect the long term durability but they are disconcerting...especially for someone who has a background in manufacturing such as myself and understands what they indicate.

boykinhntr · July 24, 2008, 10:36 AM

Well I certainly didn't intend to create a post that turns into a pissing match. I posted this b/c Taurus has created a gun that I feel exceeds its competors in atleast one department...ergonomics. It is a great design and feels amazing.

Only time will tell if I have problems and I WILL report them if I do. Buying this gun was not an affordability issue. I went to get a Glock and after shooting several, I just don't like them. Pick up a PT145 and you will see the obvious difference in feel.

45 shooter, I certainly wouldn't buy a Taurus either if I had gone 0 for 3. However, several of my friends that shoot much more than i have had different experiences. Several of them have many models and swear by them. I am on a local forum for hunters in Arkansas and Taurus is THE gun that everyone swears by.

I am an avid duck hunter and have had several Benelli shotguns. They are considered the cream of the crop in semi autos. My experience is that they are jamming machines and can't hold up to the rigors of duck hunting. Many will argue into they are blue in the face. Its all about personal experience.

Anyway, I am heading to the range and then going to look at a PT1911

Ace_Breaker · July 24, 2008, 10:37 AM

Wow, nice QC! Good pictures!

ImDisaster · July 24, 2008, 10:44 AM

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Well I certainly didn't intend to create a post that turns into a pissing match. I posted this b/c Taurus has created a gun that I feel exceeds its competitors in at least one department...ergonomics. It is a great design and feels amazing.

I like the feel of it too. Some complain about the long pre-travel on the trigger but I don't have any issue with that. I've even recommended them as an alternative for someone on a tight budget.

I have had only one issue and it was cosmetic. The striker cover broke off. I called Taurus and they sent me out one for a different model. Haven't got around to calling them back and trying again.

Ace_Breaker · July 24, 2008, 10:58 AM

There are a few links out there on the PT1911. I highly recommend you look over those to see the countless problems with them. One poster(PBP) posted "He said that he has now sold 26 of them total and has had to send back 14 of them for repairs. That is not a good ratio."

Why would you discount this information? I just don't get it. There are so many more reliable handguns out there. Good luck on your decision.

ImDisaster · July 24, 2008, 11:04 AM

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AceBreaker said: There are a few links out there on the PT1911. I highly recommend you look over those to see the countless problems with them.

Woops. I think you meant to put that in the other Taurus "bashing" thread.

jlh26oo · July 24, 2008, 11:33 AM

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He still sells them and he still stocks them. Why? Because people still want them even when they're warned about the poor customer service and quality issues they've seen in their store for years.

If I was a dealer, I think I would just quit carrying them before hanging a sign like THAT up. I doubt TAURUS would appreciate it L.O.L. But what can they do? I don't know if they have special dealer ranks like "authorized" or official" status they could yank (if he would even care), if they found out.

But yeah, if people still want to buy them with a warning sign there (assuming that's the only make for which he has this policy?), he still wants to make money on it. Can't blame him. I'd just love to know how many potential taurus buyers came in for one and got deterred after reading that. Or just see their reaction asking W.T.F. about it I wanted to look at a P.T. or Millenium Pro etc.

Pilot · July 24, 2008, 11:41 AM

Wow! My PT145 Milpro looks nothing like those pictures. Its been a reliable and solid shooter too. Its my only Taurus.

Sturmgewehre · July 24, 2008, 01:42 PM

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If I was a dealer, I think I would just quit carrying them before hanging a sign like THAT up. I doubt TAURUS would appreciate it L.O.L. But what can they do? I don't know if they have special dealer ranks like "authorized" or official" status they could yank (if he would even care), if they found out.

The funny back story is that my dealer called Taurus to argue with them about the shipping issue. They refused to change their policy so he mailed them a copy of the sign and said "if you guys don't start picking up the tab on shipping I'm going to be forced to hang this sign". They never responded (didn't seem to care). So, he hung the sign.

jlh26oo · July 24, 2008, 02:26 PM

R.O.F.L. so Taurus really DOESN'T G.A.F. about it in that case.

July 23, 2008, 05:39 PM	#33
dawgfvr Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Location: Olympia, Washington Posts: 430	KG... I like the way you think! Nice job. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed. __________________ It all comes down to going down the dark holes after monsters. That’s what it’s all about; when everyone else is huddled around the campfire, somebody has to go out and fight.

July 23, 2008, 10:49 PM	#36
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	I can't believe we're still discussing this. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia Last edited by Sturmgewehre; July 24, 2008 at 05:06 PM.

July 24, 2008, 11:41 AM	#48
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	Wow! My PT145 Milpro looks nothing like those pictures. Its been a reliable and solid shooter too. Its my only Taurus. __________________ Pilot

July 23, 2008, 02:15 PM	#26
King Ghidora Junior member Join Date: April 7, 2008 Location: SE Ohio Posts: 584	So the reports I cited of people shooting thousands of rounds through their PT 145 should be discounted? There can be bad examples of any gun. Even the mighty Glock, which some people seem to worship, has had some serious problems in the past. BTW the manual states clearly that +P ammo is not a good idea in the PT 145. It says it reduces the life of the gun. And I'll grant you that the barrel stopping against the take down pin isn't the best idea in the world but let's not forget that by far most of the recoil of an automatic is absorbed by the slide. And the idea that the slide being stopped by the "front of the alloy frame" is a worse idea than being stopped by plastic is beyond me. If that were true wouldn't all steel guns have a piece of plastic to absorb the inertia of the slide. My Sig's slide gets stopped by an alloy frame too. Does that mean it isn't a good weapon? And your comment that others will shoot "even less" than the 1000 rounds plus I average with my Sig is a bit puzzling too. For starters I said I shot more than 1000 rounds per year. In fact I might shoot close to 2000 rounds a year. I doubt the percentage of people is large who shoot that many rounds ever through their guns. Many people never shoot their guns at all in fact. Which brings me back to the whole point of carrying a gun like the Taurus PT 145. I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a Sig but I do expect it to have a very long life. When I bought mine I posted on this board that it will be a good idea to have a backup gun in case I ever do need to send it in for repairs. But I was thinking years down the road. If I thought it would have problems early I wouldn't have bought it. I did hear that Taurus was slow about returning guns. But I knew I had a backup that wasn't likely to quit. BTW I kept a backup (a Tokarev 7.62 X 25) for my Sig for years before I let it go because I came to believe the Sig was unlikely to break down. I actually did still keep a backup for it but it wasn't much of one (my trusty Raven P-25). But people do have breakdowns with any gun. The new Sigs are known to have issues as well. Glocks had their infamous Kb problems and also their Phase 3 problems. What you seem to be overlooking is that Taurus will repair their guns forever. How can it be impossible to fire 40-50k rounds through a gun that gets repaired for free whenever it breaks down? I would strongly suggest that anyone that shoots as much as I do keep a second gun for protection. For the average shooter who practices just enough to be able to shoot well when they need to the Taurus is going to be a fine gun. Having a backup is still a good idea but people have to start somewhere and younger people and people without a lot of money could easily get by with the Taurus PT 145. It isn't a match grade pistol that would be expected to fire thousands of rounds a year. It's a CCW pistol that should be capable of shooting a few thousand rounds to get proficient then still be reliable when the time comes God forbid. I wouldn't mistake my Taurus for a gun like my Sig. But I would accept the fact that it will be repaired for free when needed which is an amazingly good thing. It was said here that guns shipped to Taurus must be shipped overnight. My manual doesn't say that. It just says to ship it to Taurus. It won't cost anywhere near $60 to do that. Also should the take down pin fail because the barrel pivots and stops on it my guess is it would be cheap to just order a new part instead of sending the gun off for repairs. In the unlikely event that the alloy frame fails due to the fact the slide stops against it then yes you would likely need to ship the gun to Taurus. Maybe their turnaround time is long but trust me that is nothing unusual for corporations. I've had stuff take a year and a half to get back to me when I shipped it off for warranty work. Yes other companies might be better. Other companies might be worse too. Until I see data on this issue I won't just accept the rumor mill version of events. Again it's always the complainers who post. That's a natural thing of course because happy people don't have any reason to complain or to try to warn others or to try to get even by depressing sales. You can choose to believe that a Taurus isn't the same quality as a Sig or an HK or a S&W if you choose. I doubt they are that quality either. But my Sig has no forever warranty on it. My Taurus does. If my Taurus breaks down I'll have my Sig to use while I wait for the Taurus to come back. But while it still works well (and it works VERY well) I will continue to enjoy it secure in the knowledge that it does have a forever warranty. Not just a lifetime warranty you understand. It has a forever warranty. I'm quite sure I can shoot 40k rounds through a gun that gets repaired an infinite number of times. It might be my great grandkids that shoot that round number 40k but it can be done. BTW I'm not so sure my Sig will ever make it that far.

July 23, 2008, 02:43 PM	#28
boykinhntr Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Posts: 235	One thing i have learned, is to take the advice of local professionals that I know and trust and combine that with my own experiences. Having done so, the PT145 is THE weapon I chose for self defense. Some Tauruses have had problems but that doesn't mean the PTs have. Kimber has had more than its fair share of problems as well. Every time i am at the range, there is some issue with somebody's gun. I have seen problems with all manufacturers. The turnaround time from the Taurus factory is a non issue with me. They actually have stepped up like few companies and said "we will fix your gun for the life of the piece". Obviously, they are going to have a lot more warranty work than a company that has a 1 or 2 year warranty. I see it as a compromise. Buy a gun with a 1 year warranty but get quick service or buy a gun that will be repaired for the life of the weapon but wait a few months. I think i will wait.

July 23, 2008, 04:20 PM	#30
Ace_Breaker Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2007 Posts: 1,170	This was discussed at length on other Taurus posts, but gotta jump in on this one. I've been involved in the LE community for around 30 years. I have yet to find one LE using a Taurus as a primary or secondary weapon. There may be some out there somewhere, but I know of none. I've been a trainer for 15 years and trained many laterals from all over the country. I have yet to see any lateral carrying the bull. Most large LE agencies with firearms and ammunition boards won't allow Taurus to be carried as a primary weapon. Almost all LE, armorers, tactical equipment/gun shops, shooting experts, laugh when Taurus is brought up as a carry option. There have been a few good models, but I'm talking about the big picture. So don't go off saying you have a Taurus that worked great in your 50 rounds of experience! Better yet, Taurus is great because you have one of them that works! All guns can and do break. Again, let's look at the big picture. There are no actual statistics for weapons breakages that I know of. It is forums like this that share this type of information and experience. Many Taurus lovers argue for their weapons, but refuse to listen to the wealth of information here, deaf to valid facts and real life stories. Wake up! Secondly, resale value on them is garbage. Expect to take a bath when you decide to let the bull go. I think people buy Taurus because they are cheap coupled with lack of knowledge and information about quality firearms. After having all 3 of my Tauri' break on me, I'd be a complete idiot to trust them to save my life or another. It just isn't going to happen. Why waste my time fiddle farting around with garbage when I've never had a malfunction or problem with several other name brand weapons. A Taurus is not at the level of Glock, Sig, Hk, Ruger, and so on, period! Doing more research on the boards you will find some Taurus supporters that went on to have breakages and problems after they so adamantly defended the company. If you buy one and it breaks it is your fault. The information is here and you read it. For the same amount of money a decent used Glock, CZ, Sig, etc. can be aquired. Buying a quality firearm other than Taurus is my recommendation. Now I'm going swimming to cool off.

July 23, 2008, 04:50 PM	#31
King Ghidora Junior member Join Date: April 7, 2008 Location: SE Ohio Posts: 584	You know Ace I've seen so many reputation arguments that were nothing but hype I couldn't begin to count them all. Start with that Chrysler argument. Their vans are still top notch and they put the same 100k mile warranty on them so apparently they used the warranty for other purposes. Then let's talk about how people feel about Toyotas. I've owned about 20 of them since the early 70's. In the 70's and early 80's they were great. Since then they have become mostly crap. Yet Consumer Reports still lists them as the among the best vehicles because people believe the hype. The same goes for Glocks. No offense to the Cult Of The Glock but those guns have had serious problems yet people still say they're rock solid. I guess the hype mill doesn't recognize facts that contradict the conventional wisdom of many things. Same goes for Sigs. If you haven't noticed a lot of people have had problems with the new Sigs with rails. They aren't the guns they used to be either. Yet you just listed them among the best guns. Are we supposed to ignore those facts? BTW I've seen LEO's buy Taurus weapons for their carry pieces and I've yet to hear one laugh about them. In fact I consulted a LEO about my Taurus and he loved it. I have one of the Sigs that made their reputation (a Made In W. Germany model P220). I have a Taurus that was built to remedy the reputation problems they had in the past. You completely discount the people who say they haven't had problems with them and completely ignore the people who say they have had problems with new Sigs. Hype never seems to change because people don't look at the facts. You accuse me of not looking at the facts yet I spent weeks researching the guns before I bought one. Yeah I'm the one ignoring the facts. Are you even aware of the problems with the P6 and the new P22X series and the P3X series Sigs? Because the people that own them have reported lots of problems with them. Yet you're here telling people to buy them. Isn't that YOU ignoring the facts or just being oblivious to them? You have no right to insinuate that I didn't check out the information here and all over the web because you have no direct knowledge of what I did. You just assumed you knew. Again isn't that you know the facts while no one else does? Real quality is a fleeting thing despite what you might think. I could name you hundreds of examples of things that have great reps that companies have cashed in on by selling crap at high prices because people believe they are getting the high quality they heard about. Bought a tiller lately? Do you still believe Troy Bilt is the best there is or do you know that Briggs And Stratton bought them out and sold a cheap as heck tiller with the Troy Bilt name on it? How about those Hyundais? Do they have high mileage warranties because they had trouble in the past or are they trying to build a rep? How about my Nissan Xterra? Should I go by the rep of the 300 series cars or the old Datsun p'ups of the 70's? They have vastly different reps for different vehicles. Isn't it possible that Taurus has that going on too? You are making judgments based on sheer hype the best I can tell. I know how to do research and I don't need you telling me that I didn't do it. I could have bought a used Glock for the same amount of money I spent for my Taurus. But why buy a gun that doesn't fit my hand at all and has had Kb problems that are well documented? I bet you pay $150 for Nike's instead of getting the $50 variety. I bet you own an Ipod instead of one of the much better players around. I'll bet you've never even heard of a minidisc player and if you have I bet you think they play compressed music. What about iriver stuff? Do you know what it is? Did you buy an Iphone last year before the price dropped two weeks later? Hype is not a good thing IMO. It can be started by the silliest of things and no amount of reason or logic will change it. You have the answer for everything without even trying. I'll tell you what. I know people who laugh out loud at people like you.

July 23, 2008, 05:03 PM	#32
King Ghidora Junior member Join Date: April 7, 2008 Location: SE Ohio Posts: 584	I hate to break the news to you Sturmgewehre but handguns can be mailed under certain circumstances. From the USPS web site: 1.5Manufacturers and Dealers Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts. You have to get a FFL holder to do it and there are procedures you have to follow but it can be done and it's cheap. My wife is a postmaster. She tends to know these things.

July 24, 2008, 07:27 AM	#37
Qwiks draw Junior member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Posts: 879	You Taurus owners don't really expect any respect at any level do you? Examples that it doesn't happen on a regular basis. The bad part is that it is allowed to happen. We're all supposed to be in this together as far as the shooting fraternity is concerned. Yet there are those who can't anyone be happy for Taurus owners, not insult out intelligence or our picks,and are elitist and arrogant to the highest degree.These people turn what should be normal regular discussion into a sewer, where free expression and thought are stifled, and total disrespect of us is total. http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=8074.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=8038.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=1814.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=6016.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=7111.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=898.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=5835.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=4379.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=7081.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=3050.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=7194.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=7865.0 http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=2944.0 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=293984 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=302951 Oh,yes. Facts and the truth don't matter to this crowd.

July 24, 2008, 07:58 AM	#38
wilson133 Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Posts: 194	To get this thread back on topic, I own a PT140 3rd generation. I've put over 2000 rounds through it and have seen none of the wear problems with it that some mention. For me there have only been 2 problems with it. The sights take some getting used to and most people will shoot low with them until they get used to them. The firing pin channel is open and can get gummed up with either excessive lubrication or lack of cleaning, leading to light primer strikes. Other than that the gun has been reliable and more accurate than I would have expected.

July 24, 2008, 08:02 AM	#39
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	Anyone know the muzzle velocity of standard .45 out of the PT145 barrel?

July 24, 2008, 09:49 AM	#40
Ace_Breaker Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2007 Posts: 1,170	Ok Taurus fans. Your gun does feel a niche. I see it as the Geo or Kia of handguns. It's something that you can buy cheap, looks ok, might last a while. Some have good luck with them, quite a few don't. If that's all you can afford, have at it. I have no problem with that. But don't try to convince anyone that it's a Honda or Toyota, because it's not. It's far from it. Hk P7 Blue Hk P7 Tactikote two tone CZ 75B 9MM Blue CZ 75B .40 Blue CZ P-01 Blue Glock 17 Gen 1 Glock 17 Gen 3 TZ75 Series 88 Gov. Blue Ruger LCP Kahr P45 Stainless XD40 Sub-Compact Stainless

July 24, 2008, 10:20 AM	#41
ImDisaster Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2008 Posts: 403	Ok....I don't want to Taurus bash. Like I said, I own one, and trust it to protect me. Having said that I do think the responsible thing to do is to back up my observations with pictures. These are pictures of the slide and frame on my Taurus. I haven't seen this kind of rough machining in any other gun I've owned and I don't think it bodes well for Taurus quality control. Here is a shot showing an extraneous piece of metal that either peeled back or didn't get cut off on the slide. Indications of dull tool, incorrect tool speed, or bad tool path. Here is a picture of chatter marks which create a rough, rasp like surface finish. This can be a tool speed or bracing issue. Here is a bore that was drilled and not deburred with a raised lip. Above it is another view of the metal curl on the slide. A slower tool speed will often yield a clean hole. One can also debur in a separate operation or as part of the same one. Here is some rough machining around frame holes and what looks like impact marks from setting in the pins. This probably was caused by inconsistent tool heights...including the punch press. Here is where the recoil spring is seated against the frame. It is working material off the frame (metal shavings.) I must retract my original comment about the slide stop peening. It is the recoil spring that is peening the frame. You can also see raised metal where a bore hole was drilled below close to that surface and it pushed the metal up. This indicates a dull drill or a drill pushed too fast. This gun functions great so far. It is accurate and reliable. I don't know how these or other unseen quality control issues might effect the long term durability but they are disconcerting...especially for someone who has a background in manufacturing such as myself and understands what they indicate.

July 24, 2008, 10:36 AM	#42
boykinhntr Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Posts: 235	Well I certainly didn't intend to create a post that turns into a pissing match. I posted this b/c Taurus has created a gun that I feel exceeds its competors in atleast one department...ergonomics. It is a great design and feels amazing. Only time will tell if I have problems and I WILL report them if I do. Buying this gun was not an affordability issue. I went to get a Glock and after shooting several, I just don't like them. Pick up a PT145 and you will see the obvious difference in feel. 45 shooter, I certainly wouldn't buy a Taurus either if I had gone 0 for 3. However, several of my friends that shoot much more than i have had different experiences. Several of them have many models and swear by them. I am on a local forum for hunters in Arkansas and Taurus is THE gun that everyone swears by. I am an avid duck hunter and have had several Benelli shotguns. They are considered the cream of the crop in semi autos. My experience is that they are jamming machines and can't hold up to the rigors of duck hunting. Many will argue into they are blue in the face. Its all about personal experience. Anyway, I am heading to the range and then going to look at a PT1911

July 24, 2008, 10:37 AM	#43
Ace_Breaker Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2007 Posts: 1,170	Wow, nice QC! Good pictures!

July 24, 2008, 10:58 AM	#45
Ace_Breaker Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2007 Posts: 1,170	There are a few links out there on the PT1911. I highly recommend you look over those to see the countless problems with them. One poster(PBP) posted "He said that he has now sold 26 of them total and has had to send back 14 of them for repairs. That is not a good ratio." Why would you discount this information? I just don't get it. There are so many more reliable handguns out there. Good luck on your decision.

July 24, 2008, 02:26 PM	#50
jlh26oo Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2006 Posts: 504	R.O.F.L. so Taurus really DOESN'T G.A.F. about it in that case.