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Old July 31, 2008, 01:49 PM   #1
charles isaac
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.460 Smith Cylinder Gap=Thumb Blown Clean Off!

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=316726

Darwin Award!

Couple bring Smith & Wesson under fire with suit
By: Lynn LaRowe - Texarkana Gazette - Published: 07/30/2008

A Rosston, Ark., couple are suing Smith & Wesson in federal court because of a serious injury allegedly caused by a .460 Magnum revolver.

Todd Brown bought an S&W .460 Magnum revolver last fall. When he tried using it to shoot a deer the day after Christmas, gases escaping from the gun’s barrel severed his thumb, the suit alleges.

“Todd then lowered the gun to see if he had hit the deer, and as he was looking for the deer in the moments following the shot he saw blood shooting up in the air and on his gun and clothes, and he looked and saw that his thumb had been severed from his left hand and there was a deep gash in the flesh of the palm of his left hand extending up to his index finger ...” the suit alleges.

Brown decided to purchase the weapon after watching a hunting show promoting the gun’s use to hunt bigger game, such as deer, the suit states. Brown bought the revolver, a scope and a holster from an authorized S&W dealer in Hope, Ark., on Dec. 21, 2007, for $1,896.58.

On Dec. 26, the opening day of the Christmas deer hunt, Brown tried to use the revolver to shoot a deer.

Monticello, Ark., attorney Cliff Gibson III filed the suit on Brown’s behalf July 18.

Smith & Wesson President and Chief Operating Officer Leland Nichols said the company could not comment on the suit and had not yet been served with a copy of the complaint.

The suit blames Brown’s injuries on alleged negligence by Smith & Wesson.

The first area of negligence the suit alleges is in the gun’s design. The suit asserts that S&W should have had the foresight to “design away” the risk of harm posed by “... the extraordinarily powerful gases expelled through the barrel-cylinder gap ...”

The likelihood that a hunter might move a hand forward on the gun’s barrel when trying to site an animal should have been anticipated by S&W and factored into the gun’s design, the suit states.

“This negligence includes ... the failure to reduce the length and weight of the gun barrel, the failure to increase the length of the cylinder, the failure to otherwise provide for better balance of the gun’s hefty weight, and the failure to provide a larger and more robust pistol grip for necessary two-handed firing of this heavy high-powered gun,” the complaint states.

S&W should have realized hunters in the woods won’t always have a convenient place to rest the weighty gun when firing, the suit alleges.

“Smith and Wesson consequently knew or had reason to know that while hunting in the woods and fields Todd Brown would have to support the heavy weight of this gun while shooting same solely by the strength of his hands and arms, thereby making it likely and probable that hunters, including Todd, would move his free hand forward and closer to the extremely dangerous barrel-cylinder gap in order to support and balance the gun while sighting-in the game,” the suit alleges.

The suit also alleges S&W failed to conduct enough testing on the gun before placing it on the market.

Warnings that might have alerted Todd Brown to the alleged dangers of the gun didn’t exist, the suit states.

“Further, Smith & Wesson was negligent in failing to give Todd Brown a reasonable and adequate warning and instruction respecting the nature, extent and severity of the danger of the devastating injury and harm (i.e. it will cut your hand off) presented to a shooter by its Model 460 Magnum Revolver,” the suit alleges.

The Browns are asking a jury in the Western District of Arkansas, El Dorado division, to award them damages for Todd Brown’s “... great, grievous and permanent injury to his person, past and future medical expense necessary to treat and care for his injuries, past and future pain, suffering and mental anguish, past and future loss of earnings, loss of earning capacity, and scars and disfigurement to his person,” the suit said.

They also want compensation for Kathy Brown’s “loss of consortium.”

Smith & Wesson voluntarily recalled an earlier version of the .460 because of problems with the barrel.

The S&W Performance Center Model 460XVR Revolvers manufactured by an outside supplier were found to have substandard steel present in the barrel, according to Smith & Wesson’s Website.

The recall included only Performance Center Model .460 Revolvers shipped before Sept. 18, 2006. Specifically not included in the recall were standard production .460 revolvers.
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:11 PM   #2
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... and this is the reason we cannot have good things!
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:15 PM   #3
HKFan9
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I'm sure he had to shoot the thing before hand to sight the scope in..... so it's basically his fault for putting his hand on or near the cylinder. It sounds like it hurt like heck though, so I guess this is a case of where stupid really does hurt.
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:21 PM   #4
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So you mean if I look down the barrel to watch the bullet come out I could sue S&W?
Never saw a disclaimer on this in the manual.

The law suites add to our gun costs.
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:33 PM   #5
Magnum Wheel Man
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I'm way way not the type that likes any kind of legal litegation... but if the barrel cylinder gap was that dangerous IMO it should have at least had a warning in the manual... to cover their arss

I shouldn't even say anything, as it implys to my lack there of... but I've "burned my thumb" several times on my scoped 30 carbine Blackhawk... if the barrel cylinder gap were that dangerous on that gun.... I'd have blown my thumb off 3-4 times already

IMO... the barrel cylinder gap likely should have been tighter as it is on some of my other higher pressure cartridged revolvers... yes they scrub if fired too much between cleanings, but better a burn than an amputating
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:49 PM   #6
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... but if the barrel cylinder gap was that dangerous IMO it should have at least had a warning in the manual... to cover their arss
It does, on Page 19.

"WARNING: ALWAYS KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY FROM THE AREA BETWEEN THE CYLINDER AND THE BARREL DURING FIRING. PARTICLES AND HOT
GAS WILL BE FORCED OUT FROM BETWEEN THE BARREL AND CYLINDER IN ANY REVOLVER DURING NORMAL USE. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING WILL CAUSE SERIOUS PERSONAL INJURY." (In red boldfaced letters)

"Always use the proper grip as shown for a two-hand hold (Figures 11 & 12). This keeps hands and fingers away from the barrel/cylinder gap."

(2 pictures showing how to do it, followed by 2 pictures showing how NOT to do it, with big red crosses through them)

"Never allow hands or fingers to extend beyond the front of the cylinder when firing (Figures 13 & 14). This is an improper hold for any revolver."

Uhhh, RTFM, Mr. Brown.
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I shouldn't even say anything, as it implys to my lack there of... but I've "burned my thumb" several times on my scoped 30 carbine Blackhawk...
OTOH the .30 Carbine, in a revolver, does not launch projectiles at velocities normally associated with rifle calibers that start with "7.62x".
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:56 PM   #7
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Mr. Brown isn't alone. There is a guy from Missouri who had a similiar experience.

Link (WARNING: Graphic picture of mangled thumb).
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:57 PM   #8
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I'd be ashamed of myself. It's people that this that caused (in a round about way) S&W to put those damn locks on their revolvers. I'm sorry, but the world can't be a babysitter for everyone. Sometimes you need to take responsiblity for your own actions. This guy has zero ground to stand on by suing S&W.
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:58 PM   #9
Mike Irwin
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Another reason why 'tards shouldn't be allowed to purchase firearms of any kind.
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Old July 31, 2008, 02:58 PM   #10
Sriracha
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Oh well. If the manual says that, then there should be no room for argument.

Maybe S&W will go the way of Ruger and just print the full text of the manual on the side of the barrel

- Sr.
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Old July 31, 2008, 03:04 PM   #11
charles isaac
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I guess I learned at an early age from an oldtimer that schooled me on those those old Civil War era Colts, Remingtons, Whitneys etc. seeing how these old guns my very well suffer a chain fire and you can shoot some or most of your hand off when bullets fly from multiple chambers with a single pull of the trigger and you are holding the gun improperly.

Smith made an experimental M&P in .30 Carbine back in WWII. Muzzle blast was horiffic from a service length barrel so the project got shelved. I bet the barrel gap blast was terrible also.
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Old July 31, 2008, 05:15 PM   #12
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Always felt the 30 carbine round had a nasty crack in anything other than carbine length.
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Old July 31, 2008, 05:42 PM   #13
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I'm sure he had to shoot the thing before hand to sight the scope in
I wouldn't assume he had. He wasn't sharp enough to know about the gap, he wasn't sharp enough to read the manual - what makes you think he was smart enough to know he had to sight it in.....after all, he bought it with the scope already on it, so it had to be sighted in, right

I have about 600 rds through my .460, and I still have all my fingers. If I can do it, it can't be rocket science...
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Old July 31, 2008, 05:49 PM   #14
Brian Pfleuger
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You should think the gun wouldn't buy a gun that he clearly did not shoot well... or for that matter shoot EVER before.
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Old July 31, 2008, 06:10 PM   #15
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Always felt the 30 carbine round had a nasty crack in anything other than carbine length.
That's one of it's most endearing qualities. (I think I'll go out to the range and shoot my .30 Blackhawk some tonight)
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Old July 31, 2008, 06:14 PM   #16
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One of these e-tards calls this a proper two-hand grip:



Note the prone thumb forward of the cylinder? Idgit.

Also, note the young, wimpy, boney wrists and hands (with baby soft skin) in the picture. This is NOT what an experienced magnum revolver shooter's hands look like.

Next, we'll get some gawd-awful heavy recoil shelf attached to the crane of the revolver so that Darwin-award selectmen like these can have a two-handed forward grip on their revolvers with rifle-like power that they can't shoot for a d@mn.
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Old July 31, 2008, 10:35 PM   #17
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Actually azredhawk44, that pic is from the aforementioned link. The man who blew his thumb off, (and realized what he did was stupid) said thats how he was holding the gun. Im guessing those would be his wifes hands, seeing as how the thumb is still intact.

He says he "was using a two handed grip" But never says it was the wrong grip for a revolver.
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Old July 31, 2008, 10:45 PM   #18
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charles isaac wrote: They also want compensation for Kathy Brown’s “loss of consortium.”
I could make all kinds of crude comments about that statement...but I won't.
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Old July 31, 2008, 10:52 PM   #19
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Luckily there are hordes of lawyers standing by to save the idiots from themselves. Todd Brown is a First Class Dumbass.
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Old August 1, 2008, 03:26 AM   #20
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stupid people should not own a revolver!!! That is revolver 101

One of my friends got a slight powder burn from my .357 He told me he had a revolver. So I figured he knew how to hold it. Luckily it was mostley benched. So his hand wasn't right next to the cylinder. I told him how to hold it and that he was lucky it wasn't my .44 Magnum
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Old August 1, 2008, 06:47 AM   #21
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stupid people should not own a revolver!!! That is revolver 101
Sadly, it's not even just guns, stupid people shouldn't own chain saws, cars, motorcycles, sharp knives, rifles, gas cans, shotguns, hair dryers, space heaters, be allowed to have children or even have access to the internet! The list could go on forever.

Point is, virtually no product is idiot proof. People need to take responsiblity for their actions.
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Old August 1, 2008, 09:10 AM   #22
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god i hope the judge smacks this guy in the head with his own gun.

personally, i believe the that person suing should be required to pay all court and attorney fees for both sides whither or not they win.
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Old August 1, 2008, 09:51 AM   #23
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There is an old saying: "Every time you make something fool-proof, they come out with a better fool." I think that applies here.

This guy will not win in court. S&W did their homework, and "Read Manual Before Use" is probably printed right on the side of the barrel. Their lawyers will have him for lunch, and he will lose his own lawyer fee too. (in addition to his ER co-pay)

Next thing we know, he will run for congress and try to ban guns like someone named Brady.
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Old August 1, 2008, 10:01 AM   #24
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So wait... guns can hurt you if you don't know how to use them? now i am confused
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Old August 1, 2008, 10:04 AM   #25
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Another version of Smaug's line:

The problem with trying to make something fool-proof is underestimating the fools.
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