More BATF BS!!!!

[denfoote]

http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=936335

ATF seizes weapons bound for Mexico

August 16th, 2008 @ 1:44pm
by KPHO.com

Phoenix's branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said on Friday it took 18 automatic weapons bound for Mexico off Arizona streets before they got south of the border.

The guns were heading to drug cartels in Mexico from the U.S., said William Newell, special agent in charge, ATF, Phoenix field division.

Newell said agents found five of them strapped underneath a truck heading for the border two weeks ago. Then they found 13 more two days later.

Agents said a women made a straw purchase of 13 in Phoenix, meaning she lied, saying the guns were for her, when they were, in fact, going to a Mexican drug cartel.

"The issue is she was trying to earn some money," Newell said. "And it's unfortunate, because, now, she's in big trouble."

Newell said gun trafficking to Mexico has increased as the Mexican government tries to address drug cartels more fiercely.

"They're using firearms such as these to fight the fight," Newell said. "It's a war, is what it is. It's a war."

Newell said 95 percent of the guns seized in Mexico are from the U.S.

More anti gun BATF propaganda for the sheeple!!

[blume357]

boy, I wish.

[Gestalt]

Automatic weapons? Who's lying here the ATF or the reporter?

[Dust Monkey]

The article suggests that a woman bought 13 automatic weapons. How does one buy 13 Automatic weapons without raising flags? Hell, if I purchase 2 semi auto pistols, my dealer has to fill out a mutiple purchase paperwork.

[ajaxinacan]

Aside from the obvious statement about "automatic" weapons, what's wrong with the article?

For the sake of arguement, let's assume some ATF agent used the out-of-date term "automatic" for a semi-automatic weapon. Thirty years ago, it was very common, even normal to use the terms interchagably. Or (more likely) assume the reporter inserted the term "automatic" on his own.

Help me understand how this is a bad thing? Some person buys weapons (automatic or otherwise) and attempts to export them illegally to criminals who prey on our own citizens. They get caught and you guys think it's just more "BS?" :barf:

I say this was good police work.

[hammer4nc]

The Phoenix Field Division of ATF is one of the more political, arguably out of control ATF offices in the country. The Cavalry Arms raid stands out as a glaring example of abuse. Always Think Forfeiture exemplified? Anyone can google "thomas mangan"+"atf" for a selection of politically slanted articles and videos.

Read between the lines, people! Aside from the obvious inflammatory "automatic weapons" misdirection, this article is rather peculiar in that a suspect is not named...raising the suspicion that the arrestee was a paid informant, and that the straw purchase was, in fact concocted by the ATF to entrap someone perceived to be a "bigger fish"; with a "international drug cartel" persona. That would translate into awards and promotions for the office.

Seems like the Phoenix ATF office specializes in splashy raids and busts, that rarely follow with trials and/or convictions. Wonder why?

We currently have a "multiple handgun purchase" reporting form for FFL's. Judging from the string of press releases, I guarantee that the Phoenix ATF office is leading the political cause for a MULTIPLE RIFLE PURCHASE reporting form, or even more obnoxious, the ONE GUN PER MONTH purchase restiction; if that can be accomplished under the new Obama regime. You heard it here first.

[Oldphart]

+1 LongRifles

[hoytinak]

+1 LongRifles

I agree, I thought that was a good post myself.

[oldcspsarge]

I would bet the reporter doesnt know semi from full auto and IS using a generic term.

I am glad they seized the guns. It is illegal to export firearms from the USA to Mexico without a permit. These were not for self defense in Mexico or sport hunting !

Mexico drug cartels are at war with the government and killing police officers and chiefs almost daily in Mexico. It is really bad..google it to read abou the running gun battles in the streets.

BATF has a job to do. They differ from the Boy Scouts of America as they do not have responsible adult leadership !

This seizure is a good thing ! WACO and Ruby Ridge were crimes against American Citizens....and effectively swept under the carpet .

[hammer4nc]

Here's a good example of what I referenced: ABC news facilitates Phoenix ATF rogues Newell & Mangan hyperbole; concerning inanimate objects. Notice the reference to "multiple sales forms"? Cue the cute feminine voice ..."do you guys have any AK's?":barf:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4711745

[Erik]

"Help me understand how this is a bad thing? Some person buys weapons (automatic or otherwise) and attempts to export them illegally to criminals who prey on our own citizens. They get caught and you guys think it's just more "BS?"

I say this was good police work."

It is not and and it. Good for them. Had the FBI, ICE, or any other entity interdicted the suspect what would be different? Nothing of substance. Targeting multi-felony commiting criminals, and catching them during the course of criminal activity, should be high on the list of any investigations outfit, ATF or other wise.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

I thought this was the sort of thing that the BATFE was supposed to do. Good for them.

They shouldn't be illegal in the first place.

They aren't illegal just regulated.

Yes, I advocate that common everyday citizens should be able to own machine guns.

They can own them but their ownership is restricted. I'm glad they are.

Switzerland has done it successfully for a very long time.

We ain't in Switzerland and there are stringent requirements for handling and usage of those weapons in Switzerland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland

We used to prior to the FFA of 1934.

I think very few people other than criminals owned them. I have no hard numbers on that (nobody has any numbers to refute my position either) but common sense tells me that FA weapons would not have been a choice for civilians then because of the cost and that impracticality for civilian use.

If I am able to purchase exotic cars and motorcycles possessing tremendous power with no special permits, what is the difference?

You have to register them and possess a license to drive them. Also, your insurance will charge you more to own them. All rights in the COTUS are limited and none are absolute.

Again, so what? That's Mexico's problem.

Mexico's problems often tend to become our problems. See the methamphetimine problem.

She's a criminal only because the Federal Government has decided to pass a bunch of laws that further erode our rights.

Cut her loose.

We are a nation of laws. The SCOTUS has not declared those firearms laws unconstitutional so they are NOT an infringement on our rights. Lock her up tight.

[Stagger Lee]

I'm good with it. Nice job, BATFE. Guns that don't wind up in the hands of Mexican criminals can't kill US Border agents, civilians on border towns, or even innocent Mexicans. Nothing good comes of criminals possessing guns, be they here in America or just over the virtually non-existent border.


This is what BATFE does...it takes guns away from the people that aren't supposed to have them.

[S832]

Select fire guns should be purchasable but they should require a special permit to own.

In regards to the woman trafficking, its an unfortunate she did what she did.

[kamerer]

+1 Tennessee Gentleman. Good to interject some rational thought once in a while to these threads.

Were I the licensed dealer the woman approached about buying 13 rifles for her personal use, I'd either:

1) refuse her on the spot, or

2) Ask her to come back tomorrow for delivery, then call the ATF so they could be there, too.

This is simply a case of enforcing the laws on the books, and it sounds like it went well. I seriously hope they got the higher-ups and not just the "gun mules" in this transaction.

I have serious concerns over the Cavalry Arms issue and hope it gets investigated thoroughly - but this seems well above-board.

[CWO4USCGRET]

Despite what a small number of you may think of the BATFE Field Office in Phoenix or BATFE in general, or the fact that they are mislabeled as automatics, there was nothing legal in the purchase of the guns or the smuggling of them out of the country.

I don't see how any of you can justify those actions. Its criminals like her that cause the rest of us legitmate gun owners (and I'm a Federal LEO too) to suffer from needless over-regulation.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Well said kamerer and CWO4USCGRET. My dad once told me that locks were for honest people.

[KyJim]

+1 for those who think it's good police work. Maybe it's some of these guns that the BGs are using to shoot at our border patrol when the BGs smuggle drugs and illegal aliens to this side of the border.

[TheBluesMan]

I tend to side with most of the other members here in failing to see how this is "BATF BS", Dennis. Care to explain your position in a little more depth?

[Oldphart]

There is a very basic point here that no one seems to have addressed. If I may, I'd like to lead the forum to it.

The woman bought a bunch of guns and tried to smuggle them across the border to sell to some drug lords. Right?

Those drug lords are at "war" with their government (and ours) over the distribution of controlled substances (drugs.) Right?

War, usually an unprofitable undertaking, is only profitable in this case because of the huge fees charged for the product. Right?

While there is a market for those drugs in Mexico, the primary market is here in the US. Right?

Those drugs, if manufactured in a legal American factory and sold at Walgreen's would be sold for pennies on the dollar rather than at the exorbitant prices they now draw. Right?

Those exorbitant prices are less an effect of manufacturing costs than a side effect of the enforcement of governmental controls. Right?

Ergo, if government were to "butt out" the prices would drop (after a certain "binge period" in which all the users would go nuts, OD and further reduce the market,) the drug lords would be reduced to fighting over whose sister was insulted at the last party and no one would care whether guns were being transported across the border.

Sound good? Think it could happen? Not in our wildest dreams. Here's why.

If you think the drug distribution business is big you should look at the drug interdiction business. A number of members of this board derive a goodly portion of their paychecks from the war on drugs. Enforcement officers, prosecutors, judges, social workers, correctional officers, probation agents and all the millions of support personnel would suddenly be out of jobs. We'd have to close prisons which would leave whole towns with no supporting industry.

No, we've allowed the government to stick its nose and then its finger into places it didn't belong. Now we're realizing that that was neither a nose or a finger and... we're screwed.

[blume357]

biggest joke in our country is our 'war' on drugs...

are we all blind or is this not just a repeat of prohibition?

legalize and tax the hell out of these drugs... if you are adicted then get help from the government...

too may folks on both sides of the fence on drugs rely on continueing this war for a paycheck.


One other point... Everybody assumes these guns were going to drug dealers in Mexico. What if they were ment for regular, honest Mexican citizens who just wanted to protect themselves from both the drug dealers and crooked government?

[hammer4nc]

I don't see how any of you can justify those actions. Its criminals like her that cause the rest of us legitmate gun owners (and I'm a Federal LEO too) to suffer from needless over-regulation.

Questioning the actions and motives of the ATF individuals in this instance does NOT mean that we are justifying the actions of the suspect. There are many cases were both parties are wrong, and this may be one of them? It's a naive oversimplification to cast every conflict as good vs. evil.

In this instance, you don't have to harken back to Waco and Ruby Ridge to find questionable words and actions by the Phoenix ATF office...it's the SAME INDIVIDUALS who masterminded the Cavalry Arms debacle, who are spamming the internet with politically charged, self serving press releases and videos spearheading new gun control legislation. Not years ago, but in the present tense.

This article reads more like a press release than a true news article. Here's another one from the anti-gun SF Chronicle, which goes beyond the single truck incident in Phoenix, includes all the political overtones that concern me:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNIA128E0D.DTL

To those who have applauded the Phoenix ATF office: Do you favor new restrictions requiring reporting of multiple rifle purchases? Restrictions on certain weapons like the FN 5.7, .50 Cal, AK pattern rifles? Do you favor abolition of gun shows, and private transfers? Forfeiture of property without explanation, charges, or trial?

Well, these are the agendas that Phoenix ATF agents Mangan, Newell, and Hoover are pushing. Take the time to read their press releases, watch their videos. You WILL see new legislation springing forth from all this "IRON RIVER" international smuggling hyperbole. That is the real issue here.

Take the blinders off.

[buzz_knox]

I think very few people other than criminals owned them. I have no hard numbers on that (nobody has any numbers to refute my position either) but common sense tells me that FA weapons would not have been a choice for civilians then because of the cost and that impracticality for civilian use.

Be careful how you use "common sense" as its tainted by pereceptions. The actual cost of an NFA weapon was and is not much different than most other weapons. It's only been since '68 and '86 that prices have skyrocketed for foreign and domestic fully automatic weapons, respectively.

You have to register them and possess a license to drive them. Also, your insurance will charge you more to own them. All rights in the COTUS are limited and none are absolute.

You have to register and obtain a license to drive vehicles on public roads. Vehicles which will not be driven on public roads do not require registration nor do the drivers require licenses. So, to use your analogy, I should be free to own and operate a fully functional M2HB and (assuming local laws allow shooting) plink with it in my backyard without any interference or prior approval from the gov't as long as I don't fire it on the public areas.

[stevelyn]

The Waffen BATFEces doing something worthwhile for once, but it's tempered with their propaganda.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

There is a very basic point here that no one seems to have addressed. If I may, I'd like to lead the forum to it...biggest joke in our country is our 'war' on drugs...

Off topic and I won't get into that debate as I think legalizing drugs is about as stupid as using them. I would start another thread on that.

Be careful how you use "common sense" as its tainted by pereceptions.

Perhaps. I don't have hard numbers about civilian ownership of full auto weapons. But, neither do you as they didn't measure it. I have read that Thompson tried to market its subgun to farmers and they didn't do well. So, all I have to look at is the culture of hunting and self defense as I know it from my relatives and others I knew who lived then. From that I believe that very very few law abiding citizens owned FA weapons prior to the 1934 NFA. I think if they had been a lot of those owners there would have been a lot more protest against the law. I think the argument is spurious.

The actual cost of an NFA weapon was and is not much different than most other weapons.

Much more expensive to shoot though.

So, to use your analogy, I should be free to own and operate a fully functional M2HB and (assuming local laws allow shooting) plink with it in my backyard without any interference or prior approval from the gov't as long as I don't fire it on the public areas.

You can do all of that now except for the plinking part. However, comparing cars to guns is apples and oranges and we have a lot of threads about that and it is off topic.