Ethics question.....223 for deer?

[gedenke]

I know this will probably turn into a flaming punch in the eye, but here goes:

My sister wants to come down and hunt with me this year, which I think is great. But, here's the problem, she wants to bring her AR-15. Now, I know that many, many deer have been killed w/ .22 cal rifles, but I personally think she needs to bring more gun. Of course, with a well placed shot, a .223 will certainly kill a deer, but with her limited experience, a perfect shot may not be the case.

So, how do I talk her into NOT bringing a semi-auto, small caliber "black rifle" hunting?

[Sportdog]

There are tons of threads on this board about how the caliber doesn't matter, it's where you hit em. So, if she is comfortable with her rifle and uses some of the 22 caliber bullets designed for larger game, she should be good to go. I agree with you that something bigger should be used but that's just my opinion. Have her read this thread and it may change her mind.

[scottycoyote]

i agree with you. To me, you owe it to the game you hunt to dispatch them as clean as you can. I know its all about shot placement, but a bad shot with enough gun can sometimes make up for it. I guess i would just tell her how bad you (and she) would feel if she hits a deer and you have to run it for hours to finish or even worse, it gets away.

[cbm1948]

Does her "black rifle" have a scope, this will help with shot placement and hopefully a drop dead kill. Keep shooting ranges under 100yd for maximum energy on target and a heavier bullet will help some. A lot of deer are killed every year with a 22 cal rifle and a lot of wounded that are never found happen also. Tough call good luck.
Clint

[Capp35]

I have a Remington 700 xx bull barrel and a Leupold V 24x scope.

Shot a doe in the eye at a 150 yards one time.
Was hunting for coons and bobcats at the time, when she came out. She dropped like a rock.

Generally though I would say no to it, if they are inexperenced.

[Big_Charlie]

You had better make sure that .223 is legal for big game hunting in your area. It is illegal in a number of states. Personally, I wouldn't risk wounding the deer vs. a more likely kill shot with a larger, heavier bullet. The .223 is much more of a varmint round than a big game round. If she wants to hunt with an AR platform, Remington is making the R-25 in 7mm-08, .243, and .308. It can be the perfect excuse for her to buy a new rifle!

Big Charlie

[gedenke]

Does she have a scope....no.

Is the .223 legal.....yes, but 5 round mag or less.

Sounds like most of you think like I do, but she's pretty stubborn and set in her ways. So, I'll try one more time to convince her, but if that doesn't work, I'll load up some heavier bullets for her and stress the "close shot or no shot" thing and hope for the best. Worst case scenario, I'll put a follow-on shot in with my 6.5mm.

Oh, yeah, any suggestions for handloading .223 for deer? Bullet/powder combos?

[ringworm]

i would simply say that unless she brings a more conservative benign and simpler rifle she wouldnt be hunting with me.
The last thing i want is to be seen walking in the woods with rambo.

[Art Eatman]

The issue , seems to me, is neither the rifle nor the cartridge, nearly so much as the aforementioned relative inexperience of gedenke's sister.

One who has shot a lot from field positions, and who is an experienced hunter who can control the adrenalin, can likely do well with an AR and the .223.

Offhand, it doesn't really sound like Sis fills that bill...

[Buzzcook]

How many turns in the barrel of the Ar-15? How long is the barrel?
What kind of range? What kind of terrain?

Hornady has a 64 and 75 grain hollow point iirc, I'd look into them.

[wolfsgrin]

Well to me sounds like you should let her shoot your 6.5. Not sure about yours but mine shoots fine and has no more kick then her AR does.

[dahermit]

I know this will probably turn into a flaming punch in the eye, but here goes:

My sister wants to come down and hunt with me this year, which I think is great. But, here's the problem, she wants to bring her AR-15. Now, I know that many, many deer have been killed w/ .22 cal rifles, but I personally think she needs to bring more gun. Of course, with a well placed shot, a .223 will certainly kill a deer, but with her limited experience, a perfect shot may not be the case.

So, how do I talk her into NOT bringing a semi-auto, small caliber "black rifle" hunting?

I own two .223's. A Colt H-Bar competition target, and a little Interarms bolt action. My only concern with you sister using the Black Rifle is its weight. My H-Bar might be too heavy for her to hold for a sure shot. However, the little Interarms would be a snap...it is like holding shooting a .22 rim fire.
Is her black rifle too heavy for her to hold, is the question.
A "Rambo" looking rifle is reminiscent of the anti-gun "assault rifle", crowd.

[SlowIsSmoothIsFast]

We wouldn't want her flinching because she's not used to more gun. Just tell her to be careful about shot placement and not rush herself. My fellow hunters have lost gut-shot deer that they shot with 30-06 ballistics tips. If ya miss, ya miss.

I went hunting with my dad at 9 or 10 and started carrying a .223 at 11. Then and every year since then I've got a deer. Five of them with the .223. Never missed. One shot was a deer at well over 400 yards I hit him in the spine with the .223. Not necessarily where I was aiming, it was only a 4x scope too, sooo... not the safest shot I've taken. Now, using the .270 with SST's they run just as far, heck further it seams, even though their hearts are liquid. Liquihearts

But seriously, if you miss.... YOU FREAKING MISS .... And if she's not a great shot she needs to limit the range she shoots from anyways.

It was an AR-15. Next up was a .270 and I was only 11 so my dad had me using that first. It was plenty light too, one year a friend wounded a deer and it came over to our stand. We got out to look for it, it got up about 20 years away in the bush and ran for it, I popped the AR-15 up and could barely shoulder it I was so small and had so much clothing on, but I put one though it's heart, and the next second my dad put on through the lungs with a .308 and it dropped. And guess what. Not only was it just gutshot by our friend, but it had a wound on it's leg from when our other friend hit it with his bow weeks before! Poor guy got shot by 4 different people. At least my dad and I are blessed with some wikid skillzz. XD

[gedenke]

You all make very good sense. She's in the Army Guard, so she has had some training with that type/caliber rifle (not sure what thier training req's are) so I'm pretty sure she can hit a paper target in a controlled environment, but she's never hunted before. I guess that's where I come in, to show her the ropes, so to speak.

wolf....good point, letting her use my rifle would definately put my mind at ease. But, like SlowIsSmooth pointed out, we don't want her to be gun-shy.

buzz....not sure on the specifics of her gun, but I'm assuming it's relatively run-of-the-mill. As for the terrain/range, we have lots of hilly, thick brush here in Oregon, so most of the shots I get are within 100-150yds.

[NickySantoro]

FWIW, my BIL took a spike with my Mini and a 64 gr PowerPoint at about 60 yards. The shot was just behind the shoulder. The spike took two steps, quivered, then dropped like a stone.
Any time you are hunting with a marginal caliber like .223, distance, shot placement, and round performance become more critical.
That being said, my preference is 30-06.

[jmr40]

I think a lot depends on the deer in your area. I have seen deer killed here that weighed 50 lbs field dressed. A 150 lb deer is a big deer here, and I would have no problem using a .223 with good ammo on a deer at any range I felt I could hit it.

[shomstead]

Sounds like she needs a new upper for Christmas.

If she insists make sure she is using a good round and not some paper puncher round.

[Pat-inCO]

In Colorado it would be easy. Nothing less than a .24 is allowed.

[MeekAndMild]

I had to look at your location before answering. If you live in Southern Oregon then your deer are going to run a lot bigger than southern whitetails. A lot of the posters who are successfully shooting deer with a .223 live in places where you can easily shoot a 90-120 pound spike and I really doubt you're going to find such small critters there.

Even in the deep south, having harvested deer which weigh less than 100 pounds I think a .243 (6mm) is the minimum caliber. If I lived up north I'd probably change that rule of thumb to the 6.5 mm.

SO... maybe you need to get her an early Christmas present, a 6.5 Grendel upper for her AR.

[wyobohunter]

I don't think I'd take my sis hunting if she was so in love with one particular gun that she'd knowingly risk wounding/losing an animal against the advise of a more experienced hunter just to use her favorite toy. To me the hunting experience has less to do with the gun and more to do with the animal/pursuit. If she can't understand this, maybe she just doesn't have the right mindset for hunting.

[jrothWA]

64gr Powerpoint .223 ammo, its made for deer hunting.

[whiskey]

I am fine with shooting deer with a .223.

What I think you should do for your inexperianced sister is hunt with her. Sit or walk with her and help make good decisions on her first hunt. If you are worried about the .223 then let her use your gun. It is important that her first hunt go well so that she wants to continue hunting.

[gedenke]

Wow, lots of great replies on this one...thanks guys!

As for the deer size here, they're Blacktails and are not as big as Muleys, but definitely a little thicker than a southern Whitetail. On the other hand, my buck from last year was just over 200lbs, so you never know.

On the issue of telling her to "forget it" if she wants to bring the .223, well I won't do that. She's in the same boat as a lot of us where she doesn't have the luxury to just go out buy a new gun at will. She wants to learn how to hunt and I feel obligated to give her that opportunity. Besides, if I don't show her the right way, someone else might show her the "wrong way".

I think whiskey hit the nail on the head in suggesting that I do my part and teach her the proper way to hunt the way so many have done for all of us over our lifetimes. Hopefully, I can help her not make the mistakes I've made. I'll offer her my 6.5mm to use if she's comfortable with it and do my best to prepare her for the hunt.

[hogdogs]

Personally I would hesitate to use a .223 but would not hesitate to use a .243. Why is that? I doubt the two hundredths of an inch really matter much. With a well placed shot either would do well, I am sure, in the 120-160 pound deer I have available. I bet you could just about point and shoot with a .300 win mag and knock down the same deer. I use a /30-30 so I feel confident I have a large area to hit and get a clean kill.
Brent

[MeekAndMild]

I doubt the two hundredths of an inch really matter much.

I could be wrong here but this is my impression. For similar caliber and construction bullets I don't think the diameter difference is as important as the projectile weight to affect how deep they will penetrate before expanding and losing energy. Biggest soft pointed .223 bullet I've ever seen sold at the local hardware store was 70 grains but you can easily get 100 grain or even 110 grain 6 mm bullets.