can these demands be met with a blackpowder rifle ?

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 08:02 PM

With a bullet weight between 9 - 10 grams ( 138 - 154.3 Grains ),
minimum 2700 joule (1991.4 lb lbf/Foot pound force) at 100m (328 feet).
With a bullet weighting over 10 grams (154.3 Grains ), minimum 2200 joule (1622.6lb lbf/Foot pound force) at 100m. (328 Feet )

That is the minimum legal energy delivered needed to hunt big game
Moose (Alces alces), Red Deer (Cervus elaphus),reindeer (Rangifer
tarandus) ) in Norway.

The minimum limit for :
European Roe Deer (Capreolus capreolus)
Eurasian lynx (Lynx lynx)
wolverine (Gulo gulo)
European Beaver (Castor fiber)
Is 980 Joule at 100 meters (722 lb lbf Foot pound force)
Only expanding bullets are allowed.

Brian Pfleuger · November 13, 2008, 08:09 PM

154 grain is mighty small for a muzzleloader bullet. For instance, it appears that the smallest made by Hornady is 180 grain.

I'd say that the only way to meet those numbers would be about a 280grain bullet with a muzzle velocity near 1900fps, even then you'd be close to or below the minimum energy level at 100m.

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 08:18 PM

Are you trying to get as small as possible, or just cruizin for information?

Seems a lot under-gunned for a moose hunt.

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 08:23 PM

Well, those are the specs mentioned by law here i norway..
And there is some public confusion and debate around blackpowder hunting here in Norway.

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 08:31 PM

But there is nothing saying that you can't use something that is larger, right? If it says minimum, then you can go bigger. Maybe I'm not understanding the question. But...

You could try to find an expanding bullet for the first rifle on this page.

http://www.buffalobillsshootingstore...eloaders3.html

Or try to find a ML in a .357 caliber. You could get that low with one of those.

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 08:40 PM

Yes, you are right..

Maybe these are up to the job ?

That is Eley .500 BPE " Blackpowder Express", 3" casing lenght , 136 Grains Blackpowder 340 grains "Copper Tubed" bullet.

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 08:44 PM

Does it specify "Black Powder"? Or Muzzleloader? Never seen one say Black Powder.

But that cartridge should meet the minimum requirement.

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 08:47 PM

it is forbidden to use muzzleloading guns to hunt here in norway.

Those are clearly labeled Black Powder..

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 08:53 PM

WOW. Thats interesting. Sorry I wasn't aware of it. Knowing that, my searching was way off base. when you say black powder, for me, a muzzleloader pops into mind.

Any good reasoning behind it? Or is the Gov just trying to limit hunting tools?

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 08:58 PM

I think it has something to do with the fact that it takes so long time to reload a muzzleloader.. Somethimes a quick follow up shot are needed, so only cartrige weapons are allowed.

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 09:04 PM

Do you have a rifle that will shoot those cartridges you posted? got a pic?

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 09:18 PM

No, i dont have that yet..
But if it is possible to meet the minimal demands of energy with a good margin, and DOCUMENT/ PROVE it.. Then i will see what i can get my hands on..

To get a hunting licence for game in Norway, you firtst have to pass a test kalled "jegerprøve", it is a test to prove that you know the regulations and can tell the difference on several spieces of birds/ducks, and how animals react when they are hurt by bullets. If you pass the "jegerprøve" you can hunt birds with a shotgun, and small game like Mountain Hare (Lepus timidus) and European Hare or Brown Hare (Lepus europaeus) and Red Fox (Vulpes vulpes).

If you pass that test, you have to shoot minimum 100 shots with the rifle you are going to use on a shooting range to get a licence for:

Moose (Alces alces)
Red Deer (Cervus elaphus) ( can be hunted using a shotgun )
reindeer (Rangifer tarandus)
European Roe Deer (Capreolus capreolus) ( can be hunted using a shotgun )
Eurasian lynx (Lynx lynx)
wolverine (Gulo gulo)
European Beaver (Castor fiber)

The 100 shots on the range needs to be documented. The " 100 bullets test " needs to be done before every hunting season.

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 09:26 PM

Holy Crap. They really don't want anyone to hunt there. That seems excessive. So if you wanted to shoot a 7mm, your going to spend over 100 dollars in just ammo. Or is the black powder the only type of weapon allowed?

I think those shells you posted will plenty do the trick.

Visaman · November 13, 2008, 09:36 PM

Yes, it can be expensive since you need to use the ammo you are going to use to hunt for 100 shots..
On target practice it is legal to use surplus military ammo.

Any rifle that shoots cartridges and meets the demanded energy levels are allowed.

It is not legal to hunt with a bow/xbow..
It is legal to shoot fish with a bow, northern pike ( Esox lucius ) is shot/hunted some with bows around here. You need to pay a fishing fee/lisence for that. You dont need a firearm licensce to get a bow here in Norway.

wpcexpert · November 13, 2008, 10:18 PM

I've done quite a bit of bowfishing. I love it. Can't shoot game fish though.(Bass, perch, crappie) It's a lot of fun.

Visaman · November 14, 2008, 10:50 AM

They did say on a norwegian forum that a 650grs bullet with BC=0,2 meets the required energy at 1200ft/s.

A 50-140 Sharps should deliver a 638grs bullet at 1400ft/s and is thereby whithin the specs..

Buzzcook · November 14, 2008, 08:11 PM

I suspect you could get that kind of performance out of the older Mauser's such as the 11mm. I suspect you could find a .45-70 load that will meet those specs. The rifle you shoot it out of will make a difference as to how hot you can load those.

alistaire · November 15, 2008, 01:32 PM

Why do you need a black powder gun to hunt?

On second thought, have you considered a hunting vacation to the USA? Some states have a special black powder season (muzzle loaders only) as well as a special bow season.

T. O'Heir · November 16, 2008, 04:45 AM

Hi. You won't get 1991.4 ft-lbs out of any BP muzzle loader. A .58 calibre, 566 grain lead, bullet, using 144 grains of Pyrodex by volume, gives 1455 ft-lbs at 100 yards, according to my Lyman BP loading manual.
"...forbidden to use muzzleloading guns to hunt here in Norway..." Your BP question is kind of moot then.
You asking about Norwegian hunting laws or cartridge specs in general? Cartridge specs we can help you with, but not likely your hunting regs. They're likely on-line though.
"...tell the difference on several spieces of birds/ducks..." Ducks at a distance. We have that as part of the Hunter's Safety course, here in Ontario, Canada too. Even if you have no intention to hunt ducks.
It really is a great thing that you asked us though. It's always good to hear from other places and at least try to help.

November 13, 2008, 08:02 PM	#1
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	can these demands be met with a blackpowder rifle ? With a bullet weight between 9 - 10 grams ( 138 - 154.3 Grains ), minimum 2700 joule (1991.4 lb lbf/Foot pound force) at 100m (328 feet). With a bullet weighting over 10 grams (154.3 Grains ), minimum 2200 joule (1622.6lb lbf/Foot pound force) at 100m. (328 Feet ) That is the minimum legal energy delivered needed to hunt big game Moose (Alces alces), Red Deer (Cervus elaphus),reindeer (Rangifer tarandus) ) in Norway. The minimum limit for : European Roe Deer (Capreolus capreolus) Eurasian lynx (Lynx lynx) wolverine (Gulo gulo) European Beaver (Castor fiber) Is 980 Joule at 100 meters (722 lb lbf Foot pound force) Only expanding bullets are allowed. Last edited by Visaman; November 13, 2008 at 08:52 PM.

November 13, 2008, 08:09 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	154 grain is mighty small for a muzzleloader bullet. For instance, it appears that the smallest made by Hornady is 180 grain. I'd say that the only way to meet those numbers would be about a 280grain bullet with a muzzle velocity near 1900fps, even then you'd be close to or below the minimum energy level at 100m. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

November 13, 2008, 08:18 PM	#3
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	Are you trying to get as small as possible, or just cruizin for information? Seems a lot under-gunned for a moose hunt. __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 13, 2008, 08:31 PM	#5
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	But there is nothing saying that you can't use something that is larger, right? If it says minimum, then you can go bigger. Maybe I'm not understanding the question. But... You could try to find an expanding bullet for the first rifle on this page. http://www.buffalobillsshootingstore...eloaders3.html Or try to find a ML in a .357 caliber. You could get that low with one of those. __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 13, 2008, 08:44 PM	#7
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	Does it specify "Black Powder"? Or Muzzleloader? Never seen one say Black Powder. But that cartridge should meet the minimum requirement. __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 13, 2008, 08:23 PM	#4
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	Well, those are the specs mentioned by law here i norway.. And there is some public confusion and debate around blackpowder hunting here in Norway.

November 13, 2008, 08:40 PM	#6
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	Yes, you are right.. Maybe these are up to the job ? That is Eley .500 BPE " Blackpowder Express", 3" casing lenght , 136 Grains Blackpowder 340 grains "Copper Tubed" bullet.

November 13, 2008, 08:47 PM	#8
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	it is forbidden to use muzzleloading guns to hunt here in norway. Those are clearly labeled Black Powder..

November 13, 2008, 08:53 PM	#9
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	WOW. Thats interesting. Sorry I wasn't aware of it. Knowing that, my searching was way off base. when you say black powder, for me, a muzzleloader pops into mind. Any good reasoning behind it? Or is the Gov just trying to limit hunting tools? __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 13, 2008, 08:58 PM	#10
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	I think it has something to do with the fact that it takes so long time to reload a muzzleloader.. Somethimes a quick follow up shot are needed, so only cartrige weapons are allowed.

November 13, 2008, 09:04 PM	#11
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	Do you have a rifle that will shoot those cartridges you posted? got a pic? __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 13, 2008, 09:18 PM	#12
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	No, i dont have that yet.. But if it is possible to meet the minimal demands of energy with a good margin, and DOCUMENT/ PROVE it.. Then i will see what i can get my hands on.. To get a hunting licence for game in Norway, you firtst have to pass a test kalled "jegerprøve", it is a test to prove that you know the regulations and can tell the difference on several spieces of birds/ducks, and how animals react when they are hurt by bullets. If you pass the "jegerprøve" you can hunt birds with a shotgun, and small game like Mountain Hare (Lepus timidus) and European Hare or Brown Hare (Lepus europaeus) and Red Fox (Vulpes vulpes). If you pass that test, you have to shoot minimum 100 shots with the rifle you are going to use on a shooting range to get a licence for: Moose (Alces alces) Red Deer (Cervus elaphus) ( can be hunted using a shotgun ) reindeer (Rangifer tarandus) European Roe Deer (Capreolus capreolus) ( can be hunted using a shotgun ) Eurasian lynx (Lynx lynx) wolverine (Gulo gulo) European Beaver (Castor fiber) The 100 shots on the range needs to be documented. The " 100 bullets test " needs to be done before every hunting season. Last edited by Visaman; November 13, 2008 at 09:44 PM.

November 13, 2008, 09:26 PM	#13
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	Holy Crap. They really don't want anyone to hunt there. That seems excessive. So if you wanted to shoot a 7mm, your going to spend over 100 dollars in just ammo. Or is the black powder the only type of weapon allowed? I think those shells you posted will plenty do the trick. __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 13, 2008, 09:36 PM	#14
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	Yes, it can be expensive since you need to use the ammo you are going to use to hunt for 100 shots.. On target practice it is legal to use surplus military ammo. Any rifle that shoots cartridges and meets the demanded energy levels are allowed. It is not legal to hunt with a bow/xbow.. It is legal to shoot fish with a bow, northern pike ( Esox lucius ) is shot/hunted some with bows around here. You need to pay a fishing fee/lisence for that. You dont need a firearm licensce to get a bow here in Norway.

November 13, 2008, 10:18 PM	#15
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	I've done quite a bit of bowfishing. I love it. Can't shoot game fish though.(Bass, perch, crappie) It's a lot of fun. __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

November 14, 2008, 10:50 AM	#16
Visaman Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 302	They did say on a norwegian forum that a 650grs bullet with BC=0,2 meets the required energy at 1200ft/s. A 50-140 Sharps should deliver a 638grs bullet at 1400ft/s and is thereby whithin the specs..

November 14, 2008, 08:11 PM	#17
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	I suspect you could get that kind of performance out of the older Mauser's such as the 11mm. I suspect you could find a .45-70 load that will meet those specs. The rifle you shoot it out of will make a difference as to how hot you can load those.

November 15, 2008, 01:32 PM	#18
alistaire Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2008 Posts: 191	Why do you need a black powder gun to hunt? On second thought, have you considered a hunting vacation to the USA? Some states have a special black powder season (muzzle loaders only) as well as a special bow season.

November 16, 2008, 04:45 AM	#19
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Hi. You won't get 1991.4 ft-lbs out of any BP muzzle loader. A .58 calibre, 566 grain lead, bullet, using 144 grains of Pyrodex by volume, gives 1455 ft-lbs at 100 yards, according to my Lyman BP loading manual. "...forbidden to use muzzleloading guns to hunt here in Norway..." Your BP question is kind of moot then. You asking about Norwegian hunting laws or cartridge specs in general? Cartridge specs we can help you with, but not likely your hunting regs. They're likely on-line though. "...tell the difference on several spieces of birds/ducks..." Ducks at a distance. We have that as part of the Hunter's Safety course, here in Ontario, Canada too. Even if you have no intention to hunt ducks. It really is a great thing that you asked us though. It's always good to hear from other places and at least try to help. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!