Long Distance Self-Defense Rifle

jwalker497 · February 24, 2009, 10:56 PM

Assuming #@&% hit the fan and one needed a defensive rile, please help me find a relativley Cheap ($750 & under) Semi-Auto Rifle that would be a good for SD purposes. I emphasize cheap and prefer it to be $500 and under but would be willing to go to $750. This rifle would not be for hunting, purely Self Defense. I don't really know too much about rifles aside from a few Bolt action Deer rifles. Please let me know what claiber I should be considering and what type of capacity, features, etc I need to look for. I welcome your reccomendations. Thanks, in advance.

Webleymkv · February 24, 2009, 11:05 PM

What types of ranges are you worried about? If you're looking at 300yd or less then your intermediat calibers such as 5.56x45/.223 and 7.62x39 would be adequate and a rifle such as a SKS, AK-47, or AR-15 would be entirely appropriate. If you think you may need to take a longer shot than that, a more powerful round such as 7.62x51/.308, 30-06, 8x57 Mauser, or 7.62x54R is really what is needed. In that case, a Saiga .308 is about the only rifle I can think of that is semi-auto, has high-capacity magazines available, and is comfortably within your price range that is easily found. Other rifles to consider would be the Browning BAR or Remington 750 but these don't have high-caps and may still be at the upper end of your price range.

jwalker497 · February 24, 2009, 11:09 PM

I would imagine that 300yd or less would be what I had in mind, I see no need for more range than that. So I guess I should be looking for an a SKS, AK-47, or AR-15???

**OldMarksman** · February 24, 2009, 11:17 PM

You should first familiarize yourself thoroughly with the relevant laws in your state and consult with a knowledgeable criminal trial attorney.

In most SD training, it is emphasized that justifiability of homicide will generally exist when the distance from the attacker is roughly seven yards of you or less, or when the attacker is in the act of breaking into your occupied dwelling.

Ask your attorney what would be required to get you cleared of murder in a 300 yard shooting. He may be able to hypothesize a case of justifiability, but you had better learn all you can first.

jwalker497 · February 24, 2009, 11:20 PM

This is not what I am asking. I am looking for a cheap semi auto Rifle with some range as opposed to a shotgun.

Catfishman · February 24, 2009, 11:38 PM

AK-47 is the only thing I can think of that meets all of the criteria. They have gone through the roof recently. You could build one legally for less than $200 this time last year and buy one off the shelf for less than $400. But now I don't think you can find parts kits anymore and the best price I have seen in a store is $660.

colostomyclown · February 24, 2009, 11:40 PM

the pruice on aks has skyrocketed as such to put them in the range of mini 14s...in which case i'd go for mini 14. pretty simple to take down and fairly rugged. theyre "ugly" too by a lot of people's definitions...which i like!

jwalker497 · February 24, 2009, 11:42 PM

The Mini 14 and SKS seem to be popular choices what are the pros & Cons of the 2 different calibers & which would be more effective for SD?

Catfishman · February 24, 2009, 11:45 PM

I have never fired a mini-14 but I have heard they have reliability problems. Is there anything to this? AKs always shoot but I can't hit very well with them.

Swampghost · February 24, 2009, 11:53 PM

I have a Remington Mod 742 in 30-06 that I would part with. It will cloverleaf 3 rounds @ 100 yds. In Like New condition.

Catfishman · February 24, 2009, 11:55 PM

The two calibers are as different as night and day. But they are similar in power. The 7.62x39 is cheap and penetrates obstacles very well but its accurate range is limited by its lower velocity and the weapons they are fired through. The .223 is very fast and accurate but its light weight (55 grains) makes it a poor penetrater. The AK-47 is completely reliable but the AR-15 has to be clean to work well and I saw one FTF for no apparent reason. For the money I prefer the AK-47.

kwells6 · February 24, 2009, 11:56 PM

for the .308 semi auto, think Cetme... spanish made, similar to the H&K 91

kmullins · February 24, 2009, 11:57 PM

jwalker497, here is a post from a different forum (gunandgame.com), where a user describes some of the differences between the SKS and AK-47 -

"The SKS and AK 47 are totally different guns. Real AK-47s are assault rifles, with detachable 30 round box magazines, and pistol grips. The SKS is a semiautomatic cabine with a fixed 10 round magazine and a conventional stock. The action is also different; the AK uses rotary bolt and the SKS has a tilting bolt. No part is interchangeable. Both guns use the same ammo, 7.62x39. When people in this forum talk about AK-47s, they really mean semiautomatic versions of the AKM rifle, which is the improved AK-47."

And also, the SKS is an older model. Depending on where you live, an SKS may be the only option for you. Hope this helps some.

Big Bill · February 25, 2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

a cheap semi auto Rifle with some range...

When you find one, please let me know. Thanks!

Buzzcook · February 25, 2009, 01:50 AM

Think it through, long range is 800yds and up. That's 2400ft, 0.454545455 miles, or put another way it's 0.8 seconds at 3000fps.

That's far enough away to find cover and remove yourself from danger even if you're a slow person. That is self defense.

At that distance shooting back is not self defense, it's mutual sniping.

Swampghost · February 25, 2009, 01:59 AM

Barrett .416, 2500 yds. yep 1-1/2 miles. I'm guessing that it's well over your budget.

Scorch · February 25, 2009, 02:18 AM

For a shooting to be considered "in self-defense", you have to be in imminent danger of death of severe injury, so unless you have irked a member of Delta Force you are talking about very short distance, like 20 ft or less. Get a 9mm carbine or a 12 gauge if you want a long gun, or get a handgun.

NWCP · February 25, 2009, 03:02 AM

I beleive they refer to the shooting of intruders at 300 yards as hunting... not self defense.

You might be hard pressed these days to find a decent semi auto in 7.62, or .223 for $750, or under. As stated above you can get a 12GA high cap for a reasonable price still. It would be all you need to clean house so to speak. I keep a Mossberg 500 12GA handy. My semi auto long guns would punch holes clean through my house and a couple of neighbors homes as well. That's not a good thing as it upsets the neighbors. A 9mm handgun is always close by. That's a little safer in a suburban environment. JMHO

Bartholomew Roberts · February 25, 2009, 08:09 AM

At your price point, I would look at the Saiga rifles, which can be had in either 5.56, 7.62x39 or 7.62x51. It is a good, solid, reliable action at a good price and it is accurate enough for defensive use, hunting or plinking.

Later on, if you decide you wish to "evil it up" some, you can add parts as you can afford them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfishman

but the AR-15 has to be clean to work well

I've got about 1,000 rounds suppressed (which increases the filthiness dramatically) through my AR15 with no cleaning currently and it is working just fine (fired every round without problem and reloaded the next). I would suggest that the key to making an AR15 work well is not cleanliness as much as it is ample lubrication. An AR will run wet & dirty; but not dry & dirty.

Lloyd Smale · February 25, 2009, 08:30 AM

remington 742 with a 18 inch barrel in 308 or 06 would be about the only thing i could think of in that price range.

garryc · February 25, 2009, 08:39 AM

This would be a case where you would use cover and concealment or avoidance and escape. At 300 yards you'de likely be dealing with a larger group, and you likely would die. If it was a single person then he would likely simply shoot you before you see him and then you would die. If I was a bad man and wanted your stuff, seeing you at 300 yards, I would simply kill you before you had a chance to respond, or even see me.

That's the most effort I'm going to expend in a Mad Max situation

Double Naught Spy · February 25, 2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

In most SD training, it is emphasized that justifiability of homicide will generally exist when the distance from the attacker is roughly seven yards of you or less, or when the attacker is in the act of breaking into your occupied dwelling.

Quote:

For a shooting to be considered "in self-defense", you have to be in imminent danger of death of severe injury, so unless you have irked a member of Delta Force you are talking about very short distance, like 20 ft or less.

More like the the standard is that the opposition has intent, opportunity, and ability, but the OP wasn't asking for legal advice. While most self defense situations are close range, do we really need to go through the whole mess again about all the various situations over the years that occurred at distances over 20-21 feet? There are situations where the threat is at longer distances and there is nothing wrong with a person who wants to prepare for self defense at those longer ranges.

kraigwy · February 25, 2009, 09:29 AM

Never could understand the concept of Long Range Self Defense.

dannyb · February 25, 2009, 10:02 AM

From his description, I think that the OP is more interested in HD or even homestead (house and land) defense rather than purely self defense. Other than SHTF (which was implied in the OP), a situation of an isolated area with spread out houses hit in sequence by some kind of gang would not necessarily require waiting until they're 20 feet away from you. Of course that situation smacks more of Hollywood than reality. Then again, we saw Clint Eastwood use a Garand to run off a gang in Gran Torino,

and those homes were awfully close together for deploying a 30-06. Hollywood will get you into trouble if you delude yourself into thinking it's real.

Rifleman 173 · February 25, 2009, 10:24 AM

The mini-14 is infamous for being ammo sensitive and having problems with accuracy. As the gun heats up from shooting the point of impact rises versus your point of aim. It also has trouble with foreign made ammo and ammo that has harder primers. I stay away from mini-14s as much as possible.

Also keep in mind that any rifle you get you should think about mounting a scope on it. The scope doesn't have to be anything expensive or fancy, just decent. A good 4 X or 6 X scope enhances your over all accuracy without turning your rifle into a sniper rifle of limited range.

If it is legal in your area, my suggestion is a good scoped AK type rifle with a side mounted scope system on it. Avoid dust cover or machine cover mounted scopes on the rifle because they are less reliable. I would go with the 7.62 X 39 ammo for the most efficiency over other calibers. The 7.62 X 39 ammo is a bit easier to obtain than other calibers.

February 24, 2009, 10:56 PM	#1
jwalker497 Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2008 Posts: 291	Long Distance Self-Defense Rifle Assuming #@&% hit the fan and one needed a defensive rile, please help me find a relativley Cheap ($750 & under) Semi-Auto Rifle that would be a good for SD purposes. I emphasize cheap and prefer it to be $500 and under but would be willing to go to $750. This rifle would not be for hunting, purely Self Defense. I don't really know too much about rifles aside from a few Bolt action Deer rifles. Please let me know what claiber I should be considering and what type of capacity, features, etc I need to look for. I welcome your reccomendations. Thanks, in advance.

February 24, 2009, 11:53 PM	#10
Swampghost Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: Florida, east coast Posts: 2,106	I have a Remington Mod 742 in 30-06 that I would part with. It will cloverleaf 3 rounds @ 100 yds. In Like New condition. __________________ NRA Patron Member

February 24, 2009, 11:56 PM	#12
kwells6 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 437	for the .308 semi auto, think Cetme... spanish made, similar to the H&K 91 __________________ "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

February 25, 2009, 01:59 AM	#16
Swampghost Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: Florida, east coast Posts: 2,106	Barrett .416, 2500 yds. yep 1-1/2 miles. I'm guessing that it's well over your budget. __________________ NRA Patron Member

February 25, 2009, 02:18 AM	#17
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	For a shooting to be considered "in self-defense", you have to be in imminent danger of death of severe injury, so unless you have irked a member of Delta Force you are talking about very short distance, like 20 ft or less. Get a 9mm carbine or a 12 gauge if you want a long gun, or get a handgun. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

February 24, 2009, 11:05 PM	#2
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	What types of ranges are you worried about? If you're looking at 300yd or less then your intermediat calibers such as 5.56x45/.223 and 7.62x39 would be adequate and a rifle such as a SKS, AK-47, or AR-15 would be entirely appropriate. If you think you may need to take a longer shot than that, a more powerful round such as 7.62x51/.308, 30-06, 8x57 Mauser, or 7.62x54R is really what is needed. In that case, a Saiga .308 is about the only rifle I can think of that is semi-auto, has high-capacity magazines available, and is comfortably within your price range that is easily found. Other rifles to consider would be the Browning BAR or Remington 750 but these don't have high-caps and may still be at the upper end of your price range.

February 24, 2009, 11:09 PM	#3
jwalker497 Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2008 Posts: 291	I would imagine that 300yd or less would be what I had in mind, I see no need for more range than that. So I guess I should be looking for an a SKS, AK-47, or AR-15???

February 24, 2009, 11:17 PM	#4
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	You should first familiarize yourself thoroughly with the relevant laws in your state and consult with a knowledgeable criminal trial attorney. In most SD training, it is emphasized that justifiability of homicide will generally exist when the distance from the attacker is roughly seven yards of you or less, or when the attacker is in the act of breaking into your occupied dwelling. Ask your attorney what would be required to get you cleared of murder in a 300 yard shooting. He may be able to hypothesize a case of justifiability, but you had better learn all you can first.

February 24, 2009, 11:20 PM	#5
jwalker497 Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2008 Posts: 291	This is not what I am asking. I am looking for a cheap semi auto Rifle with some range as opposed to a shotgun.

February 24, 2009, 11:38 PM	#6
Catfishman Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Mississippi Posts: 727	AK-47 is the only thing I can think of that meets all of the criteria. They have gone through the roof recently. You could build one legally for less than $200 this time last year and buy one off the shelf for less than $400. But now I don't think you can find parts kits anymore and the best price I have seen in a store is $660.

February 24, 2009, 11:40 PM	#7
colostomyclown Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Posts: 613	the pruice on aks has skyrocketed as such to put them in the range of mini 14s...in which case i'd go for mini 14. pretty simple to take down and fairly rugged. theyre "ugly" too by a lot of people's definitions...which i like!

February 24, 2009, 11:42 PM	#8
jwalker497 Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2008 Posts: 291	The Mini 14 and SKS seem to be popular choices what are the pros & Cons of the 2 different calibers & which would be more effective for SD?

February 24, 2009, 11:45 PM	#9
Catfishman Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Mississippi Posts: 727	I have never fired a mini-14 but I have heard they have reliability problems. Is there anything to this? AKs always shoot but I can't hit very well with them.

February 24, 2009, 11:55 PM	#11
Catfishman Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Mississippi Posts: 727	The two calibers are as different as night and day. But they are similar in power. The 7.62x39 is cheap and penetrates obstacles very well but its accurate range is limited by its lower velocity and the weapons they are fired through. The .223 is very fast and accurate but its light weight (55 grains) makes it a poor penetrater. The AK-47 is completely reliable but the AR-15 has to be clean to work well and I saw one FTF for no apparent reason. For the money I prefer the AK-47.

February 24, 2009, 11:57 PM	#13
kmullins Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 250	jwalker497, here is a post from a different forum (gunandgame.com), where a user describes some of the differences between the SKS and AK-47 - "The SKS and AK 47 are totally different guns. Real AK-47s are assault rifles, with detachable 30 round box magazines, and pistol grips. The SKS is a semiautomatic cabine with a fixed 10 round magazine and a conventional stock. The action is also different; the AK uses rotary bolt and the SKS has a tilting bolt. No part is interchangeable. Both guns use the same ammo, 7.62x39. When people in this forum talk about AK-47s, they really mean semiautomatic versions of the AKM rifle, which is the improved AK-47." And also, the SKS is an older model. Depending on where you live, an SKS may be the only option for you. Hope this helps some.

February 25, 2009, 01:50 AM	#15
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	Think it through, long range is 800yds and up. That's 2400ft, 0.454545455 miles, or put another way it's 0.8 seconds at 3000fps. That's far enough away to find cover and remove yourself from danger even if you're a slow person. That is self defense. At that distance shooting back is not self defense, it's mutual sniping.

February 25, 2009, 03:02 AM	#18
NWCP Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2006 Posts: 1,903	I beleive they refer to the shooting of intruders at 300 yards as hunting... not self defense. You might be hard pressed these days to find a decent semi auto in 7.62, or .223 for $750, or under. As stated above you can get a 12GA high cap for a reasonable price still. It would be all you need to clean house so to speak. I keep a Mossberg 500 12GA handy. My semi auto long guns would punch holes clean through my house and a couple of neighbors homes as well. That's not a good thing as it upsets the neighbors. A 9mm handgun is always close by. That's a little safer in a suburban environment. JMHO Last edited by NWCP; February 25, 2009 at 03:08 AM.

February 25, 2009, 08:30 AM	#20
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	remington 742 with a 18 inch barrel in 308 or 06 would be about the only thing i could think of in that price range.

February 25, 2009, 08:39 AM	#21
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	This would be a case where you would use cover and concealment or avoidance and escape. At 300 yards you'de likely be dealing with a larger group, and you likely would die. If it was a single person then he would likely simply shoot you before you see him and then you would die. If I was a bad man and wanted your stuff, seeing you at 300 yards, I would simply kill you before you had a chance to respond, or even see me. That's the most effort I'm going to expend in a Mad Max situation

February 25, 2009, 09:29 AM	#23
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Never could understand the concept of Long Range Self Defense. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 25, 2009, 10:02 AM	#24
dannyb Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2008 Location: SE PA Posts: 336	From his description, I think that the OP is more interested in HD or even homestead (house and land) defense rather than purely self defense. Other than SHTF (which was implied in the OP), a situation of an isolated area with spread out houses hit in sequence by some kind of gang would not necessarily require waiting until they're 20 feet away from you. Of course that situation smacks more of Hollywood than reality. Then again, we saw Clint Eastwood use a Garand to run off a gang in Gran Torino, and those homes were awfully close together for deploying a 30-06. Hollywood will get you into trouble if you delude yourself into thinking it's real. __________________ Moron Lave (send a Congressman through the car wash)

February 25, 2009, 10:24 AM	#25
Rifleman 173 Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 589	The mini-14 is infamous for being ammo sensitive and having problems with accuracy. As the gun heats up from shooting the point of impact rises versus your point of aim. It also has trouble with foreign made ammo and ammo that has harder primers. I stay away from mini-14s as much as possible. Also keep in mind that any rifle you get you should think about mounting a scope on it. The scope doesn't have to be anything expensive or fancy, just decent. A good 4 X or 6 X scope enhances your over all accuracy without turning your rifle into a sniper rifle of limited range. If it is legal in your area, my suggestion is a good scoped AK type rifle *with a side mounted scope* system on it. Avoid dust cover or machine cover mounted scopes on the rifle because they are less reliable. I would go with the 7.62 X 39 ammo for the most efficiency over other calibers. The 7.62 X 39 ammo is a bit easier to obtain than other calibers.