The Pornographying of Firearms

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Today I was in Barnes and Noble off I-10 in San Antonio. It had a nice selection of all the latest gun rags. However, Playboy was behind the counter. It got me to thinking.

Down the road is Wal-Mart and it has a decent selection of usable long arms but no handguns, they have been removed.

Two large chain sporting good stores have bellied up. They used to have large handgun displays right next to the regular stuff.

On TFL - folks denounce large chain stores that stop carrying guns. Some then say -
Ah - what the heck - I only go the mom and pop stores only!! Support them.

Well, that's reasonable but I'm going to argue that removing guns from normal commerce is devasting to the RKBA.

It puts on the level of pornography.

I first saw my first real firearms in Macy's in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn, NY. They were in a section near the model airplanes. The store sold surplus military rifles. A few blocks away Sears sold guns too. Now, are there firearms in any Macy's or Sears?

You can't even get a long gun in NYC without permission now IIRC.

In Oregon and Texas, you could go to a major sporting goods store in a major mall and see nice displays of guns. Young folks can go look at sneakers and then wander over to the guns. A friendly clerk might answer a question for them Guns are seen as part of normal commerce and things a normal person would own.

So these stores go away and chains drop guns.
Where will that little kid see a gun?
Unless they are specifically taken to a gun show or range they won't. Maybe they will be taken to gun store - but that takes parental committment - just another choir member.

Where are the mom and pop shops? In Oregon, they are usually in crappy strip malls - next to crappy travel agencies and the like. Not a place that kids will go to. Or they are separate stores on a street that you don't go to unless you already want a gun - the choir!

Some stores are truly crappy. Now I know some nice ones in both states, that's true. But the odds of a kid going there spontaneously is low.

It is like a porno store. They are separate and evil. Playboy was banned from the markets. I could buy it at the grocery store - no more.

Dirty little stores in weird strip malls sell porno.

Gun magazines are disappearing in some places. Stores are isolated.

So when a major store drops guns - it might be ok with the choir. Sure, you could get Playboy at that special store also. But guns are not seen as normal to sell or own. We have lost something.

Interesting, maybe some of the guns guys said good that Playboy got banned from the store
(an allusion to flame wars in other threads).

Maybe there is some hope. A really nice store just opened near me. There are a couple of nice stores in decent places in Austin. However, you still have to go to them and that little kid who doesn't have a choir member mom or dad may never see them.

[Rosco P. Coltrain]

It is sort of odd that Playboy would be banned, it's a feminist publication. (Editted by Christie Hefner)

[jeffelkins]

We're 3/4ths down the slippery slope

My first rifle was delivered to the house by a smiling USPS employee and came from a Sears catalog. I was 10.

BTW, what does IIRC stand for?

[Gopher a 45]

Very good point Mr. Meyer! I patronize Wal-Mart for ammo, and even bought a Winchester 1300 there. Any ideas how we could get Sears & such to carry guns again? I don't but then I'm pretty unimaginative.

IIRC=if I recall correctly.

John

[kjm]

I think sears dropped out of guns not for political purposes, but to concentrate on their other lines. They used to carry catalogs for outdoorsmen, farmers & ranchers, and other specialty stuff. I used to order chickens and bees from sears. Not all stores drop guns for PC reasons. Nowdays though most of them do. I don't know, and I can usually argue with Glenn about a lot of stuff, but he's the expert in the field of subconscious thought. I never thought of it as pornafying (I know... it isn't a real word) guns, but now that you mention it, it sure seems to have that effect. I live in a little haven of common sense. Tonight I went to the grocery store to get some milk, and all the guys were sitting around the little lounge and one guy was passing around his AR that he just bought. It's great to live in Harper "by God" Texas!!!

[Gopher a 45]

LOL!

Texas indeed! I've often thought that if Texas somehow broke off and drifted into the Gulf, half of Texans wouldn't notice and the other half would say, "Awl Raght!"

John

[adad]

You are right about guns becoming stigmatized like pornography. However, you miss something important here. Pornography has always been stigmatized. It has always, until very recently, been found almost exclusively in sleazy out-of-the way places. Buying it at the local convenience store is the aberration, not the other way around.

I don't think the founders of our Republic saw any contradiction in censoring such materials and the right to keep and bear arms. I don't either. That's why I'm not a Libertarian.

If we can't make the simple distinction between the necessary, God-given right to self-defense afforded by the most efficient personal weapons available -- guns -- and the "freedom" to engage in what are universally considered to be vices which erode the stability of our communities, then we've lost the war already.

It should be obvious: an increase in the number of folks who choose to engage in vices which have lost much of their old stigma will inevitably lead to more social break down resulting in more violence. This will only increase the cry of the naive and easily-swayed to rid their streets of guns to "make them safe."

I really don't believe the pornographers, casino operators, drug dealers and pimps are on our side.

[Rosco P. Coltrain]

adad,
Since you just fired off a full magazine of informational blanks, I thought I would inform you of several points.

Denmark has the most lax laws with respect to pornography, and as a result the lowest rates of sex crime in any western nation.

The freedom of speech is the freedom to say what is unpopular. The founding fathers were clearly opposed to censorship.

What you may call a vice might be part of my religion. Most Christian churches serve alcohol. The Catholic church organizes gambling events. The Mormons used to officially practice polygyny untill the federal government wrongly stepped in. Southwestern american-indian mystics used to consume peyote for spiritual enlightenment, untill the DEA wrongly stepped in.

You speak about god in your post. Is religious freedom important to you? Or is it just YOUR god that is important?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I note that I did not come out in favor of **** - there are other forums for such discussions.

I was pointing out how firearms are going to treated in a matter similar to pornography and seen as some weird material to be sold in strange places and highly regulated.

Drugs - sold illegally. Some gun folks are planning to make their own guns and bury them in PVC. Like a drug stash?

Casinos - highly regulated - only in specific places. You can't play a game of poker in your neighhorhood pub, can you? Can't take your gun in the pub in many places.

As far as **** always being stigmatized, that might be the case in the USA but not through history. You need to take a course or two in Art History. You would blush about the norms across the world. Something like 75% of the vases in the British Museum's Greek collection can't be shown to the modern public.

But that's not here nor there.

Guns are being stigmatized. Why aren't gun stores in the malls? You might argue economics but there's more to it. In Albany, NY there is a decent little knife stand in the mall. In San Antonio, there are several malls. One has a decent knife store. There used to be one large sporting goods store with guns in the same parking lot complex next to the mall. Gone. In the malls themselves, I've never seen a gun store.

Except for the new store in a nice area in San Antonio, most of the stores are in crappy old strip malls or older streets. Like them dirty bookstores.

Gun folks sometimes want only gun freedom and then are very restrictive on other things.

Rosco got it right. Even if you disagree and you are restrictive on sexual materials, my point is that for the general public, guns may be seen as just as disgusting and insidous if the trend isn't arrested.

Wayne LaPierre going on TV about guns is seen as whacky as old Hugh Hefner spoutng off about sexual freedom.

I also have the right to make up new words.

[Long Path]

Glenn, you make a good point about guns being driven from the mainstream, and I'll confess that I'd never really considered that particular viewpoint in favor of giving Wal-Mart, et al my gun business. I am very much in favor of supporting local full-service independent gun shops, because they need all the business we can come up with, just to stay afloat. Most firearms-owners only have the money to spend a finite amount on firearms and accessories. The profit margin for each gun is pretty small, and most of us buy only a very few guns a year.

But, in truth, all gun-owners are going to occasionally find themselves in Wally World when they're picking up a pair of underwear, a gallon of milk, and mantles for their their Coleman lantern. Why not pick up that brick of .22 L.R.? Wal Mart isn't going to lose any business, and can stay afloat.

Last year, I shot a few dove with the 16 ga. Remington 11-48 that my grandfather bought in a hardware store in Ryan OK in the late '40's. That gun was bought by a man who very possibly said,"Gimme that roll or hardware cloth, a keg of 10-penny nails, 5 squares of shingles, and... hey! I'll take that new-fangled automatic shotgun!" And no one looked oddly at him as he carried his boodle out to his car, except, perhaps, to admire the new model shotgun.

[bookkie]

I agree. We are in the end of a shift in norms. It used not to be unusual to see several people with guns on their hips. Today it is rare. Since there are so few people who carry today, when one does (open) it tends to scare to many people. It's all perception. What one is used to seeing.

As soon as we get the RKBA in CA, for the above reason, I'm going to start carrying open. Just to let people know that not everyone is a murderer.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!

[Brainiac]

In the part of Texas where I live, the Wal-mart here has the most comprehensive selection of gun magazine. The Waldenbooks at the mall however does not have any which is why I decided not to drop by anymore.

thanks.

[Oleg Volk]

Around here, Target, most sporting goods stores carried guns 3-5 years ago. Now not one of them does, neither do some KMarts...and at least three gun stores of the nine I know of went out of business. Lovely, eh? On the plus side, Galyans, Gander Mountain branched into defensive handguns like USPc and cnubbies...

[Bob Womack]

: RKBA in CA,
I keep seeing this acronym and don't know what it means. Can someone inlighten me, pleazey?

Thanks boonches, mahn!

Bob

[DC]

RKBA= right to keep and bear arms


Add to the above posts, many ISPs now grouping guns in with ****, illegal activities and other nasties...and hence, not allowing webpages mentioning them. As well, Australia is in the process of a gov't mandated filtering of the Net...firearms sites will be unviewable

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited February 04, 2000).]

[jaydee]

So much for freedom of speech... Didn't Ole Larry Flintrock win a 1st ammendment suit on ****???

I was reading the latest Guns & Ammo last night, and caught an good article authored by Chuckie Heston... Another great article highlighted the gun grab Down Under by retired Senator Richardson IIRC.

Regarding AOL, I sure would be sticking them on the list with Levi's, Hallmark, etc... I would probably be filing suit as well.

My wife had a few comments about it as I read her an article on the AOL abuse to gun dealers though...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Guns Pornographic??? Well, that barrel 'does' have a phallic conotation, and where you stick those bullets.... It's no wonder they deemed them pornographic
[/quote]

I remember taking guns to school for "Show & Tell", getting my Marksmanship merit badge, and belonging to the school Rifle Club. Just won't find much of that today...

People often say to take someone shooting... Well, I would say to take someone who has kids shooting, and drag little Johnny along. We need to educate the kids that guns aren't evil like the teachers keep telling them, give them a fair shot at hearing both sides.

Remember... It's for the Children


------------------
Restrictive Gun Laws are ineffective... The day the criminals start obeying the law is the day we no longer have criminals.

It's Not about Guns... It's All about Rights!!!

[Oleg Volk]

As of this morning Barnes & Noble had more guns and military history magazines that I even thought even existed. Fleet Farm still carries guns and ammo. But, as you said, smaller stores and 95% of pawn shops no longer do...thanks to the NICS and related legal burdens.

[adad]

Mr. Meyer:

I think my post was a bit too much for this thread, so I'll start another one on the topic of "Why I'm not a Libertarian" in this General Discussion forum (later -- gotta work right now). I don't want to detract any more from your original observation, that guns are becoming taboo and are being relegated to the dark corners of society. I think its an excellent point.

BTW: I never intended to suggest that you were supportive of pornography -- my apologies for not being clearer on that.

I grew up in a home where one or more rifles were always present. My dad kept a ruger .30-'06 in his bedroom and my brothers both had rifles. I too can remember a time (and I'm only 30-something) when guns were respected for the harm they could do if mis-handled but were considered to be a useful tool (kinda like power tools, I guess). I didn't talk about guns much back then, but I don't recall ever feeling embarassed if the subject came up in casual conversation.

But now when I want to call a gun store to ask about their sale on ammo or the availability of a new gun or just talk to a friend about my latest purchase, I do feel embarassed -- and worried, like I'll be "found out" (although I think most folks that sit near me have pretty much figured out what my latest "hobby" is). I think the analogy to pornography (in this sense) is a good one. I now have the distinct impression that most people think that guns are not a subject for mixed company. I'm sure that I could easily offend someone just by talking about my shotgun or, heaven forbid, my evil handgun!

Your point about "regular" stores not carrying guns contributes to this sense that guns are bad and only bad people would want one. And of course the Masters of Misinformation, the Mass Media, have pushed this along in waves ever since the terrible tragedies that took place in the sixties (the assassinations of JFK and MLK).

I'd love to see "regular" stores carry guns again but I think, until recently, most of this has been a symptom of the lack of buying power on the part of gun owners. There just aren't as many of us as there used to be so most stores aren't going to carry such "niche" items as guns and ammo (unless you're a huge chain store like K-Mart or Wal-Mart). Now, of course, the anti's are trying to use public presure to drive guns from anything like a "regular" store, like K-Mart and Wal-Mart. They're relying on just the thing you point out to do this. Guns are becoming stigmatized just like pornography (whether pornography should or should not be stigamtized is another subject).

Do we fight this by demanding that our local hardware or grocery store carry guns and ammo or we'll shop somewhere else? No, I don't think that'll make sense until we do a better job recruiting, which requires educating the mis-informed -- not an easy or quick task. However, I think drawing a line in the sand and demanding that the large chain stores that do carry guns not cave in to the presure tactics of the anti-gun fanatics is a very important battle that we should make every effort to win.

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Wound ballistics is the study of effects on the body produced by penetrating projectiles:
Wound Ballistics

Great daily commentary from a thoughtful Christian perspective:
Daily Commentary

[This message has been edited by adad (edited February 04, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by adad (edited February 04, 2000).]

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yep - I forgot the greatest example of this when AOL nailed Jim Supica's (guy who wrote that great SW book) antique gun site as being pornographic. No assault rifles, saturday night specials - but great collectibles.

That was ****.

No offense taken, adad

[Erik]

I agree- guns are being stigmatized, branded as evil, immoral, and relegated to "hushed" conversations throughout America.

Example: I was sharing my opinions on the national gun debate the other day with a coworker/friend. Another worker joined us, realized what we were discussing, and whispered "do you think it is appropriate to talk about that at work?" I pointed to the front page of the paper he was carrying, featuring headlines about gun legislation and answered "yes." He looked to his paper with a puzzled expression, then wandered off. My cooworker/friend, who is not pro gun by the way, commented on how rediculous it was that a topic worthy of the front page should somehow not be worthy of public conversation. I agreed.

Oh, had we been conversing about pornography, I could understand someone being concerned... Funny thing, though, I doubt the guy would have minded at all. So to him, guns are worse than pornography, apparently. :-(

Erik

[Dennis]

Glenn,
As you would expect, I agree that firearms and related subjects are treated more and more as objectionable - similar to pornography.

Where you and I differ, is that I recognize the "pornographication" of firearms is merely one more step toward the complete gutting of the Second Amendment. There are many people willfully or unintentionally supporting that travesty:

- People who want to force guns completely out of our culture. The leading witch, of course, is Sarah Brady.

- People who want to "stop the killing" (just as WE do). But these are the uneducated, misguided, or simply zealous folks who do not realize where their efforts lead.

- People who are afraid of controversy - for personal or business reasons.

- People who fail to learn that compromise with zealots is temporary and a non-solution. The zealots merely make new, additional demands.

There may be others, but these are the ones who come quickly to mind. That is why I plan to rub it in every single time that someone suggests yet another

reasonable compromise.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

[G-Freeman]

I have been trying to define pornography to my own satisfaction for many years. The closest I have come that has stuck is: Pornography is a lie with the intention of debasing the truth. I consider the methods utilized by some antis as pornographic. It does not have to do merely with a distortion of sexual imagery by hucksters. By my personal definition, Washington is Sin City.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dennis, I though I raised the problem as a threat to the Second Ammendment. So how to we disagree.

I even wont get excited by the compromise issue. As you know, I regard the battle as a struggle where you use various tactics and strategies. You give a step back for three steps forward.

The problem with your compromisers is one I agree with. They think that a compromise will stop the attack - it won't.

The never give in crowd thinks that they will always be able to fend off attacks. They are wrong.

I believe in a subtle and twisting approach.
As Clint Smith says - you can cheat to win.

[Dennis]

Glenn,

Dennis: “Where you and I differ, is that I recognize the "pornographication"
of firearms is merely one more step toward the complete gutting of the
Second Amendment.”

Glenn: “Dennis, I thought I raised the problem as a threat to the Second
Amendment. So how do we disagree?”

Dennis: (Long pause) I have NO idea what I saw (or thought I saw) to
justify my comment. It’s flat wrong. I apologize.
- I wonder what the heck I thought I was addressing at the time. ??
- Maybe in re-writing I edited something out? I just don’t know. Sorry.
-------

Glenn: “The never give in crowd thinks that they will always be able to fend
off attacks. They are wrong.”

Dennis: I don’t want to agree; however it is obvious we are losing and
losing at an increasing rate.

Glenn: “I believe in a subtle and twisting approach. As Clint Smith says -
you can cheat to win.”

Dennis: I believe I’m about ready to discuss your ideas in depth.

[Joseph]

I was noticing this aspect a week or so ago. Here in Charlotte, the major gun store is in a decrepit half-occupied strip mall in a **** section of town.

The others are in far out industrial areas. The same for the ranges.

The clientele for most of these is serious country folk. The wealthy Charlotteans go to the **** district.

But, you know how we guys love our dives for breakfast of grits/hasbrowns, fried eggs and meat. Maybe we like our guns that way, too.