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Old May 18, 2009, 06:35 PM   #1
glock06
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Ccw usage:perception is reality!!

I feel that so much of society and its attitude is just perception, not reality.

Only a small percent of folks have CCW's (??5% of population) but stats show violent crime goes down in those states.

If scumbags are going to try a carjacking who do you think they will try-- a good ole boy in a pickup with a NRA sticker and an empty gun rack or a female in a high end foreign sedan??

How many gun stores get robbed? Who would want to go in a store where everyone inside the store may be a lethal threat?

My sheriff has said that some robbers will avoid confronting or assulting folks if they have a gun magazine in plain sight!!
Guess what?? His deputies will call for backup whenever they pull over a vehicle with a NRA or Marine insignia!! Hardcore Weaponry is assumed!! Perception is reality!!

We want more gunnies to carry but maybe we really need to push putting NRA stickers on vehicles.Do we need to wear more camera vests in the summer or ugh, fanny paks on the hip suggesting "gun"??

What do folks think??
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Old May 18, 2009, 06:54 PM   #2
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but stats show
Whose stats?

I don't disagree with the concept, I just think it is a hard one to actually prove.

As to your car-jacking example, you are mixing apples and oranges. How about a female in a high end foreign sedan with an NRA sticker?

I question how much thought goes through their mind when they do a crime...
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Old May 18, 2009, 07:08 PM   #3
glock06
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Below is a link on the percent of population in states who have a CCW.The actual number who use their CCW and carry in public is unknown.

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2004/...ith-carry.html

If we compare apples to apples then I still think the NRA sticker on a the same car will make perps think twice!!

How can we promote the perception of an armed populace?? Should we consider doing that??
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Old May 18, 2009, 07:26 PM   #4
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The data is to old Colorado was only available for 1 year at that time.
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Old May 18, 2009, 09:06 PM   #5
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Anyone have more recent info?

Bottomline-stats suggest gunowners may be 3%ers like the ?3% BG's in the population out there. Guess then there's a 1% chance that both can meet??

To bad--the BG's need to worry more out there!!
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Old May 18, 2009, 09:11 PM   #6
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woot for GA. we are all packin
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Old May 19, 2009, 03:28 AM   #7
glock06
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Whoops!!

3% X 3% is 0.09% or about 0.1% a very small number!!!

Perception IS reality!
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Old May 19, 2009, 07:18 AM   #8
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I carry concealed for a reason. Last thing I want to do is wear a fanny-pack, or a vest that is going to put a big sign on me that says "GUN".

What we need are more stories on the news about how someone with a CHL has protected himself & his family from a badguy.

One time I would like to see a LE official encourage all law abiding citizens to "do their part" in making the streets safer by carrying a handgun. Same principle as learning CPR. If you wait for "first responder" to show up it may be too late. Better to have the "citizens" helping out.
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Old May 19, 2009, 07:40 AM   #9
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Guess what?? His deputies will call for backup whenever they pull over a vehicle with a NRA or Marine Insignia.

Isn't profiling illegal?
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Old May 19, 2009, 09:50 AM   #10
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illegal but still happens. it is what it is. I don't get "randomly" checked at the airport. I know its cause I look middle eastern.
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Old May 19, 2009, 02:39 PM   #11
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My husband runs a construction company, though we have a good crew of guys now that has not always been the case. We have had some questionable people work for us in the past. He has always been sure that they know that him and i both carry. I used to think it was kind of funny that he did this until we had a friend that also runs a crew hire one of our ex-employees. When our friend had to fire the guy the ex ended up showing up to his house and cops had to get involved. The situation in which he was let go by our friend was much more mellow that when my husband had to fire him. Can't help but believe that the reason he never came to our house or threatened either of us is because he knows we both carry.
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Old May 19, 2009, 04:23 PM   #12
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Correlation is not causation. Texas' crime dropped so much with the CHL program in 1996 that it caused crime to drop 2-3 years before 1996. Not only that, but it caused crime to drop in NY, MA, and IL.
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Old May 19, 2009, 04:34 PM   #13
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Who would want to go in a store where everyone inside the store may be a lethal threat?
The stupid. It happens.
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Old May 19, 2009, 06:02 PM   #14
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whats a foreign sedan got to do with anything.

some people dont care where its made as long as it is well made
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Old May 20, 2009, 08:45 AM   #15
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I live "out in the boonies" so to speak, . . . and would surely love to promote the NRA, . . . shooting sports, . . . all that good stuff.

I don't though, . . . as I don't want to advertise as a shopping place for the low lifes around here.

As for the LEO's, . . . I'm told in Ohio, . . . any officer pulling over one with a CHL, . . . he knows it before he exits his cruiser.

But I do subscribe to the "perception is reality" concept to avoid confrontations. Parking lot loiterers I avoid, . . . I also avoid the "rob me, . . . I'm old, helpless, confused, and would be easy picking" look as much as I can.

But I do wear my OD, USMC soft cap with my nickle plated PO1 rank on it out in public. I've noticed at times that some scummies kinda recoil from the image it projects, . . . and I'm not unhappy that that takes place.

May God bless,
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Old May 20, 2009, 10:02 AM   #16
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His deputies will call for backup whenever they pull over a vehicle with a NRA or Marine insignia!! Hardcore Weaponry is assumed!! Perception is reality!!
I have had a couple cops tell me it goes both ways on this one, some LEO will see you have a CCW when they run your plate and assume that you are a law abiding citizens that plays it by the book, and I have had another cop (the one that taught my CCW class) say that he automaticaly has a CCW'er step out of the car just to be safe.
I got pulled over right after recieving my CCW and was kind of nervous, I accidently handed the officer my Drivers liscense and the registration for my pistol instead of my CPL. he didn't even ask for the CPL and wanted to know how I like my SW99
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Old May 20, 2009, 10:28 AM   #17
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I figure it could go both ways, but I'm gonna have to agree, more or less, with the OP.

A few things to consider:

-There are no stats on crimes that did NOT occur.

-Criminals are not all "dumb"... what they do is not smart, but there ARE smart criminals out there.

-You only hear about the crimes that did happen, and those are the ones we tend to remember.

I think most criminals pick out the target they assume to be the weakest. The guy / gal with a gun is not likely to be the weakest target a BG can find.
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Old May 20, 2009, 01:29 PM   #18
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The notion of "perception is reality" is really a fallacy of human interaction.
First off, someone's perception is not reality. Reality is reality; a perception is a persons opinion. Just because someone thinks something doesn't automatically make that a scientific fact or "reality".
So no, perception is not reality, not even close. That is a cliche term that is overused and non-sense.

Example:
I am a stay at home dad, most people I see out in the community during the work day 9-5 perceive me to be off work for a random reason that day (they walk over tell me this: "So your off work and decided to give your wife a day off from the kids...how sweet!")and have the kids to give mom a break from watching the kids.
That isn't true. They also think I am a big teddy bear that wouldn't hurt a soul because I am gentle and tender with my 2 little girls age 3 and 1 year old...they don't know that I would not hesitate to use lethal force if a situation arose where my life/my kids life were in immediate danger where I could not de-escalate the situation or safely get outta there. They have no clue that I practice daily and shoot bi-weekly for just a situation...much less perceive that I'm carrying a semi-automatic handgun on my belt (locked and loaded) with extra mags, a surefire light, among other tools to aid in my/my kids personal well being in an emergency.

I'd sleep like a baby with a clean conscious afterward too. I'd be more worried about the trauma my kids would go through if something like that happened.
Try to kidnap my kids, rob me, etc...it ain't gonna go like the bad guy thinks its gonna go.
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Old May 20, 2009, 01:33 PM   #19
Housezealot
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They also think I am a big teddy bear that wouldn't hurt a soul because I am gentle and tender with my 2 little girls age 3 and 1 year old...they don't know that I would not hesitate to use lethal force if a situation arose where my life/my kids life were in immediate danger
so you are kind of like a bear minus the teddy part me too!
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Old May 20, 2009, 02:00 PM   #20
David Armstrong
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Isn't profiling illegal?
No, profiling is not illegal. Profiling is used regularly and in a lawful manner most of the time. That it is illegal is more of that perception versus reality stuff, which is the more correct term, as MHbushmaster pointed out. Way too many people confuse the two.
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Old May 20, 2009, 05:07 PM   #21
glock06
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Of course perception is not reality!!

Perception is individuals concepts and impressions influencing the reality of the world around them.

Gunnies want BG's perception to influence reality.Regarding CCW, if BG's don't know who is armed then the unarmed get a freebie!!

Gunnies may want to enhance BG's perception that they WILL DIE if they mess with certain folks with certain ID characteristics. Clothes, gunbag,etc. Using these "hints" may help the good guys. But alternatively it may attract the attention of law enforcement. It may be bets to be totally unremarkable in dress and appearance. Avoiding flagrant suggestions is important.Then its not CCW carry.

Once the reality of an attack is on then its all reality and how you deal with the threat. Still,if we enhance the perception of personal injury/death for BG's all benefit. The more BG's reported in the paper shot by good guys hopefullly means less crime for all.
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Old May 20, 2009, 05:40 PM   #22
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The more BG's reported in the paper shot by good guys hopefullly means less crime for all.
You might think so, but that just isn't the case. Hell, here in Texas, we had a junk yard owner killing intruders twice inside of a few weeks. You would think the first incident proved the old guy a tough customer, but nope, somebody else tried to rip him off as well. That person died.

It is going to take a LOT of bad guys getting killed before crime rates are apt to drop as a result of said activities. Then again, you run the risk of spurring bad guys into shooting first out of fear they will be shot. So the first indication of attack won't be "give me your money" but "blam blam blam."

Bad guys can be proactive as well.
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Old May 20, 2009, 09:44 PM   #23
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DNS, I remember that happening. It is a fact that dead bad guy's are no longer repeat offenders.

There was another case in Sunnyvale Texas where a home owner arrived home early to find his house being burgled. He fired multiple shots at the fleeing car killing IIRC three fleeing felons. Again IIRC he either was not charged or no-billed.

His house has not been reported to have any more burglaries since. I forgot to mention this was his third or fourth burglary.
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Old May 21, 2009, 06:40 AM   #24
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It is a fact that dead guys are not repeat offenders....okay....but not all people shot as a matter of self defense are dead guys.

Your example is interesting, but show cause and effect. How do you know why he hasn't been burgled again? How he done other measures to his home? Has the crime in the area changed?

It is like the example I noted above about Texas getting its CHLs. It scared off the criminal element so badly that is caused crime to drop a couple years prior to the inception of the CHL program and even cause crime to drop in states where concealed carry either wasn't allowed or was highly restricted were more than 1000 miles distant!!

In other words, something else was going on at the time to cause crime rates to go down that had NOTHING to do with the CHL program.

People like to point out Florida as a great example of where the violent crime rate went down the year their concealed carry program went into effect...as if criminals all of a sudden realized that everyone became magically armed. Strangely, the crime rate in Florida went up in the following three years after that! So much for guns reducing crime.http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/content/...FSAC-Home.aspx

Here is the violent crime data. Inception was 1987.

Year Total Violent
Crime Volume % Change Total Violent
Crime Rate Per
100,000 Population % Change
1971 38,572 0.0 547.80 0.0
1972 40,248 4.3 540.90 -1.3
1973 46,430 15.4 591.80 9.4
1974 54,852 18.1 665.00 12.4
1975 57,663 5.1 679.60 2.2
1976 54,543 -5.4 637.80 -6.2
1977 57,916 6.2 664.40 4.2
1978 65,784 13.6 733.60 10.4
1979 73,866 12.3 799.00 8.9
1980 94,068 27.3 982.00 23.0
1981 98,090 4.3 971.40 -1.10
1982 93,406 -4.8 900.30 -7.3
1983 88,298 -5.5 833.70 -7.4
1984 95,368 8.0 872.50 4.7
1985 106,980 12.2 948.50 8.7
1986 120,977 13.1 1,037.70 9.4
1987 123,030 1.7 1,021.50 -1.6
1988 138,343 12.4 1,114.10 9.1
1989 145,473 5.2 1,136.70 2.0
1990 160,554 10.4 1,220.90 7.4
1991 158,181 -1.5 1,198.70 -1.8
1992 161,137 1.9 1,200.30 0.08
1993 161,789 0.4 1,188.90 0.9
1994 157,835 -2.4 1,137.20 -4.3
1995 150,208 -4.8 1,061.60 -6.6
1996 151,350 0.8 1050.20 -1.1

The same holds for Texas in 1996. It is lauded as showing a remarkable drop in crime when CHLs were allowed, but then again, crime dropped in some 43 states in 1996, including some that did not have concealed carry or that were anti concealed carry. What does that tell you?
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/96CRIME/96crime2.pdf

It should tell you that something else is at work other than concealed carry.

The notion that concealed carry drops crimes rates, especially violent crime rates, is pretty silly. It is a lot of wishful thinking and rose colored glasses.

Concealed carry does not affect the overall crime rates or overall violent crime rates in an appreciable manner, or it hasn't so far. It does have a tremendous effect for those individuals who do carry and defend themselves however. That is where the real power of this comes into play and why folks carry.
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Old May 21, 2009, 12:47 PM   #25
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The notion that concealed carry drops crimes rates, especially violent crime rates, is pretty silly. It is a lot of wishful thinking and rose colored glasses.
I disagree... There are WAY to many variables to consider when looking at raw data from 10 or 20 years ago. The facts are facts, but I dont think one can conclude that CCW had ZERO impact on the crime rate from the data alone.
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