You've just shot someone - What do you do now ?

[HS]

If this ever happens, what do you do ? Have only read a tiny bit of info from the net but I am asking for more. First thing I can think of is to make sure the threat has ended. Then unload the gun and secure it. Call the police/ambulance and wait. When the LEO's arrive DON'T talk to them as such. Keep quiet until you have regained your wits and have a lawyer present. Have I left anything out ? If so please tell me and everyone else. We may all learn a thing or two fom this thread....HS

[GmbH]

If you are truly an Australian, how would our American suggestions help?

Our suggestions might even make your case worse.

Which part of Australia may I ask?

[Rich Lucibella]

HS-
This is a great topic. Don't know if our rules apply down under, but I offer the following comments which I first posted to another Forum a few weeks back. This has to do with debriefing and surviving in the aftermath of a violent encounter.

I'm not going to suggest anything that is outright illegal (or dangerous), such as "throw down" weapons or witness tampering; that's up to each person's own conscience. I would go as far as to consider getting away from the scene as quickly and casually as possible, under certain circumstances (YMMV). I'm generally talking about excersizing all of our rights under the law to protect our assets and freedom.

-If you have an attorney, even for business or real estate, get his home number. Memorize his home and office numbers and keep a backup copy in your wallet. Even if he's not a criminal attorney, he should know how to get hold of one.

-Do Not, under any circumstances, volunteer a statement to the cops. No offense to the law enforcement types here, but the investigating officer(s) will not be the judge of whether you walk free of charges; the District Attorney will...the meter's running each second your mouth is open. Police can be very skillful at getting a statement...that's their job. Whether you're being patted on the back and asked "just a few questions so we can close this case up", or threatened with arrest for "obstruction", don't give a statement. Even if you catch a known serial killer in the act, don't give a statement.

Remember, we have the same rights as the scum who attacked us:
-We have the right to be in "shock" and be "fuzzy" in our memories after a life and death encounter.
-We have the right to repeat the statement, "I thought his was going to kill me/him/her" over and over...dramatic touches to be applied cautiously. The police aren't stupid.
-We have the right to respond that "everything happened so quickly, I just need a few minutes to sort it out".
-We have the right to become light in the head and to need to sit down and request some water.
-We have the right to experience shortness of breath and chest pain after such an ordeal and to request a doctor.

-Ultimately, we have the right to be so "scared" that we'd prefer to talk to our attorney before saying anything more. If pressed, we have the right to explain our position to a superior officer. (This last step is the one where innocent people usually fold, not wanting to "look" guilty. When pressed, they give statements.)

All of the above buys us (and others) time to organize our thoughts and get in touch with an attorney. Time to make a well thought out statement on our terms. It could be the difference between charges or a walk; between vacation with the wife and kids next year or sending our paycheck to some dirtbag's family.

Lastly:
-Make certain your attorney gets the statement of witnesses who will corroborate your story within hours (not days) of the incident.

In any case, don't expect to be going home. Nothing you say or do is going to avoid a detainment and debrief. Your "inability" to provide a clear recount of the events may cause you a few extra hours in unpleasant surroundings; but you're already in the sytem at that point. Dig in for the long haul.

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-24-98).]

[Rich Lucibella]

One last point: in a recent article (Combat Knives?), Mas Ayoob speaks of the need to preserve evidence. Now, I have my criticisms of Mas, but I think he does add something to the discussion of legal consequences of the shoot.

In that article, Mas explains the forensic importance of the perp's clothing. It can be used to positively establish your distance at the time of shooting...this can be extremely helpful in the certain-to-follow civil proceedings. Inevitably, Mr. Gangbanger (or his surviving family) argues that he was cowering at a distance of 200 meters, begging for his life when you "executed" him.

Even in big city PD's, the perp's clothing may be forgotten in the Emergency Room. If so, it's generally incinerated or otherwised disposed of shortly thereafter...along with vital evidence.

Moral of the story? Make certain your attorney formally requests preservation of the evidence. Requests for videotaped "chain of evidence" documentation are even better. If the former, Mr. Home Invader is now deceased, be certain your attorney has an independant forensics expert check the autopsy report and, if necessary, the body before that evidence is buried or cremated.

Not a position any of us want to be placed in. But it can happen.
Hope this helps.
Rich

[o1paw]

HS,
After determining the threat has ended, RELOAD.(This shows investigators you were truely in fear of your life until the calvary got there), secure the perp's weapon by physically standing on it(well, within reason). When the cops arrive, clear your weapon, leave the cylider open/slide back , hold it up over your head , letting it dangle with one finger through the triggerguard, and dont talk to the cops right away. It might even be handy to have a small notepad handy to help you organize your thoughts and remember small details that you may forget at a later date.
Well, thats all I can think of at the moment.
01paw

[HS]

Thanks for the replies guys. GmbH,yes I am defineately an Aussie in Brisbane Qld. Thought of this topic at 11:06 last night and thinking of the predominantly US readers out there, figured it would be a good "what if" discussion. Even being in AUS, bad guys still get shot by home owners from time to time. We're good shots too ! Rich, thanks for the informative suggestions and the casual way you mentioned not talking about throw downs... O1 Paw, like me you do get around, dont you...grin...HS..ps We do have a few RIGHTS left to us in AUS, at least until the're taken away !

[o1paw]

HS,
Oh yeah, I do get around from time-to-time Especially when the topics of discussion have been beat to death by certain non-factual personas, demonizing and degrading what has withstood the test of time. I think we both know whom I speak of, dont we?
See ya round the block, bud,
01paw

[GLV]

1) Make sure the event is over. 2) See if there is anything you can do for the person shot, make phone calls. 2A) Your first phone call after 911 should be to someone that would notify all the people that need to know about your situation -- lawyer, political friends, powerful friends, those who could inquire about your welfare. 3) I feel qualified to pronounce ( longtime EMT ) and if I do so, I would take a roll of film of the scene. I always have a small camera in my vest. 4) When police and medics arrive, be sure your gun is concealed,idenify yourself to the police, medics, and hopefully they will not destroy too much evidence. 5) Hopefully the police will control the scene, but observe everything you can. 6) Do not give a statement. Explain that you are too anything/everything/chest pains/etc. 7) When you give your statement, do not be specific about distance, time, number of shots fired, etc. The police can determine all of these things, and you should let them do it. It is easy to say that the only thing I could think about was getting home top my wife, kids, grandkids etc. Remember, most criminal lawyers are used to defending guilty people. Make sure the lawyer you pick knows how to defend someone who is innocent! GLV

[HS]

GLV, why on earth would you conceal your gun ? Not a flame, but why ? I would prefer to have it off my person than have some LEO pointing HIS gun at me while having my gun removed. Would much rather say " It's over there unloaded" or something along those lines. Imagine getting blown away because of an itchy trigger finger after you've already won the battle !...grin ....HS (Gordon)

[the doctor]

I read of an incident that if, after you have had to shoot someone, call 911 and do not hang up. Be sure to identify yourself and what you look like so the cops won't mistake you. Usually with a quick call, I would imagine all the info police get is "shots fired, man down".

[chris in mo]

Ayoob wrote a very good article about this topic in a magazine a couple years ago. He suggested that you reholster the gun and do not drop it. It allows you to have control of the gun. If you throw it, or drop it, it will be harder to keep track of. I would not unload because you knever know what will develop before the police arrive.

I think the gun over the head will put you in greater jepordy of being shot that no visable gun. Remember that when the police do arrive they will not know the details of the incident, just that there has been a shooting. If they pull up and see you standing over someone who has been shot they do not know who the good guy is.

Another thing he pointed out is that if you are in the midst of an incident when police arrive and they tell you to drop the gun, do it. Turning to see who said that could be a last fatal mistake as they can mistake that as turning to shoot at them. Natural reaction to someone yelling to you is to turn and face them, that is not the best response to a police challenge.

I've read in many places that you should not make a statement untill you have a lawyer present. It is likely that what you say will be taken in the worst possable light and could come back to haunt you if you don't have legal representation present while you were questioned.

Just a few thoughts. Chris in MO

[GmbH]

I want to recap the most important thing.

DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE.

Even though you are 200% right, you don't know what vocabularies they are trying to get out of you.

Even in a clear homeowner-intruder situation, they absolutely do NOT like the fact that you shot the intruder. Even though you might have elected to exercise your right to defend yourself, they don't see it that way. You are a criminal in their belief until and unless proven not guilty.

If they cuff you up. Be calm. If you get upset, they will throw another charge on you; "Obstruction of Justice". If they take you to the station, go ahead. That does NOT mean you are thrown in jail. Be patient. Don't even talk to the DA w/o an attorney present. Even the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]tiest lawyer can save your rear big time in such circumstances.

That's how it works here in America. Tell me a bit about Australia.

[HS]

GmbH, I would say the scenario would be pretty much the same here. Technically we do have the right to use LETHAL force to defend ourselves but say not against an unarmed offender that you out weigh by 100 pounds. Luckily for me I'm 5' 6 and 9 stone ! At least I would have the (sympathy) vote...grin. Might hafta hide all the 1st place target comp. medals though, and the IPSC 1st place standard I got last comp. Told ya we Aussies can shoot ! ....HS (Gordon)

[GLV]

Gordon, do you want the gun in your hand when the police arrive? What if your goblin is still alive? Where are you going to put the gun? Conceal ( holster ) your gun on your person ( assuming handgun ) when police arrive. You want to be non threatening. Police responding to a shots fired call will be very jumpy. GLV

[Mark Cook]

Here's the sequence we teach our "Defensive Handgun I/II" students:
1. Verify the threat is no longer present. If your opponent is still present but not dead, disarm by kicking their weapon out of reach. DO NOT PICK IT UP OR HANDLE IT! Instruct anyone else present to leave it alone until the police arrive. If possible, designate one person to do nothing but keep an eye on the weapon.
2. Reload and reholster. It makes you appear *MUCH* less threatening to police and you should be able to re-arm yourself in under 2 seconds if another threat appears, right?
3. If you are inside a business, have the manager (or someone else in charge) lock the doors until the police arrive. This preserves the crime scene and the witnesses. Ask the manager to meet the police and to describe you to them. This prepares the police to recognize you as the defensive shooter.
4. Do not answer any questions other than your name, address, and phone number. Under no circumstances volunteer a statement. If pressed, simply state that you are still shaken by the incident (which will probably be the truth) and indicate that you want your legal counsel present before saying anything else.
5. Expect to be disarmed, handcuffed, and taken to jail to be held for a few hours. Do *NOT* take this personally. There has just been a lethal shooting and the police are doing their jobs to try and get it sorted out. Once your lawyer arrives, you should be able to secure your release without too much trouble.
6. Do not expect to have your gun returned to you for weeks, or longer. Until the case is completely closed, your firearm is evidence in a homicide investigation. Again, this is standard procedure. You should anticipate this and have a back-up gun at home which you can carry until your other handgun is returned. Also, concerning carrying after the incident, your local police agency may have prohibitions against you carrying another gun until all charges have been cleared. OBEY THEM!! The quickest way to look guilty in the eyes of the law is to disobey something like this after having just recently ended someones life.
7. Last but not least, be prepared to be sued. Even if the grand jury returns a "no bill" on you (justified homicide), you can be almost guaranteed that the scumbag you greased will have relatives that want your life savings for killing their "innocent little choirboy". This may be unfair, but it is an unfortunate fact of the American legal system.

Stay safe, shoot straight, and *NEVER* stop fighting.

Regards,

- Mark C.
Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
Front Sight First Family member #1

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[Rich Lucibella]

Mark-
Welcome and thanks much for some great points. Wondered when one of your guys would get around to joining us!
Rich Lucibella

[GLV]

Mark C., good info -- Ayoob 101 Three Rings of Safety. The phone call to one who holds your survival list is very important. GLV Member ASLET, IALEFI, NRA certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, Handgun, Rifle, Shotgun, LFI III 1988, EMT, and too many more to list.

[HS]

OK, point taken about re-holstering. Probably watched too many episodes of L.A.P.D. and COPS. Those guys seem a bit (gung ho) in their arrest techniques. NOT a flame in ANY way to L.E.O.'s reading this. Was primarily concerned about MY safety after the shooting. Lots of GOOD points so far. Thanks...HS

[chargar]

HS your original post had it about right...keep it simple...you will have a hard time thinking after the smoke clears. The simpler the better. I am a shooter and a lawyer. I cannot agree more with the others...Don't talk to the police...spend the night in jail if you have too...they are interested in clearing the case as quick as they can..and you might be the easy way out.

[pate]

Just to add a twist: what if you had to shoot someone while carrying illegally? Would it be better to run or call police and probably get screwed over in criminal and civil courts?

[TAZ]

Pate,
I'd much rather be faced with the charge of illegally carying a concealed weapon than with murder. If you run, you will probably be charged with murder.

[Ed Brunner]

If I have just shot someone and there is a weapon on the ground I dont think I want it there.Isnt there a risk that that somebody could use it against me or even steal it so that it appears that I shot an unarmed person?
I think I should secure it somehow. Now that we have experts what do you think?

[HS]

Remember one thing, FINGERPRINTS !

[Rob Pincus]

Taze, pete- Don't run. Stupid. It not only conveys the wrong image of the armed citizen and is likely to cause you mental trauma forever, but you will also become an instant murder suspect. We had a manslaughter case last year that became murder, simply because the guy left the scene and hid from the us for two months.

[HS]

Erik, thanks for the LEO opinion. Your post was'nt long at all. Hope all this info might help out someone someday. Bad enough to have to "actually" shoot someone but to then be screwed by what you say or what you do afterwards....urghh...HS