Keep Me From Blowing Up My Rifle, Please.

Vote For David · June 30, 2009, 11:33 PM

I have been considering a few solutions to a pigeon problem and so far the best I can come up with is a .177 pellet which is either rainbow-like in trajectory or gives a puff of feathers out the other side of a through-and-through.

I got some Aguila Super Colibris which are almost as quiet (one requirement for my solution is low noise) but they cost . . . considerably more than pellets.

I got it into my genius brain to pull some CCI Mini-Mags' bullets, dump the (one grain of) powder, reload the bullet, and shoot those for some seriously cheap, seriously quiet, VERY high impact (for a pigeon) loads.

How did it work? Let me tell you, it was squibtastic! In a Marlin 60, the 40gr. bullets got all of 3" or so down the barrel. The Aguilas have a fatter rim and I'm thinking either more or higher-brissance primer compound than the CCIs. So I said to myself, "self, put a teeny bit of powder back in the case and shoot that" but then alarm bells went off about undercharge detonation and I had to ask:

If I seriously undercharge a .22LR, on a scale of 1 to 10, what does the all-knowing intarwebz say about my chances of a larger explosion than I bargained for? I searched here and even asked Mr. Google, but couldn't find a solid answer.

Cliffs: We're talking .22LR here. If I use significantly less than 1 grain of powder, say 1/5 or less of the same powder that CCI puts in a Mini-Mag, will it make my gun asplode?

Wildalaska · June 30, 2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

will it make my gun asplode?

Asplode? No you need to have a malfunction of the dilithium crystals in your warp drive for anything to asplode, at least in my world (which is different from yours as I am a different dimensional species)

WildjustcamebytomakesurenothingasplodesAlaska TM

Sevens · June 30, 2009, 11:48 PM

I have read and followed most every link ever put up on the subject of "detonation" having to do with too little powder, powder laying horizontally in the cartridge case and burning along it's length from the top... and STILL I've not seen any tangible proof that this is real. And no lab has ever been able to replicate it.

So I'm skeptic on the subject of detonation. Other are sold on it. I don't pretend to know what they know and I certainly don't attempt to talk them out of it. It;s just more that I've never been talked in to it.

Now, with rimfire .22, let's take a look. First, where does the firing pin impact the rim on the rifle in question? Is it on the bottom, 6 o'clock spot? If YES, then it seems to me that no matter how little powder you've got in there, it's going to be directly hit with primer flame.

Next, I wonder if you are getting a proper seal when you are yanking bullets from a heeled round like .22 rimfire.

Lastly, I don't think you could possibly hurt any modern .22 caliber rifle with an undercharge of powder until you lodge a bullet in the bore, don't realize it (or forget it) and then send another. There is where your safety issue lies, at least IMO.

Other option for quiet? CCI CB long. Very quiet, very light. I don't know how it'd compare to the Super Colibri.

I'm not following what the problem is with the air rifle. Rainbow trajectory, bad. Through and through with a cloud of feathers-- that's sounds like it works! What have I missed?

Maybe get a cat.

csmsss · July 1, 2009, 12:23 AM

Personally, I find the idea of shooting super-light loads through a rifle to be a very bad one. You'd be much better off shooting them through a handgun in order to minimize the chance of a squib (and to make clearing the squib much easier, too). If you were to get a revolver, you could easily load it with .22 shorts, which are very quiet and would be more than enough to ruin the day of even the most steelhearted pigeon.

csmsss · July 1, 2009, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Maybe get a cat.

The OP can have mine. I am *very* sick and tired of cleaning up bird carcasses, feathers, and gecko tails from my back yard.

Sport45 · July 1, 2009, 12:32 AM

The pellet gun sounds like a good solution to me too.

CB longs fired from a rifle are no louder than a pellet gun. From a pistol they are as loud as a short. Fired from a rifle a CB long will penetrate a 2x4.

So if the pellet gun works, I'd use it.

Sevens · July 1, 2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

You'd be much better off shooting them through a handgun in order to minimize the chance of a squib (and to make clearing the squib much easier, too).

Easier for guarding against and clearing squibs, but goes completely in the other direction for reduction of sound, which is the whole point of the exercise.

**Unclenick** · July 1, 2009, 01:35 AM

One of the three sections of this Finnish gunwriter's site describes a .308 Mauser 98 blown up by 3.1 grains of VV N320 pistol powder during squib load development. I can't vouch for the voracity of it, but assuming it is an accurate description of a real event, it certainly involved a charge quantity small enough that the destruction could not be explained by double, triple, or even septuple charging.

If you study detonation vs. deflagration (normal burning) you quickly realize that some very peculiar conditions have to occur for detonation to happen in a rifle case. The scenarios I've explored include the charge splitting into two parts, one of which ignites and the other which does not, but which is in close enough proximity to the burning portion for it to be fused into a single mass by the heat. Detonation requires a medium for the shockwave to travel through igniting the explosive, and fused powder provides that. Also, unless you have a solid mass, it is hard to generate enough local pressure to damage the steel. Fused powder that releases its energy virtually all at once can do that. For N320, with a solid density of 1.38 gm/cc and an energy density of 4140 kJ/kg, its energy density works out to 5700 J/cc, which converts directly to a pressure of 826,656 psi.

So there is enough energy content and there are circumstances were it is conceivable detonation can occur and there are people who claim to have seen it happen. It just wouldn't be easy to make it happen even on purpose, which is why labs can't reliably replicate it, I'm sure. In any event, those reports have in common that it takes a lot of empty room in the case. My guess is that a .22 rimfire case has so much primer flame for the size of the space that it would be difficult or impossible for any amount of powder in it to escape ignition, and for that reason doubt detonation could occur in that format. But I have no proven theory, so I can't claim to know? The suggestion for BB and CB caps is likely the safest approach if for no other reason than it gets you out of disassembling and reassembling the .22's.

Vote For David · July 1, 2009, 07:57 AM

Hey thanks for the fast responses guys.

"Cat" actually used to be the solution, but it died and none of the new ones in the area are macho enough to go find dinner in a tree (or whatever it did to catch them)

I don't like the idea of wasting kinetic energy out the other side of a bird. If I had a bigger slug (pellets = 8grain) moving slower, there would be less wasted energy and, I hope, more falling-over-dead birds. A .177 makes an awfully non-lethal wound if you don't get the pea-brain or vital organs. Also a rifle loads faster than 10 pumps on the pellet gun!

The seal on the refitted bullets is decidedly NOT tight.

Squibs: only a hassle, a minor inconvenience. If you can't tell the difference in a squib and a good shot, shooting alone in a quiet area, you aren't shooting enough. The CCIs I shot off the other day sounded like the pellet gun with one pump: all "ping" and no "pop". Plus the target empty water bottle stood there and laughed at me.

Pulling the bullets and reseating them is kind of fun, actually.

Keep it coming, but can we NOT have this degenerate into "nuh-uh!" / "uh-huh" level debate over the possibility of detonation?

Sport45 · July 1, 2009, 08:10 AM

Don't discount the effectiveness of the pellet gun. I know when I shoot a cottontail with my Benjamin .22 pellet rifle he drops on the spot. When shot with a CB Long I often have to dispatch them with a second shot. That seemed counter-intuitive to me since you can hear the CB hitting them like a hammer.

I attribute this to the pellet gun being much more accurate at 20 yards than a rifle with CB caps and there must be some shock value to the higher velocity pellet.

Sevens · July 1, 2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Keep it coming, but can we NOT have this degenerate into "nuh-uh!" / "uh-huh" level debate over the possibility of detonation?

But...but...BUT... isn't this what you ASKED in your original post? Whether or not you can cause detonation by loading .22 rimfires with less powder than they come as shipped?!

Are you seriously asking this forum if we know the answer to something which high-dollar laboratories cannot replicate in a controlled enviroment?

Okay then-- as the recently placed President of the Association of Detonation Studies, I will give you the final word. YES, detonation is real, but NO, it will not occur in a .22 rimfire on your property. This is an iron clad guarantee. Be sure to contact the Foundation for the Association of Detonation Studies for the full refund of your rifle, fingers and eyeballs in the event our official statement is in error.

In the meantime, go bust some more pigeons. I might suggest you next employ George Carlin's methods for rodent removal-- gather up a few of them and send them to a psychiatric symposium which convinces them that they are at the wrong house so that they leave willingly and go hassle someone else.

SL1 · July 1, 2009, 09:09 AM

I had a couple of squirrel problems that I handled with a pellet gun. It is a 1000 fps .177 caliber gun with a 6 power scope. It is far more accurate than I am. My problem is not a "rainbow trajectory" with 8.5 grain pellets, but rather that the bore is below the line of sight through the scope so that I must shoot high enough to compensate for the lack of bullet rise when I am inside the "zero" range. Anyway, I zeroed at 50 feet and made up a table of hold points on the mil-dot reticle as a function of range, and can hit anything out to 50 yards, now.

With respect to non-lethal "shoot throughs" I had the same problem with squirrels when using the most accurate pellet for my gun, which is a dome-point. I switched to a hollow point "Crowmagnum" and found that it was much more lethal. The squirrels are pretty tough, but don't last long when shot through the lungs with a Crowmagnum. I did see one that lasted at least 3 weeks when shot through with the dome-point. (I assume that he completely recovered, but he did not give me another shot, and does not attempt to chew into my house any more, so at least I got a solution.)

One point of wisdom: I had previously tried to compare the terminal ballistics of the dome-points and hollow-point pellets by shooting plastic milk bottles filled with water. Both would penetrate from side to side but not end-to-end. No difference was apparent when the pellets were recovered from the jugs when shot into the end. The hollow point did not expand, as we expect with firearms ammo. But, the squirrels definitely can tell a difference that the milk jugs did not reveal. Maybe it is that the piece of milk jug wall that was punched-out by the pellet kept the hollow-point from expanding by filling the point with something that did not allow hydraulic pressure to push out on the sides of the hollow cavity. But, maybe it was just the shock of the pellets is different, and the hollow point just transfers more energy to the target before it exits because it is blunter to begin with.

When shooting up into the air, remember that the pellet is going to land somewhere. I did some crude terminal velocity calculations for my 8 grain dome points, and it seems like they would end-up falling straight down at about 60 mph. That does not sound very dangerous. Stones that weigh more than that are being thrown faster than that around any highway travelled by cars going more than 30 mph, and people walk along roadways all the time. I am not sure what to expect from a 32 or 40 grain .22 caliber bullet launched by a priming mixture or some powder. But, I have read that a .22 LR can be lethal to a person at up to one mile range. So, I would expect the various lesser .22 caliber rounds would pose more risk to surrounding citizens than the .177 grain pellets when shot into the air past a lucky pigeon.

SL1

Dilbert · July 1, 2009, 09:09 AM

I've killed my fair share of pigeons, all I used was my wife's Gamo pellet pistol. I'm not sure which model but those wadcutter pellets put them down, I'd say only a couple needed a follow up shot. But that was before I had the police called on me by a neighbor. Check your local laws to make sure it is legal in your area. I don't know about Texas, but in Tucson it is definitely illegal within city limits.

oneounceload · July 1, 2009, 09:17 AM

Maybe try a different type of .177 pellet. My 177 will kill squirrels and pigeon-sized birds quite readily.

If you HAVE to be quiet due to neighbors, get the $200 stamp and buy a suppressor for a 22

jmorris · July 1, 2009, 09:30 AM

CB caps and a supressor along with a bolt action souds like your dryfiring until whatever you shot at gets hit.

ZeSpectre · July 1, 2009, 09:38 AM

My backyard varmit solutions have been as follows.

For small/medium nuisance birds (starlings and so forth) up to small crows.

CO2 Pistol - Crosman 2240 (With PolyMag "Predator" Pellets) Which DO actually expand nicely for an airgun pellet!

For bigger crows and rodents.

Pump gun - Crosman 1377C (with Crosman Premier Super Point pellets or the .177 PolyMag "Predator" pellets)

And don't try to tell me that pump gun isn't enough. I've dropped many small possum DRT from 6-20 ft with that Crosman pump and the Super Point ammo and I've dropped larger Possum with "through the lungs" shots as well.

spacemanspiff · July 1, 2009, 12:05 PM

My place is on a nicely sized plot of land, lots of trees, so the neighbors never know or care when I try to lower the squirrel population. Using a .22 pellet.
They are hardy little beasts! I pumped one with about 4 or 5 hits from beneath, probably didnt get good hits because of the small branches in the way.

If I had the cash I'd go grab a .22 pistol and those colibris, slap a red dot on it, and go to town with them.

Hmmm, Ken, what kind of deal can you work me on a .22 pistol? ruger Mk II? or Browning? Maybe I trade off an old single shot .20 gauge?

Brian Pfleuger · July 1, 2009, 12:16 PM

Get a smooth bore air rifle and use BBs instead of pellets. No "poof".

Not to mention that if you get one of the "old school" 10 pump type guns it is very easy to control the power.... and they're cheap, probably $40.

Wildalaska · July 1, 2009, 12:22 PM

Spiffy why you asking me bro, do what you are supposed to do, walk in, go behind the counter, play with the guns, set a price, call yourself in, ring it up.....

WildyouareselfserveAlaska ™

Shoney · July 1, 2009, 01:07 PM

Your loads, like some obnoxious peoples derrière, are half. You need to get a hole! Then you can pigeon hole ‘em.

Vote For David · July 1, 2009, 02:52 PM

The .177 is used with hollow pointed Crosman Premier pellets. But they're still .177/8gr slugs. I don't mind shooting "up" at pigeons with them because even at 700FPS the potential for damage/injury downrange is about nil, especially after hitting a few leaves, branches, or pieces of bird on the way up.

If I could get a 40gr. .22 that just barely cleared the barrel with enough velocity to keep it within +/- 1 inch of point of aim at maybe 25 yds, that would be great. Of course I could send a regular one out at 700 to maybe 1200FPS, but that'd be a) loud and b) dangerous to the neighbors & their windshields. The whole point is minimizing damage potential downrange eh?

Lethality of the pellet gun: The current record is 5 shots for a single bird, all of them hits; that was an exceptionally tough bird! Maybe it was just sympathetic nervous system activity, but it was still flapping after a head AND a neck shot, plus the other 3. I was on the way to get a hatchet to finish the thing off but it died finally. I've had quite a few 1 shot kills, some with a bit of flapping on the ground, some DRT. This is not a problem of not being able to kill the birds, but I want to do it harder!

I read online that standard .22LR pressure is 25000CUP. It seems pretty far-fetched to me that a small fraction of 1 grain of powder would generate that in a poorly-sealed case, especially in light of the comment about the small case being (probably) filled with the flash from the primer all the way round the rim.

Hmmmm...

James R. Burke · July 1, 2009, 06:58 PM

I have had great results with the c.b. short if your rifle can shoot shorts. If its auto just manualy eject. They are very quiet like a pellet rifle, and are pretty accurate out to 35 yards or so. Probably alot farther if you got to know them good. I think they also make the longs and long rifle.

cornbush · July 1, 2009, 07:07 PM

+1 On the CB shorts. I used to get paid on slow days to go out to an old grainery where we stored equipment and shoot pigeons. Noise had to be low so I used the shorts. They worked great, If they exited they would not punch through the tin roof either, they rarely ever exited. We tried the pellet rifles but they only killed on about half the hits. I shot the CB shorts out of a Browning BL-22 and a Ruger 10/22. The 10/22 had to be single loaded but it was fun, and I got paid to do it!!

m&p45acp10+1 · July 1, 2009, 07:25 PM

I have good results from my .177 Daisy Powerline break bbl. it puts the wad cutters out at 1,000 fps. Has a variable scope, or can be used with the true glo sights that came on it. I think I paid $75 for it at a sporting good store as a clearance item. It is a bit on the heavy side but works, it is not real quiet, especialy with the Gamo Raptor PBA pellets as they are supersonic and the neighbors at the last house could hear when I fired with them.
I have used it here in town to kill 2 raccoons. Animal control was here and I offered to use my pellet gun instead of a cop using a pistol in a residetal area. 2 shots later there were 2 dead raccoons. I also took a bird out with a head shot on a fence at 30 yards with it so I know it will kill birds with ease.

Demaiter · July 1, 2009, 07:41 PM

if your .22 is an old or worn or used or some sucker that you don't care about much you could try out those federal bird shot loads in the .22lr - I got no clue how'd they work. You might be able to pick up a used .22 for like $20 for somewhere... If not I'd stick with the pellet gun and knock em dead.

A .22 pellet gun I'd say would be just about ideal or a .177 with a tad higher velocity.

View Poll Results: Should I Try It?
Yes, Definitely, No Problems!	3	16.67%
No, Definitely, Your Gun ASPLODE!!!!1!	3	16.67%
Maybe.	3	16.67%
Seriously?	9	50.00%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

June 30, 2009, 11:33 PM	#1
Vote For David Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Pflugerville, Texas Posts: 15	Keep Me From Blowing Up My Rifle, Please. I have been considering a few solutions to a pigeon problem and so far the best I can come up with is a .177 pellet which is either rainbow-like in trajectory or gives a puff of feathers out the other side of a through-and-through. I got some Aguila Super Colibris which are almost as quiet (one requirement for my solution is low noise) but they cost . . . considerably more than pellets. I got it into my genius brain to pull some CCI Mini-Mags' bullets, dump the (one grain of) powder, reload the bullet, and shoot those for some seriously cheap, seriously quiet, VERY high impact (for a pigeon) loads. How did it work? Let me tell you, it was squibtastic! In a Marlin 60, the 40gr. bullets got all of 3" or so down the barrel. The Aguilas have a fatter rim and I'm thinking either more or higher-brissance primer compound than the CCIs. So I said to myself, "self, put a teeny bit of powder back in the case and shoot that" but then alarm bells went off about undercharge detonation and I had to ask: If I seriously undercharge a .22LR, on a scale of 1 to 10, what does the all-knowing intarwebz say about my chances of a larger explosion than I bargained for? I searched here and even asked Mr. Google, but couldn't find a solid answer. Cliffs: We're talking .22LR here. If I use significantly less than 1 grain of powder, say 1/5 or less of the same powder that CCI puts in a Mini-Mag, will it make my gun asplode? __________________ Jesus loves you. ------------- Check out my blog!

June 30, 2009, 11:48 PM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I have read and followed most every link ever put up on the subject of "detonation" having to do with too little powder, powder laying horizontally in the cartridge case and burning along it's length from the top... and STILL I've not seen any tangible proof that this is real. And no lab has ever been able to replicate it. So I'm skeptic on the subject of detonation. Other are sold on it. I don't pretend to know what they know and I certainly don't attempt to talk them out of it. It;s just more that I've never been talked in to it. Now, with rimfire .22, let's take a look. First, where does the firing pin impact the rim on the rifle in question? Is it on the bottom, 6 o'clock spot? If YES, then it seems to me that no matter how little powder you've got in there, it's going to be directly hit with primer flame. Next, I wonder if you are getting a proper seal when you are yanking bullets from a heeled round like .22 rimfire. Lastly, I don't think you could possibly hurt any modern .22 caliber rifle with an undercharge of powder until you lodge a bullet in the bore, don't realize it (or forget it) and then send another. There is where your safety issue lies, at least IMO. Other option for quiet? CCI CB long. Very quiet, very light. I don't know how it'd compare to the Super Colibri. I'm not following what the problem is with the air rifle. Rainbow trajectory, bad. Through and through with a cloud of feathers-- that's sounds like it works! What have I missed? Maybe get a cat. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 1, 2009, 12:32 AM	#6
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The pellet gun sounds like a good solution to me too. CB longs fired from a rifle are no louder than a pellet gun. From a pistol they are as loud as a short. Fired from a rifle a CB long will penetrate a 2x4. So if the pellet gun works, I'd use it. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 1, 2009, 01:35 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	One of the three sections of this Finnish gunwriter's site describes a .308 Mauser 98 blown up by 3.1 grains of VV N320 pistol powder during squib load development. I can't vouch for the voracity of it, but assuming it is an accurate description of a real event, it certainly involved a charge quantity small enough that the destruction could not be explained by double, triple, or even septuple charging. If you study detonation vs. deflagration (normal burning) you quickly realize that some very peculiar conditions have to occur for detonation to happen in a rifle case. The scenarios I've explored include the charge splitting into two parts, one of which ignites and the other which does not, but which is in close enough proximity to the burning portion for it to be fused into a single mass by the heat. Detonation requires a medium for the shockwave to travel through igniting the explosive, and fused powder provides that. Also, unless you have a solid mass, it is hard to generate enough local pressure to damage the steel. Fused powder that releases its energy virtually all at once can do that. For N320, with a solid density of 1.38 gm/cc and an energy density of 4140 kJ/kg, its energy density works out to 5700 J/cc, which converts directly to a pressure of 826,656 psi. So there is enough energy content and there are circumstances were it is conceivable detonation can occur and there are people who claim to have seen it happen. It just wouldn't be easy to make it happen even on purpose, which is why labs can't reliably replicate it, I'm sure. In any event, those reports have in common that it takes a lot of empty room in the case. My guess is that a .22 rimfire case has so much primer flame for the size of the space that it would be difficult or impossible for any amount of powder in it to escape ignition, and for that reason doubt detonation could occur in that format. But I have no proven theory, so I can't claim to know? The suggestion for BB and CB caps is likely the safest approach if for no other reason than it gets you out of disassembling and reassembling the .22's. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 1, 2009, 12:23 AM	#4
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Personally, I find the idea of shooting super-light loads through a rifle to be a very bad one. You'd be much better off shooting them through a handgun in order to minimize the chance of a squib (and to make clearing the squib much easier, too). If you were to get a revolver, you could easily load it with .22 shorts, which are very quiet and would be more than enough to ruin the day of even the most steelhearted pigeon.

July 1, 2009, 07:57 AM	#9
Vote For David Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Pflugerville, Texas Posts: 15	Hey thanks for the fast responses guys. "Cat" actually used to be the solution, but it died and none of the new ones in the area are macho enough to go find dinner in a tree (or whatever it did to catch them) I don't like the idea of wasting kinetic energy out the other side of a bird. If I had a bigger slug (pellets = 8grain) moving slower, there would be less wasted energy and, I hope, more falling-over-dead birds. A .177 makes an awfully non-lethal wound if you don't get the pea-brain or vital organs. Also a rifle loads faster than 10 pumps on the pellet gun! The seal on the refitted bullets is decidedly NOT tight. Squibs: only a hassle, a minor inconvenience. If you can't tell the difference in a squib and a good shot, shooting alone in a quiet area, you aren't shooting enough. The CCIs I shot off the other day sounded like the pellet gun with one pump: all "ping" and no "pop". Plus the target empty water bottle stood there and laughed at me. Pulling the bullets and reseating them is kind of fun, actually. Keep it coming, but can we NOT have this degenerate into "nuh-uh!" / "uh-huh" level debate over the possibility of detonation? __________________ Jesus loves you. ------------- Check out my blog!

July 1, 2009, 08:10 AM	#10
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Don't discount the effectiveness of the pellet gun. I know when I shoot a cottontail with my Benjamin .22 pellet rifle he drops on the spot. When shot with a CB Long I often have to dispatch them with a second shot. That seemed counter-intuitive to me since you can hear the CB hitting them like a hammer. I attribute this to the pellet gun being much more accurate at 20 yards than a rifle with CB caps and there must be some shock value to the higher velocity pellet. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 1, 2009, 09:09 AM	#12
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I had a couple of squirrel problems that I handled with a pellet gun. It is a 1000 fps .177 caliber gun with a 6 power scope. It is far more accurate than I am. My problem is not a "rainbow trajectory" with 8.5 grain pellets, but rather that the bore is below the line of sight through the scope so that I must shoot high enough to compensate for the lack of bullet rise when I am inside the "zero" range. Anyway, I zeroed at 50 feet and made up a table of hold points on the mil-dot reticle as a function of range, and can hit anything out to 50 yards, now. With respect to non-lethal "shoot throughs" I had the same problem with squirrels when using the most accurate pellet for my gun, which is a dome-point. I switched to a hollow point "Crowmagnum" and found that it was much more lethal. The squirrels are pretty tough, but don't last long when shot through the lungs with a Crowmagnum. I did see one that lasted at least 3 weeks when shot through with the dome-point. (I assume that he completely recovered, but he did not give me another shot, and does not attempt to chew into my house any more, so at least I got a solution.) One point of wisdom: I had previously tried to compare the terminal ballistics of the dome-points and hollow-point pellets by shooting plastic milk bottles filled with water. Both would penetrate from side to side but not end-to-end. No difference was apparent when the pellets were recovered from the jugs when shot into the end. The hollow point did not expand, as we expect with firearms ammo. But, the squirrels definitely can tell a difference that the milk jugs did not reveal. Maybe it is that the piece of milk jug wall that was punched-out by the pellet kept the hollow-point from expanding by filling the point with something that did not allow hydraulic pressure to push out on the sides of the hollow cavity. But, maybe it was just the shock of the pellets is different, and the hollow point just transfers more energy to the target before it exits because it is blunter to begin with. When shooting up into the air, remember that the pellet is going to land somewhere. I did some crude terminal velocity calculations for my 8 grain dome points, and it seems like they would end-up falling straight down at about 60 mph. That does not sound very dangerous. Stones that weigh more than that are being thrown faster than that around any highway travelled by cars going more than 30 mph, and people walk along roadways all the time. I am not sure what to expect from a 32 or 40 grain .22 caliber bullet launched by a priming mixture or some powder. But, I have read that a .22 LR can be lethal to a person at up to one mile range. So, I would expect the various lesser .22 caliber rounds would pose more risk to surrounding citizens than the .177 grain pellets when shot into the air past a lucky pigeon. SL1

July 1, 2009, 09:09 AM	#13
Dilbert Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: DMAFB, AZ Posts: 342	I've killed my fair share of pigeons, all I used was my wife's Gamo pellet pistol. I'm not sure which model but those wadcutter pellets put them down, I'd say only a couple needed a follow up shot. But that was before I had the police called on me by a neighbor. Check your local laws to make sure it is legal in your area. I don't know about Texas, but in Tucson it is definitely illegal within city limits. __________________ Gun Control-gun con·trol n. definition 1. The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker received that fatal bullet wound. 2. The ability to hit what you are aiming at.

July 1, 2009, 09:17 AM	#14
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Maybe try a different type of .177 pellet. My 177 will kill squirrels and pigeon-sized birds quite readily. If you HAVE to be quiet due to neighbors, get the $200 stamp and buy a suppressor for a 22

July 1, 2009, 09:30 AM	#15
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	CB caps and a supressor along with a bolt action souds like your dryfiring until whatever you shot at gets hit.

July 1, 2009, 09:38 AM	#16
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	My backyard varmit solutions have been as follows. For small/medium nuisance birds (starlings and so forth) up to small crows. CO2 Pistol - Crosman 2240 (With PolyMag "Predator" Pellets) Which DO actually expand nicely for an airgun pellet! For bigger crows and rodents. Pump gun - Crosman 1377C (with Crosman Premier Super Point pellets or the .177 PolyMag "Predator" pellets) And don't try to tell me that pump gun isn't enough. I've dropped many small possum DRT from 6-20 ft with that Crosman pump and the Super Point ammo and I've dropped larger Possum with "through the lungs" shots as well. __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

July 1, 2009, 12:05 PM	#17
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	My place is on a nicely sized plot of land, lots of trees, so the neighbors never know or care when I try to lower the squirrel population. Using a .22 pellet. They are hardy little beasts! I pumped one with about 4 or 5 hits from beneath, probably didnt get good hits because of the small branches in the way. If I had the cash I'd go grab a .22 pistol and those colibris, slap a red dot on it, and go to town with them. Hmmm, Ken, what kind of deal can you work me on a .22 pistol? ruger Mk II? or Browning? Maybe I trade off an old single shot .20 gauge? __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

July 1, 2009, 12:16 PM	#18
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Get a smooth bore air rifle and use BBs instead of pellets. No "poof". Not to mention that if you get one of the "old school" 10 pump type guns it is very easy to control the power.... and they're cheap, probably $40. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 1, 2009 at 12:26 PM.

July 1, 2009, 12:22 PM	#19
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Spiffy why you asking me bro, do what you are supposed to do, walk in, go behind the counter, play with the guns, set a price, call yourself in, ring it up..... WildyouareselfserveAlaska ™

July 1, 2009, 01:07 PM	#20
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Your loads, like some obnoxious peoples derrière, are half. You need to get a hole! Then you can pigeon hole ‘em. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

July 1, 2009, 02:52 PM	#21
Vote For David Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Pflugerville, Texas Posts: 15	The .177 is used with hollow pointed Crosman Premier pellets. But they're still .177/8gr slugs. I don't mind shooting "up" at pigeons with them because even at 700FPS the potential for damage/injury downrange is about nil, especially after hitting a few leaves, branches, or pieces of bird on the way up. If I could get a 40gr. .22 that just barely cleared the barrel with enough velocity to keep it within +/- 1 inch of point of aim at maybe 25 yds, that would be great. Of course I could send a regular one out at 700 to maybe 1200FPS, but that'd be a) loud and b) dangerous to the neighbors & their windshields. The whole point is minimizing damage potential downrange eh? Lethality of the pellet gun: The current record is 5 shots for a single bird, all of them hits; that was an exceptionally tough bird! Maybe it was just sympathetic nervous system activity, but it was still flapping after a head AND a neck shot, plus the other 3. I was on the way to get a hatchet to finish the thing off but it died finally. I've had quite a few 1 shot kills, some with a bit of flapping on the ground, some DRT. This is not a problem of not being able to kill the birds, but I want to do it *harder!* I read online that standard .22LR pressure is 25000CUP. It seems pretty far-fetched to me that a small fraction of 1 grain of powder would generate that in a poorly-sealed case, especially in light of the comment about the small case being (probably) filled with the flash from the primer all the way round the rim. Hmmmm... __________________ Jesus loves you. ------------- Check out my blog!

July 1, 2009, 06:58 PM	#22
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I have had great results with the c.b. short if your rifle can shoot shorts. If its auto just manualy eject. They are very quiet like a pellet rifle, and are pretty accurate out to 35 yards or so. Probably alot farther if you got to know them good. I think they also make the longs and long rifle.

July 1, 2009, 07:07 PM	#23
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	+1 On the CB shorts. I used to get paid on slow days to go out to an old grainery where we stored equipment and shoot pigeons. Noise had to be low so I used the shorts. They worked great, If they exited they would not punch through the tin roof either, they rarely ever exited. We tried the pellet rifles but they only killed on about half the hits. I shot the CB shorts out of a Browning BL-22 and a Ruger 10/22. The 10/22 had to be single loaded but it was fun, and I got paid to do it!!

July 1, 2009, 07:25 PM	#24
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I have good results from my .177 Daisy Powerline break bbl. it puts the wad cutters out at 1,000 fps. Has a variable scope, or can be used with the true glo sights that came on it. I think I paid $75 for it at a sporting good store as a clearance item. It is a bit on the heavy side but works, it is not real quiet, especialy with the Gamo Raptor PBA pellets as they are supersonic and the neighbors at the last house could hear when I fired with them. I have used it here in town to kill 2 raccoons. Animal control was here and I offered to use my pellet gun instead of a cop using a pistol in a residetal area. 2 shots later there were 2 dead raccoons. I also took a bird out with a head shot on a fence at 30 yards with it so I know it will kill birds with ease.

July 1, 2009, 07:41 PM	#25
Demaiter Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2008 Posts: 242	if your .22 is an old or worn or used or some sucker that you don't care about much you could try out those federal bird shot loads in the .22lr - I got no clue how'd they work. You might be able to pick up a used .22 for like $20 for somewhere... If not I'd stick with the pellet gun and knock em dead. A .22 pellet gun I'd say would be just about ideal or a .177 with a tad higher velocity.